124: Ten Job Interview Tips

Speaker 2: 0:01

thing that's the gift that keeps on giving oh man, so good it'll it'll, I think, for our entire life. We'll never forget.

Speaker 1: 0:09

Do it live kids these days don't, don't, don't understand the value of do it live they don't.

Speaker 2: 0:14

They don't welcome back to corporate strategy the podcast. It could have been an email. I'm bruce and I'm alex, that's right. We brought on capitalist correspondent Alex Restrepo because Clark's on a much needed European vacation for the next two weeks. I'm a little jealous.

Speaker 1: 0:34

How are you? I'm not jealous at all. He deserves it. I mean, he does deserve it, but who wouldn't love a good two week vacay? Well, sure, I mean I, I guess, jealous. The problem I have with jealous is it implies like you're resentful, right oh yeah, no, I'm not saying yeah, maybe just slightly envious, like, oh, me too, I want to. I want to also go, but I'm so happy for you to be doing. We need a new word that means that, yeah, we need a very happy you're doing the thing.

Speaker 2: 1:01

I wish I was also doing the thing we do need a word for that, because I do feel like even envious still implies like I still wish I had that more than you did.

Speaker 1: 1:11

I think so. You know, maybe in olden times, right, people just couldn't let other people be happy. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Yeah, maybe that's you know. Can't do that anymore, though that doesn't really fit with our modern vibe. Yeah, man, Read the vibes. We got to impress the happiness any chance we can get. How are you doing?

Speaker 1: 1:30

I'm doing fantastic man. So you know, we just had a day off here in the States yesterday, so, you know, had a good party, pretty chill right now, you watching fireworks. No, we didn't really care to, actually, so we just instead enjoyed a nice pool party, chilling out, you know, vibing with some cool music and some good food and friends and laughs, and that's it. Well, really, we're just trying to make sure that our animals were okay, so we didn't want to expose them to too many fireworks stuff or anything like that. I love it.

Speaker 2: 2:00

And I agree. I think that you did it the right way.

Speaker 1: 2:09

That's the right way to do it for all the little ears that can't handle the sounds. Yeah, some people listening overseas may not understand what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Oh yeah, so in America, the country which we reside in United States of America, yes, the US of A, as they call it. We celebrate our Independence Day every July the 4th, and I don't know. I mean, it's probably been going on you probably know better than I do since the year after declaration was signed, but people love to launch fireworks till all hours of the morning on July 4th.

Speaker 1: 2:40

Yeah, I was one of them until I realized how bad of an effect it has on on some dogs most dogs and so I was like, oh, that's not cool. So birds.

Speaker 2: 2:49

You know, birds hate them.

Speaker 1: 2:51

It's just, uh, it's rough by the way Um certain certain folks with PTSD.

Speaker 2: 2:57

Yes.

Speaker 1: 2:58

It also affects them. So, you know, try to be sensitive to that. But it's, this is after the fact, right? So in 364 days, everybody be aware I'm, you know it, my.

Speaker 2: 3:09

My history with fireworks is interesting. I don't really care about them, period, because I grew up with a disney family. Like my mom worked at disney, they went to disney a lot when I was a kid and I got desensitized to fireworks, so now I just don't care, like they mean nothing to me.

Speaker 1: 3:25

And as soon as I found out it impacted animals, I was like well, we're going to eliminate this from so side note it sounds like your mom got jobs just to hook you up, Like well knowing the other job she had the, the well you know it.

Speaker 2: 3:41

It is interesting there was a nice byproduct with both of those jobs, but she took the Disney job long before I was born because her whole side of the family was Disney integrated.

Speaker 1: 3:58

My grandfather was an artist for Disney and created a lot of their window displays that are no longer visible in the park.

Speaker 2: 4:04

How's that.

Speaker 1: 4:04

That's terrible for his legacy. Yeah, yeah, we have pictures, though. You know it's OK.

Speaker 2: 4:06

All we are is dust in the wind. That's true. You know disney will be gone one day, so it's. It is what it is.

Speaker 1: 4:15

How are you doing uh, by the way yeah, better than yesterday.

Speaker 2: 4:19

Something's going on my sinuses so I'm uh trying to get through it best I can. Hydration is key. I find that when the sinuses act up, lots of water, just so much water you're. You're in the bathroom every 30 minutes. But better than yesterday, so can't complain.

Speaker 1: 4:36

Can't complain at all I will say barely notice it in your voice, you're, you know, you sound great Well it doesn't really impact the throat.

Speaker 2: 4:45

It's all up in the eye and upper nasal cavity area.

Speaker 1: 4:48

It's strange, I figured anything that affects your nasal passages would affect your voice, though.

Speaker 2: 4:53

Yeah, it's weird. I have weird sinuses. According to my ENT, it's not my sinuses at all. This is neurological, but I'm like I don't know, bro, no medicines work and it just comes out of the blue. So I probably should go see a neurologist and see if they can get me some kind of painkiller that works, though. All right, you want to get into this? April problems, let's do it. So our topic for the day is interviewing, and you found a really great Instagram post that we'll put in the corporate strategy chat in the Discord after the show's up, but it's 10 things you need to avoid saying at all costs in job interviews. It comes from Jobs with Shay and you want to work through these live.

Speaker 1: 5:39

Yeah, I think we should. I think that you know we'll just read them and we can take turns reading them and then just give our gut reactions and maybe some real world examples of ways we've used these hacks, because I think, intuitively, I've used some of these hacks already throughout my life, so I think they actually they're a pretty good summary of smart things. So for for background, number one, if this is the first time listening or maybe you just don't know this about myself or about Bruce but you know we've done both, right, we've interviewed for jobs and we've interviewed folks to hire for jobs, right. So I know at one point I did, I think, 150 interviews in one month for a job I had where I was hiring an entire team, and so I've done a lot of interviews, and so I do know what good looks like and I also know what a little bit more cringe looks like and we can filter out, and I think you've had some experience with that recently as well, right, oh yeah, I think I've done.

Speaker 2: 6:33

let's see, I've interviewed at least 10 people in the last four months, so I've been doing lots of interviews for lots of roles.

Speaker 1: 6:43

So just establishing our bona fides there in terms of you know, there's a reason. We can take a look at this from both ends of the spectrum, but yeah, if we get into it. So the post and, like you said, we'll link it. But Shay from at jobs with Shay, said you know 10 things you need to avoid saying at all costs and job interviews, and I'm going to have to agree that overall it's really good advice.

Speaker 1: 7:05

So the very first one, talking negatively about your previous company, so like the example that she gives right, is you know, if you can try to say something like you like your manager, you like your company, you like the office, you like the role, and then why are you leaving? Progression, right, simple, and so she's trying to summarize a very complex concept here. But but look, you know, bruce, we we both had situations where we didn't necessarily like some of the stuff going on at our previous companies, and that may have been a component of why we left. What do you think about her advice here? On this very first one, I love it.

Speaker 2: 7:44

I'm a big proponent of gratitude as well, like showing appreciation to your company. I know when I was leaving my previous job to come to my current one, in the interview I told the CEO. I said I'm nothing but grateful for my previous job, simply because it gave me so many opportunities to grow and move around. And you know, now I feel like my my opportunity for growth isn't with that company, but with the company I'm applying towards. And he really liked that answer and it also gave him the understanding that's like oh yeah, bruce is not just going to go back to this company six months from now. It's like he's got what he wanted from them, he's grateful and now he has this opportunity to grow. What about you?

Speaker 1: 8:26

No, I think overall it makes sense. I will say that my personal motto. I have a few, but I definitely live by the concept of honesty being the best policy that old adage.

Speaker 1: 8:39

And so if I had a bad situation and they want to know about it, I'll tell them. And so if I had a bad situation and they want to know about it, I'll tell them. But I do try to focus on the positive. So there's this concept of push-pull, right, like when you're going for a new job. Are you going for the new job because you're being pulled to it, because you think the job is so good, or are you being pushed to it because you're so unhappy with where you are Right? And anytime you're in an interview, the balance should definitely tip towards a pull. The potential employer wants to hear that you're excited to join them, not that you're excited to leave an old situation. So, even if you do incorporate some honesty about the reality of a situation, always weigh the balance towards I'm excited to join your company. It's not that I'm excited to leave my existing situation.

Speaker 2: 9:27

I love that. I think that is a great way to think about it, and I've heard you say push-pull before, but I don't ever think I've heard you say it in terms of job hunting or interviewing, and that is a phenomenal analogy. I think all the listeners need to write that one down. Yeah, there'll be a quiz.

Speaker 1: 9:46

It'll be in the Discord. You ready to go on to number two?

Speaker 2: 9:50

All right. Number two I'm amazing at what I do. Don't tell them, paint the picture and Shay lists, stories, examples, experiences, results and accolades. This one I completely agree with. You cannot just rest on the laurels of your own word. You need to not only and I would say like it's not just stories and examples. Give them the details that prove you did what you did. You know, this is just based on some experiences I've had recently, but I'll ask people a question and they'll said oh yeah, we went off and we built this campaign. It's like well, I understand that you can build a campaign that you wouldn't have applied for the job if you couldn't do that. But what did you do specifically to make that campaign work? And usually when I ask that qualifying question, I do get some deeper answers. But if you can bring that off the cuff it's all the better for the interviewer.

Speaker 1: 10:44

If you can bring that off the cuff, it's all the better for the interviewer. Yeah, so what you just described right is what I, when I was interviewing a lot when I was a manager, it was told to me as what is known as a behavioral question, and the reason we broke it down into two categories was because, generally, I've both interviewed for and interviewed other people for technical roles and so you'll have tech interviews, right, which are they're kind of probing, to make sure you actually know what you say.

Speaker 1: 11:09

You know, and you know we've we've heard about those before, right, like Clark has talked a lot about, like interviewing for Google, right, and some of the questions he's had to answer there and a lot of those. They're kind of hybrid. Actually, some of those, those are hybrid between behavioral and technical, but, but ultimately, you're going to have technical questions and then behavioral questions. The reason I say that is because what we were trained to look for as hiring managers was something known as a SAR statement, s-a-r. S-a-r stands for situation action, resolution, right? So if I ask you a question, right, and all you say is I'm amazing at doing that, Great, right, you just went way down in the stack rank, right. But if, instead, you give me a very specific situation, right, like, hey, you know, tell me a time where you struggled at work and what you did to overcome it, okay, cool.

Speaker 1: 12:03

So we had this project to implement back in, you know, 2020, right, and we're in the middle of the pandemic and everybody was disparate, and so it was very hard to get together, but we found some collaboration tools. I was able to lead the project from a reverse timeline of when we needed a do buy and we were able to get together. Everybody had what they needed to do. I found it my part and I helped others be accountable and then, as a result, not only did we complete the project, but we completed it ahead of schedule, despite the situation and the pandemic. Now, that's a made up situation, right, but the reason I gave you that made up situation is because I gave you a situation. We had to resolve this project and we had some headwinds. I gave you an action. We we had to resolve this project and we had some headwinds.

Speaker 1: 12:56

I gave you an action. We found collaboration tools we were able to work on through the challenges and, as a result, we got this net benefit, whatever that is. Now, what do I mean by having them in your back pocket? Just think about stuff you've done in your entire career, because, remember, when you're interviewing, it doesn't have to be from your most recent job that you give an answer. So, when you're interviewing, just have four or five situations where you think you did pretty awesome and then break it down into that three pillar format of what was the situation, what action did you take and then what was the result? Resolution or, if you want to say B, benefit, what was the benefit from the action you took? And if you can have those ready, I guarantee you'll be ready for those behavioral questions.

Speaker 2: 13:36

I would also add if you don't have something from work experience because you're so fresh and new into the work environment Think about college projects If you volunteer, look at volunteer experiences you've had. If you do any kind of extracurricular activities that you can pull those stories in from, do that. It doesn't just have to be professional if it qualifies within the sort of working mindset 100%, completely agree yeah. Also, stats never hurt. If you have stats, don't be comfortable.

Speaker 1: 14:13

I gave you a made-up example, but if you can layer in metrics like 20% or this many days or this much profit, whatever, it is absolutely.

Speaker 2: 14:25

The thing about the stat is it proves that you measured something before and after the fact, which gives you that sort of total project overview. It just looks really good for the interviewee.

Speaker 1: 14:37

One additional side note. I happen to be in technical sales and metrics are so critical in technical sales. You have to have proof points and they have to be real, right, tangible, and metrics give that.

Speaker 2: 14:49

Completely agree. Shall we hit number three.

Speaker 1: 14:52

Number three my weakness is I'm a perfectionist.

Speaker 1: 14:55

Oh, and so the recommendation from Shay is if you are not one, don't say this. But then she doubles down and I and I got to agree. You know, even if you are one right, I still wouldn't use it right, cause it's overused. Instead, tell the truth. Not a weakness material to the role, mind you, but follow up with how you've adapted your working style to compensate for that weakness. This is a good one.

Speaker 1: 15:22

So, first of all, I would never say my weakness is I'm a perfectionist, for the exact reasons she stated. I would be concerned, right about how that's perceived, because that's terrible. I wouldn't want to hear that if I'm interviewing somebody, that's a pretty dumb thing to say. But the other thing is, again going back to honesty. Is the best policy, right? I would argue that if you don't cover areas where you're weak in an interview process, then you're going to be held to that expectation. You've just set yourself up for a bad user experience with the job. If you get it, yep, right, and so I think that you're setting yourself up for a trap that is unnecessary.

Speaker 1: 16:01

I'll be transparent about something Like I've taken on marketing roles and you know this right, where you know. Think about marketing what it is right, especially tech marketing, right, and I'm terrible at creating PowerPoint decks, slide decks terrible. It's one of my weaknesses, right. So I was more than honest, upfront about that during the interview process. I wanted to be incredibly clear Like, look, I can help you with crafting narratives and finding proof points and value and all that stuff.

Speaker 1: 16:30

I'm pretty good at all that stuff, but when it comes to physically making the art look good on a slide deck, that's just not something I'm good at, right, and you know, I got the job anyway because what I brought to the table was valuable enough that we could overlook that. But if I had said, oh, I don't have any weaknesses, or I didn't bring that up, and now that's an expectation of the role man, I would have been in some trouble, right. That would have been pretty bad. And so I would argue that making sure that you answer this honestly but I do agree with her follow up with how have you done something where you can compensate for that? Figure out a way to show that you're resilient despite that weakness.

Speaker 2: 17:10

But I think that's the best way to go you're resilient despite that weakness, but I think that's the best way to go. Yep, I love the follow-up piece. So, just being transparent, as usual, one of my biggest weaknesses is feedback cycles on work. I'll lone wolf it and I'll say it just like this. I go lone wolf for a little too long before seeking feedback from others. So the way I address this is by creating review cycles as I get done with first draft, second draft and make sure that the proper stakeholders look at what I'm doing. If I don't create these cycles or like create the plan for this kind of thing, I will go way too far before anyone else looks at the work I've done and we'll we'll miss out on crucial feedback. So I said you know it's a real world example of how you can tell about a weakness you have. That hasn't changed in me. I'll still lone wolf it if I don't set these goals for myself, but I know how to overcome it.

Speaker 1: 18:01

Listen, Bravo Six. Stop going dark, Stop.

Speaker 2: 18:04

I just love going dark. I can't help it All right.

Speaker 1: 18:09

Want to roll on to four.

Speaker 2: 18:10

Number four I'm ready to start on Monday. It signals that you don't have any value in your current company. Also gives you no wiggle room for a start date and they expect you to have a notice period. Don't let the excitement consume you. Once again, completely agree with all of Shay's points. I mean just the fact alone that you are so it's over eager, right Like you. It almost looks a little desperate, I would say.

Speaker 1: 18:37

So you know, this analogy gets pretty cringy real quick. But you know, to a certain extent, like the analogy of dating does kind of make sense, and you know, regardless of your situation, you've probably heard advice oh, you can't text them back within a certain time frame, right?

Speaker 1: 18:55

Like that whole, because it shows over eagerness, right, and it shows desperation. That's the quote unquote wisdom, right? Whether or not that's true in dating, I don't know. It's been a while. But when it comes to job interviews, I'm going to have to agree with this sentiment, right, that you don't want to be overeager, both in terms of what you're saying, like I'm ready to start right away, that's overeager. And also, when you follow up, don't necessarily follow up like the same day.

Speaker 1: 19:21

Well, if you had something like something to follow up on, I mean, let me take that back. If you said, you know, hey, I can get you that by the end of the day, of course do that. But in terms of like checking in on the status of the job, you know, give them some room, right, to like work, their process. So, yeah, I completely agree with this point that it makes sense, and I do like the idea that they're throwing in that Shay's throwing in about, you know. Think about how they're reading this. Are you going to give us notice when you go to leave us and go to another job from here? Because it sounds like you're not doing that for your current role, right? So that's another thing to think about in terms of how it's perceived.

Speaker 2: 20:00

One easy way to really make this work in your favor is you say I really want to make sure I give my team and those I work with an opportunity to be able to carry on when I'm gone. So I want to. I want to make sure that they've all got all the ends tied off they need before I leave, and boy that creates a lure about you.

Speaker 1: 20:20

I hope the class writes that one down, because you just gave the perfect example. That was really really good, right.

Speaker 2: 20:25

It's you're putting people over yourself and it just makes you so much more desirable to the new company.

Speaker 1: 20:31

It does make you desirable. People want to work with people they want to work with, and I know that sounds like a tautology, but the idea is I want to hire someone that I actually want to spend time with at work. So that's going to be somebody that I think is going to be accountable and is going to be a good team member that's going to pull their weight and look out for me as much as I look out for them. So just weight and look out for me as much as I look out for them. So you know, just keep that in mind.

Speaker 1: 20:53

It's good, it's really good, completely agree Number five yeah, telling them your current salary, sharing your salary at this stage completely caps your earning potential. Avoid side note your current salary is reflective of your old role, not the new one, so it shouldn't be mentioned at any stage, if possible. So here's the first time I partially disagree with Jay, and specifically what I mean by that is I do think that if you're going for a new role, unless you're in dire straits right, and I understand there are going to be times where that happens Unless you're in dire straits, your current salary should be the floor for your new salary, right? And so I do understand the idea that maybe there are going to be times in your life where you interview for a role that is significantly higher pay range than your current salary and you don't want to limit yourself from that perspective, right? So let's say you have a role and you're making $100,000 and you tell them, hey, I want to make more than that. And they say, okay, no problem, here's $110,000. And then it turns out that the role's range was $140,000 to $160,000, right, a year Now, all of a sudden, following her advice would have made sense in that situation.

Speaker 1: 22:06

But if you've done your homework right and you understand what the range is on the job right, and I will say that it can be hard to do your homework. I think the best way to do it is to talk to people that are in that role, if you can. The reason I say that is because I look at Glassdoor and all these other sites and their pay ranges always seem off to me, so they don't seem to reflect actuals is what I'll say. So unless you're going for a role where the pay range you think is significantly higher than when you're at, I would still use your current pay as like a ground floor going up from there, and so that's where I partially disagree. But I do get where Shay's going and I do agree with overall with what they're getting at.

Speaker 2: 22:48

Yeah, I think the important thing to consider here is mentality. Yeah, I think the important thing to consider here is mentality. The you know the effort of recruiting is a business trying to recruit you or someone like you. I think a lot of times our mentality is well, I need this job, they need you just as much as you need them. They wouldn't create the rec and budget the salary for this role had they not needed you in the first place. And if you go in with a mentality of, well, well, they need me just as much as I need them, I like your idea of salary as the floor and I do think it's weird because part of me thinks in early on in your career you kind of got to keep that guarded because you probably make less.

Speaker 2: 23:27

But 10 years into your career it's. It's very variable. I've been in places where mentioning how much I make actually filtered me out of the system because like well, we can't afford you anymore. And it's like well, I'm glad we didn't get further in this conversation to not find that out. So there is a little bit of push and pull to use your earlier analogy on whether you share or you don't. But I do really like the idea of always using it as a floor if you have to.

Speaker 1: 23:57

Yeah, and but I that's very insightful that earlier on in my so I am I haven't had like a jump in my career Like I've had earlier in my career, much earlier. So there were not once but twice in my earlier career that I doubled my salary in one move. So I've done that twice in my career and these were both significant moves where I was moving into a role that was higher performing, the expectations were higher. I would have limited myself if I had said you know, this is my floor, well, they're only going to give me 10 to 20 percent over that and I would have been, you know, kind of hosed Right. So the earlier my career, the advice is spot on. But you're right that where I am today, it potentially would create a process, like you said, where I'm wasting my time talking about the wrong role. That's simply not going to be at the right level where I'm at, completely agree, it's a.

Speaker 2: 24:58

It's a balancing act, like many of these points are.

Speaker 1: 25:01

Yeah, you want to go on to six. Let's do it.

Speaker 2: 25:06

I don't know how to do that. I have no idea. These are both quotes I should have done quote. I don't know how to do that Quote, I have no idea. Stop and think. Use what you do. Have Quote. I haven't done that exactly as you described. However, in my current role, I and then expand on something similar. I mean this one's not just good for interviewing, it's just good for life in general in corporate. Never say I don't know. Instead, talk about what you do and, more importantly, kind of feel around for the facts right, like in conversations and Alex, you're great at this Rather than just playing your full hand. Talk more about the thing they're talking about, ask them questions back, get more information, and then you can start to feed what you do know very easily, because you've got all the puzzle pieces together and you can actually formulate a piece of information that will tell them more about you or the thing that they're trying to answer.

Speaker 1: 26:05

Yeah, I feel like you just gave me a backhanded compliment there.

Speaker 2: 26:10

It's not that you don't know things, no it was good.

Speaker 1: 26:13

It was like hey, by the way, alex, you're really good at BSing, so you know.

Speaker 2: 26:20

I wasn't implying BS. I was implying, you know, if I think it's also fair to say, a lot of times these questions are not entirely clear off the cuff. They'll ask the question they don't actually know what they want the answer for. So by further asking, more questions.

Speaker 1: 26:39

It makes them think what are you actually trying to get me to say? Yeah, In almost all of these questions, right? When they ask you a question, any question, they're almost never looking for a specific answer. The exception to that would be technical interviews, right, If it's a technical interview and they ask you, what is this? Obviously they're looking for that specific answer. But for normal interviews, where it's primarily skewed towards behavioral questions, they have no idea what the right answer is.

Speaker 1: 27:05

They're just trying to get to know you, and so simply giving up and saying I don't know something says a lot about you, versus trying to wrestle with the question and take a moment like, be okay with the silence. Think, respond, right, Take a breath, be okay with that. That'll show more about you and your character than having the right answer off the top of your head. So one thing that made me think this made me think about was the idea of learn, teach, learn, and I can explain why. So when the whole learn, teach, learn, the idea is learn something, as if you're going to teach it to someone else, Right, and then teach it to someone else so that you can then learn more.

Speaker 1: 27:49

But one of the things I've noticed is that when I'm learning something, I feel like I have the crutch if I can just ask a question of the person teaching me, right, and so I don't have the wherewithal to find the answer myself. But when I'm forced to teach something, I have to go out and find the answers and then understand the process at a deeper level. And so I feel like, if you ever really want to learn something, learn it as if you're going to teach other people about that thing, and I think you'll do better in terms of consuming the information. And I think, to a certain extent right, the I have no idea the first part that was quoted is showing a novice learner where a stop and think and then say I haven't done exactly that as you described. However, you know whatever you're going to say. That's more, you know answering the question like like someone who's teaching the subject, Right, and I think that that's a really good concept to try to keep in your head.

Speaker 2: 28:42

I love that and you know, just thinking about what you were saying as you were saying it, one way I know I've learned something is when I've put it into a PowerPoint story, which is just ironic given the conversation earlier. That is truly. I'll hear something. I'll say okay, how do I turn this into slide narrative? And then, once I do that, I know the thing. Just weird tangent that you cued me into there. I love this point and completely agree.

Speaker 1: 29:10

Yeah, again, going back to a hundred percent, agree with her point or Shay's point, totally agree. Number seven don't ask anything. You can find out easily online. So you need to do research you've done to ask strategic questions. So the quote that Shay gives is for my research. I know X. Tell me more about X in your own words. That's the positive question that Shay's posting. And spot on. Again, going back to sales, you don't want to show up when you're selling something and have no idea about the person you're selling something to. You want to have a perspective from them on them, a point of view about them, so that you can position something that is most relevant to them. Well, when you're interviewing, what are you doing if not selling yourself? Right? And so, absolutely, you need to know about, if not the individual interviewer, at a minimum the company they work for, that you're trying to sell yourself to. And I know that sounds kind of cold in a way like selling yourself, but ultimately, if you break it down, that is what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 30:21

And so, yeah, incredibly, important my Bruce Banger on this one, and this is a marketing tip that you can use for any job interview you go for Well, most any. I don't think this works for government jobs. Most companies' marketing is going to be on LinkedIn, twitter, instagram, youtube. They're going to be all over the place and they're going to be putting different kinds of content out there. So make sure to hit up not just the website but all of their social media platforms and look at the kind of things they're putting out there, because that can actually set you up for some really good questions.

Speaker 2: 30:53

You see a video on YouTube one of their product managers talking through an architecture of one of their products. Watch that video, learn that individual's name and say, hey, I watched Dave's overview of the architecture. I thought it was really interesting how you guys built this specific widget. I'd be so curious to know what, like what led you down that path, if you're going for an engineering role. Or say I really like this ad. I saw what was the inspiration that said, hey, we should go this direction versus something else. It just shows a little bit more knowledge and depth of research than just I read the homepage and it'll also cue you into a lot of the company's sort of values, what they like to show, what is their public face, and you can kind of play into that in your interview as well 100%.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Love it All. Right, number eight Go. Quote X person recommended me. In end quote Shay says I love a referral and I harp on about them constantly. They're good for letting you get or getting your foot in the door. End quote Shay says I love a referral and I harp on about them constantly. They're good for letting you get or getting your foot in the door. Therefore, you need to use your own merit to prove you're worth it. Plus, the hiring manager will know your referral already. I mean this one just 100% agree.

Speaker 2: 32:03

You are here to be interviewed, not to showcase. You have existing connections at the company. They will have already talked to those connections, I promise you. Because the first thing that happens when someone I recommend for an interview gets interviewed is the hiring person comes to me first or whoever's interviewing says hey, what do you know about this individual? I've done this to Alex before when interviewing someone that he knew. I said, hey, I'm interviewing this guy, he's worked with you, what do you know about them? And then you know a year later he's on the podcast. So it's just uh, that is an established way to just kind of show that you're not confident in your own ability and that you rely on the word of others to get your foot in the door.

Speaker 1: 32:45

Uh yeah, between you and Shay, y'all nailed it A hundred percent. I got no notes, no notes. Five out of seven, perfect score.

Speaker 2: 32:53

Oh yeah, Not enough water. Let's hit number nine.

Speaker 1: 32:57

All right, let's go. I'm really nervous. That's in quotes Whenever?

Speaker 2: 33:02

you feel the?

Speaker 1: 33:03

urge to say this switch it with.

Speaker 2: 33:09

I'm really excited about this opportunity. I don't think you've ever been nervous your entire life.

Speaker 1: 33:13

That's not entirely true. You know I was a thespian, so you know getting up on stage can be nerve wracking, especially like the first time you're doing a show.

Speaker 1: 33:19

That's very true, but but no, yeah, look nervous. But I do agree, though, the idea that sometimes you're going to be excited about an opportunity and so, even if it's not nervous in the sense of like anxious, you might have nervous energy right, like you might be a little pumped for the interview, right, any of these things are possible. I like the idea of trying to reframe any anxiety and or nerves you have towards a positive about like excitement for the opportunity. So I think this is one of any number of tricks out there to like try to calm yourself, center yourself, taking a breath, right, like just recomposing yourself as much as you can. But, yeah, going in and doing your best to show a calm face, a calm exterior, even if you're bubbling under the surface, it's going to be beneficial. And I like the tip, though, because, let's say, you can't contain that and it bubbles out anyway despite your best efforts. Try to have some way of reframing it in a positive just makes complete sense.

Speaker 2: 34:21

Yep, the I'll give us it's almost a tangential side tip because it doesn't always work, but it works on me when I interview people and it's because I'm so out there as a as a representative of the company. When they talk to me they'll say oh sorry, I'm just, I'm excited to meet you. I've seen you all over YouTube or I've seen you in X, y, z thing, and that makes me. It doesn't just make me feel good because they've seen my work, but it says oh, they know who I am. You know, if they're a little nervous to talk to me cause they perceive me as some sort of influence or whatever like we can, we can level with that, but it's so much better than them just saying I'm nervous, because everyone gets nervous, but to to acknowledge the person you're talking to for their work or to say that you're excited about the opportunity, I think that's a much better lead in.

Speaker 1: 35:06

So you just brought up something that I feel like I want to double click on, right, and that's when you're dealing with folks in your organization. I would argue do your best to not be overawed by someone's position. And what I mean by that is humans want to work with humans, right, and so, just like, if you ever get a chance to meet a celebrity, right, be cool, right, like. Don't like go crazy fan person out, you know and like you know, oh, can I get a picture of blah, blah, blah. If you meet an executive, same thing, right.

Speaker 1: 35:44

Don't be insanely excited because there's somebody that you think is more than human. That's not going to benefit you in terms of your relationship with them and in general, in my experience, the more I treat everyone as a fellow human which is to say, I did my best to treat them well, but not like a hero or something like that the more you treat people like humans, the more they view you as a peer, which is what you want. You want everyone to view you as a peer. That's going to help you not only get the current job you're going for, but promotions as well. That's just a little bit of advice I would give to anybody is. You know, don't be a cocky person. I'm not saying be arrogant, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying be normal, just be yourself, and anytime you're talking to somebody regardless of their position.

Speaker 2: 36:43

I don't care if they're the CEO, the chairman of the board, whoever it is talk to them like a fellow human and they'll appreciate it and it'll help you appear in a better it to almost all of these. And I think that will also help with the nervousness factor. If you treat people as people, not just hey, oh, this person is going to be my manager or the VP, or I'm doing the skip level interview. They're just people. That's going to deescalate the nervousness too. So bravo, well done. Write that one down listeners Very good.

Speaker 1: 37:11

All right, let's go on to the 10th Last one.

Speaker 2: 37:14

Last one, all right, number 10. Shay says quote I know I don't have much experience, but end quote she says no, you've been called for an interview. You do have enough experience. Don't qualify yourself out or introduce any doubt. If you doubt yourself, so will others and completely agree If you. If you got the interview and you didn't lie on your resume, then you've already proven you can get the job. Now it's just a matter of fact is can you prove to them that you are a good fit to be part of their company to do the job?

Speaker 1: 37:50

Yeah, I would. I would add an additional thing, and that's that I think anybody that would say something like this is trying to cover themselves because they know they're going into a partially unknown situation.

Speaker 2: 38:05

Right.

Speaker 1: 38:06

And so they want to hedge against that and some of the best advice I've ever seen given to anyone and it wasn't directly given to me, but it was part of a job I was interviewing for Someone else got this advice and it was good advice, which is just be comfortable being uncomfortable and I know that's trite, it's a saying that gets bandied about, but if you actually stop and think about it especially the person giving this, by the way, was fellow podcast Danny Yonkers. I knew it, I knew it. The thing is, if you know danny, if you heard him on the podcast, you know danny is just a genuine human that guy is, so he's really good, he's a good person, man like, so. Um, at any rate, when he gave this advice, he was doing it from the best of intentions. It wasn't just meant to be a write-off or anything like that, but what he was getting at was there.

Speaker 1: 38:54

You, if, if you can figure out a way to get comfortable with the unknown and being uncomfortable, you've opened up your career right To so much more. And when you're going for a new job, of course there are going to be unknowns. It's like the first day of school, right, like you get nerves, you get jitters, but don't, don't fess up to that, like I don't have much experience, but right. Instead, just lean into. This is the experience I have and this is what's going to help me be successful in this new role. Right, go in that direction and that's that's the advice Shay gives, of course but also, again, conquer those nerves around being uncomfortable and you will be so much better.

Speaker 1: 39:36

I know so many folks that stay in the same job for years because they're uncomfortable with the unknown. And, to be fair, look, if you're happy, awesome, right. But I also know some folks that complain a lot about their lot in life in terms of their career, and yet they're still in the same job and they don't have to be. They have the experience. They have the experience, they have the knowledge. They could go on to other things, but they have to get over that uncomfortableness, and it's easier said than done. Right, I get it and I'm not trying to say it's a simple thing to do, but if you make that a goal of yours and you work towards it, then I think it's something that can be done.

Speaker 2: 40:12

Yeah it's definitely a muscle. It's. You know I'm no expert at this, but when I go into interviews I always try to think you know, I'm not going to have every answer, that's just. It's impossible to have every answer, perfect the way they have them. Instead, I'm going to be the best version of me. I'm going to answer the questions the best of my ability. Just, you know, point I think, four, you know, don't say I don't know, but rather you know pivot or when it was 0.6.

Speaker 2: 40:40

But all of those points lead up to this. You do have the experience. It might not be the experience, but it's how you craft that story. It's. Hey, can I listen to the question? Can I ask more questions, get more context and then give my best answer and I think you know, to Danny's point, being comfortable, being uncomfortable, it's also, it's a little bit of jujitsu mastery. You start to learn how to wait, pause, like you did earlier, use the question back at them to get more information and then build the best version of your story. It's, and when it, when it works and when it happens, it feels really good to you. Even if you don't get the job, you feel like you nailed the interview, which sometimes even better.

Speaker 1: 41:25

And you know, I think one of the ways maybe right and I'm just trying to like, I'm thinking through it myself right now yeah, maybe one of the ways to get comfortable with the uncomfortable is knowing about the payoff at the end. So I heard an explanation and I forget where I heard it, but I heard an explanation of the feeling of nostalgia. So you know, you're very familiar with nostalgia, bruce. Like what's the best year for gaming ever? 1999., yeah, that was a long time ago, man, or 2007.

Speaker 1: 41:55

I mean, we could argue, we could argue, still in the past, right, and you long for those halcyon days, right, like back and right. So I yearn for the minds right, that feeling of nostalgia I've heard it explained as which you don't necessarily miss the time period or the specific thing. What you miss is the novelty of experiencing that for the first time. So, back in 98, 99, what you experienced for the first time was epic gaming, like just the best gaming, right. Or when you're a kid and you and you get some soft serve for the first time, some ice cream, right, you're like man, this is the best thing. You're not. If you have it today, the reason it's not as good it's not because it's any worse necessarily, but it's because because it's any worse necessarily, but it's because you've already done it, you've already been there. That's why it's not as good as the first time. And so think about that from your career's perspective. Remember the first time you got good at something at your current job that felt really good, right, like man, I'm really cooking with fire.

Speaker 1: 42:51

Yes, it did Well, chances are you're not going to experience that same thing in the same role. No, you're going to have to broaden your horizon, and so just keep in mind in the back of your head that the reward at the end of the day isn't just, maybe, higher pay or anything like that, but also a better life experience with your job by having novel experiences on a regular basis.

Speaker 2: 43:15

And that's truly how you grow, and it's not just how you grow as an employee Like. What I love about what you've just put out there is that's how you grow as a human being. You have to just experience more things and learn more things and go do different things. It's. Nothing is more satisfying to me than picking up a new hobby because it's like, ooh, I'm going to scratch that part of my brain that's going to have to learn something weird and new and go off and become maybe not a master, but good enough to say that I can do this, and it's a huge motivator for me.

Speaker 1: 43:49

That's where I am with pickleball man. It's in my blood.

Speaker 2: 43:53

That's me in Japanese Nice.

Speaker 1: 43:56

That's actually probably more productive. Although pickleball man, it's in my blood, it's that's me in japanese nice.

Speaker 2: 43:59

That's that's actually probably more productive, although pickleball is pretty good for my heart, so I can't complain. Yeah, I think we're both getting something very important, uh and uh, we should not neglect each other's one of learn more things and stay physically active yeah, probably good to do both, um as a heads up.

Speaker 1: 44:12

so, um, we got all this from a post that Jobs with Shay made, so I'm following. I now follow Jobs with Shay on Instagram, so it's J-O-B-S with W-I-T-H, shay S-H-A-Y, and we'll put the post in the Discord. But I figured it's fair is fair, right, like this is where we got the content from right.

Speaker 2: 44:35

Yep, I'll make sure it lands in the discord, but I figured it's fair, fair right, like this is where we got the content from Right, so, yep, I'll make sure it lands in the show notes as well. And thank you, alex, for sourcing this as well as just being my co-host on this. This was fun.

Speaker 1: 44:44

Yeah, I apologize to everybody for being a novice co-host. Hopefully we did All right.

Speaker 2: 44:49

I think we did just dandy Listen. If you want to get in the discord, super easy. All you have to do scroll down in your podcast platform of choosing in the show notes there's a link tree. It'll get you access to our discord, our website, our newsletter, our shop. That doesn't work. All kinds of great things can all be found there. Click that link tree and go. Uh, I don't think we don't have a meme.

Speaker 1: 45:12

We do have a meme but I think I made it though, so you made it yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:16

Yeah, we got to hold this. I got to make Clark do it.

Speaker 1: 45:19

That would be awesome If you can have him make a meme while he's on vacation.

Speaker 2: 45:22

Yes, yes, okay, or if someone else in the discord wants to, that's fine, and, and you can do that.

Speaker 1: 45:37

Get in and make a meme about the most recent episode.

Speaker 2: 45:39

Well, actually there is that one gif Ica, ica. Yes, ica, our German correspondent, which you want to take it.

Speaker 1: 45:50

Take it Sure. So it's a video and two gentlemen are in what appears to be an office setting. Could be a classroom. Okay, they're both dressed up in drab but formal attire right, regular button-down shirts and ties, and one of the individuals is drawing on a large sheet of paper and it appears they have a number of vertical dashes that they then enclose in what appears to be just a regular old triangle, the older gentleman's looking over his shoulder and just kind of analyzing at the drawing that he's commissioned and seems to nod in approval or understanding.

Speaker 1: 46:29

Is it realization? I'm not sure that facial expression is difficult to disentangle realization.

Speaker 2: 46:37

Uh, I'm not sure that facial expression is difficult to to disentangle. It could almost be a sad dour acknowledgement of the triangle.

Speaker 1: 46:43

Yeah, yeah triangle, but there was one yeah, definitely some sort of realization has dawned on him and, um, I don't know that he appreciates it.

Speaker 2: 46:52

I don't think that he likes this understanding no, nor I, and the smirk on the other gentleman's face certainly cues me into maybe he had the upper hand on the situation all along.

Speaker 1: 47:03

I'm going to have to say, though, that smirk seems pretty punchable.

Speaker 2: 47:06

I totally punched that guy's face.

Speaker 1: 47:07

I don't know. I'm glad we agree. Yeah, Jim's the worst.

Speaker 2: 47:12

Good job. This is another episode of what Do you Meme? The game we play within the game of our podcast. Please come in our Discord and submit your memes. I think that's it, unless you got anything else for us, alex. Nope, I'm good, all right. Well, thank you, as always, to our listeners. If you like what you hear, do share this with your friends. This is how we grow and we always appreciate your listenership, per usual.

Speaker 1: 47:36

I'm Bruce and unusual I'm Alex and you're all on mute.

Speaker 2: 47:44

We will see you next week.