125. Five Star Review

Speaker 1: 0:02

You missed that.

Speaker 2: 0:03

Oh, it just feels so good in my ear hole, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 0:07

Mm-hmm. Remember last time we had to use G-Arc and it was really creepy.

Speaker 2: 0:11

It honestly has felt like a lifetime since I've seen Craig, and this is a good day. I'm pumped.

Speaker 1: 0:16

Yeah, we've missed you. We've missed you. I've missed you. Oh, sweetie, Welcome back to Corporate Strategy, the podcast. That should have been an email. I'm Bruce and I'm Clark Clark. Did you know? Last week we did an episode without you.

Speaker 2: 0:32

I know you told me about it. I shamefully haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, but I heard it was a banger.

Speaker 1: 0:38

It was. It was Alex brought a phenomenal 10-part Instagram post and we got to break down some really great interview tips. It was good.

Speaker 2: 0:49

That's awesome Anytime Alex is on. I know it's going to be an awesome one for the listeners and I'm super excited to listen to it. I'm so happy that we're finally back on a schedule. After our travels, our vacations, our sickness. I feel like we're going to keep this on a roll through the rest of the year.

Speaker 1: 1:08

Yeah, you know, we're gonna keep the the weekly eps a flinging, which is good.

Speaker 2: 1:10

We pay for it. So you know we got to keep it alive, we pay for it. Is that the saddest thing you've ever heard in podcast news?

Speaker 1: 1:16

we pay for it not, they pay us to do it. You know, what's really sad is like our downloads just go up, like more and more people listen, you, the listener. More, more and more of y'all are listening. Uh, just keep on. It's not really sad, actually, it's awesome. I love that. I love that that happens. But uh, I guess as long as we continue to grow, we'll continue to pay, so you can hear us absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:35

I mean, hey, if this is providing value and I think a few people in our in our discord community quick plug, I've actually posted like they've gotten jobs from the tips they've listened to on this show. So as long as it's providing value, I'll pay for it.

Speaker 1: 1:48

It's fine.

Speaker 2: 1:48

I agree, even though right now, technically, you're paying for it. If I need to start paying for it in order to support a lot of the value that comes out of the community, I'm in.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Nah, nah, I like holding this over you. It feels good. Hey, how was your trip, vibe check.

Speaker 2: 2:04

It is a good but bad podcast. The good news is I'm back from vacation. Yeah, and it was incredible. Yeah, it was so cool. It was incredible. We went overseas, went across the pond, as I mentioned, I got to go with my wife and my dad actually came for a little while too, which was super cool. So we got to explore London and a couple, a couple different places. It was decent weather, surprisingly like. Let's say, like three of the days were pretty crummy, but the rest of the time there was awesome, so I definitely can't complain.

Speaker 2: 2:36

It was, uh, just london awful spit and rain the whole day, like it's not bad rain, but it's just enough to be annoying. It's like you're walking around and you're still getting like misted the whole time.

Speaker 1: 2:47

So it's just annoying. Yeah, just drizzled on.

Speaker 2: 2:50

But we got some really good days where the weather was just perfect, like zero humidity, 70 degrees out, sunny it was awesome.

Speaker 1: 2:57

Oh, that is nice. Did you eat some fish and chips while you were there?

Speaker 2: 2:59

Did get some fish and chips. If you guys need a good fish and chip spot and you're heading over there, let me know. I found a couple good ones.

Speaker 1: 3:06

They serve it in the newspaper.

Speaker 2: 3:08

They did, yeah, they wrapped it up in a newspaper and everything.

Speaker 1: 3:10

I'll be honest though.

Speaker 2: 3:11

You got to eat it quick. If it's in the newspaper, you got to break it open, Otherwise it gets soggy.

Speaker 1: 3:16

Mm-hmm, yeah, when I was there, that is true, and and any fish and chips that I've had simulating that it's still true, like it's something you've got to eat quickly.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Maybe it's just like is it an American thing? I don't know. I don't like everything all mushy, like the fish, like the crispiness of the fry and the fried on the fried. You know breading on the fish needs to be crispy, right. So it's just weird to me that you would wrap it up right after you cook it, condense all that and steam it up and now just make it soggy. Just makes no sense.

Speaker 1: 3:50

There's a point, right, like there's this point, where once you wrap it and it starts to juice up a little bit, there is like it's almost like a bell curve. You do want a little bit of juice on the crisp, but then the longer it linger, the less crisp you get and the more juice you got, and then it's now. It's disgusting. So there's a little bit of a time place and energy involved with good fish and chips so what you're saying is, my timing was just wrong.

Speaker 1: 4:21

I waited a little too long, I was falling down the bell curve and then I got soggy fish and chips well, I think the the point of the fish and chips is to truly eat it on the go, right like it's designed, that you pick it up from a stall. You're eating it on the way to whatever you're going to and you're not going to let it linger long enough. Do you have to? Do you have to let linger enough? No, you don't. And uh definitely.

Speaker 2: 4:44

I mean, I'll be honest, it's kind of messy though, like getting that on the go. Good luck, maybe that's the style, though. Maybe that's what they do.

Speaker 1: 4:50

I feel like any good to go food, whether you know british american like, think about the hot dog. Hot dog is not clean food right, true taco.

Speaker 2: 5:00

No, you know, taco just falls apart.

Speaker 1: 5:02

Everywhere you're leaving a trail, people are knowing what you've eaten after you're gone, because you've left a nice little crumble trail wherever you're going the pigeons love them.

Speaker 2: 5:12

They just follow them around, whatever you're eating on the go that's part of the street food allures. You're helping out the rats and the pigeons oh man, yeah, I mean I guess you're not wrong, because listen, the pigeons over there huge. You've been to Costco, right, and have you ever gotten grilled or just regular, let's say, chicken breast from Costco?

Speaker 1: 5:33

No, I've actually never been to Costco.

Speaker 2: 5:36

Oh really, yeah, we got to go on an adventure that feels like a corporate strategy outing, because they do an awesome job Recording a podcast at costco let's go maybe we'll both interview at costco we talked about this at one point.

Speaker 2: 5:49

We need to find a job. I hear they pay well, people stay for a super long time. They only promote from within. Sounds like an awesome company culture. Let's do it. I am so in for this. But yeah, their chicken breasts oh my god, it's huge. Like what are they feeding this chicken? I? I had one last night. My wife and I cooked it up for dinner. The thing is massive like it is literally the largest. It's got to be the biggest chicken I've ever seen in my life and I I honestly have never seen a chicken that could possibly be the size of that chicken breast that I ate last night. But then, over in london, those pigeons, they were massive. Those things were butterball pigeons walking around the streets and it's probably because of all the fish and chips they're eating.

Speaker 1: 6:28

Yeah, I mean, they're living good. What is better for a bird than some fish and chips?

Speaker 2: 6:34

That's very true. I mean the pride maybe not great for them, but the fish? Naturally great for their systems.

Speaker 1: 6:41

I mean when you see them struggling to take off because they're flapping their wings like it's been great for their systems. I mean when you see them like struggling to take off because you know they're flapping their wings like man, I'm going fishing trips today.

Speaker 2: 6:48

You know, that's how you know it's a happy bird. They're just fumbling around a little bit. Can't quite get off there, but yeah, overall it was great, Awesome vacation. The reason why it's a bad day is because I have to start getting ready for work next week. I got to get in that mental state. I haven't really, I haven't thought about it really at all. No texts, no emails. We talked about this. I said I'd give you an update. Haven't gotten any notifications. Nothing has hit my inbox yet.

Speaker 1: 7:15

Yes, I mean there probably is. I haven't looked at it.

Speaker 2: 7:16

But you got one more day, yeah yeah, I get to enjoy it one more day and then I'll tell you the sunday scary is after vacation to say you different, the sunday horrors.

Speaker 1: 7:27

I'm not looking forward to sunday you want to hear something sad. This this will be my vibe check. So last week I recorded, you know, with alex streppo. I was sick during that recording and, like legit, I have been sick every single time. I have taken time off this year and I'm getting sick of it. Let me tell you. You want to talk about Sunday scaries? Talk about Sunday scaries and it's like I've taken time off work to enjoy my life and the second I do that my body says, nah, you're sick again. Enjoy it. You loser I am. I've had it up to here. I've had it up to here with it, you loser I am.

Speaker 2: 8:04

I've had it up to here. I've had it up to here with it. That's honestly that's the worst feeling. It is like when you have this whole plan for your time off and then you just get derailed by something unexpected, like sickness, and there's nothing you can do. You're like, well, I could try to go back to work, but I already planned all this vacation and I'm just going to be dead anyways, I'm gonna have to use time. So then you're just in a bad place.

Speaker 1: 8:21

It's so bad. Someone was telling me they're like I think what happens is your body. You're working so much and you're stressed, even though you don't feel stressed, that your body's like. I got to keep it intact. I got to keep it in place during this hard time and then, as soon as it's like, oh, you can relax, I'm going to okay, okay, we're gonna let it go. We're gonna, we're gonna re-immunize your system and let you deal with some of the worst crap imaginable. Uh, while you're relaxing, you know, I'm just over it I want to be sick.

Speaker 2: 8:50

Your body just knows. Your body knows, like your body knows your, your state of, let's say, heightened awareness is down because you don't have to work, and knows your body's gonna be in that relaxed state. It like what better time for some extra rest than your vacation that you planned?

Speaker 1: 9:04

Right, oh, I'm over it. I'm over it. I need to just take like three weeks back to back off. That is an incredible plan. There's no way I could be sick for three straight weeks. So, haha, I'll just call you buddy.

Speaker 2: 9:19

I can't even imagine taking three weeks consecutively off. I can't even imagine taking three weeks consecutively off. I can tell you like two weeks, I'll give you this update Feels like a lifetime. I try to think back to like the last time I worked. I'm like it feels like forever and time just moves slower. Like I think back for the last two weeks and I'm like, has it been two months? Feels so long, when your whole entire workday is not filled with back-to-back meetings and your days just fly by.

Speaker 1: 9:43

I legit don't think I could take three weeks off right now, as much as I'd like to. I think that the company would say no.

Speaker 2: 9:51

I was going to say, yeah, you might be in a critical spot, especially at a startup. There's some things that are just not acceptable. And yeah leaving for three weeks probably isn't a good move.

Speaker 1: 9:59

There would literally be things halted because of that. So can't do that yet but hopefully, you know, I'm hoping every year, every month I think it gets a little bit better and I'm hoping soon that I could take maybe two weeks off in a row. That would be nice, Feels like a good goal.

Speaker 2: 10:15

Yeah, I can tell you I haven't done this for a few years now, but it felt great and I think you really start to enjoy it, because that second week comes around and it's Sunday and you're like, oh yeah, I don't have to care about tomorrow, like I can just not do anything if I wanted to, don't have to worry about work, don't have to check my email ahead of time, don't have to do anything, I can just chill.

Speaker 1: 10:35

It's a good feeling. I'll tell you like you know the place we used to work.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Had they kept their pto policy, I would probably still be there because I'd get two months off a year. It's insane, you know. I still feel like the math didn't math on that, on that policy, like I feel like people have loaded up like six months of pto that they could have taken at any point in time well, what's funny is like people there who've been there 20 years wouldn't do it like they.

Speaker 1: 11:01

I think it maxed out at like two and a half months, but they wouldn't take two and a half months off, they would do like a month and then they would basically, you know, lose the time or be forced to take days off like every other friday off. And man, you wouldn't have you like. If I had two and a half months off a year, you wouldn't see me like july gone, december gone, just be like, see ya, I'm out, and then intersperse the days throughout the rest of the year yeah right, like every other friday, you have a three-day weekend every other friday, man, I just don't think companies do that anymore, like what we had at that company and why people stuck around for decades.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:48

Yeah, it's how they did so well, but obviously they didn't do a lot of things well because of the way the market went. Yeah, but uh. But overall I mean they had their peak and the people who got to benefit from good for them it was, it was the good times. It was the good times for sure, got to benefit from good for them.

Speaker 1: 12:04

It was, it was the good times. It was the good times for sure. Sure were sure were speaking of people. I got a topic for you today and it's based on a conversation I actually had this morning. Oh boy, hot off the press, we talked about this topic before it's been a minute. But remember, remember, we talked about performance reviews and specifically, 360 reviews. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, a faction of my organization has decided they want to do 360 reviews.

Speaker 1: 12:28

Okay, and I received one this morning from an individual I work with. I looked at it and I was like I have no idea how to grade this person. So, fortunately enough, his boss and I have a one-on-one every Thursday. So I met with her and I said, hey, look like this is gonna sound like a really weird question, but she's European, I'm American, and I said us Americans have this belief that anything less than five star is failure.

Speaker 1: 12:58

Five out of five, ten out of ten. I was like you know, the way the survey is presented to me was this person writes well on one to five. This person generates leads on one to five. Like you know, it's everything was on a five-star scale. So I said you know, americans, if you give me a four, it means that I've done the worst job on planet earth, even though, by all regards, four out of five is pretty stellar.

Speaker 1: 13:24

Yeah, you know, in my mind it would be three. You're doing your job, for you're going above and beyond your job. Five you're actively just making deals for the company manifest out of thin air, right Like that's how I would do it, but that's not the American way. So she said, it doesn't matter what you put. So we're looking for growth quarter after quarter. So I guess it's going to be a quarterly thing. We're have to re-review these individuals quarter after quarter by my own metric system. And I just thought, like interesting, we have to talk about this in the pod, because what would you do? And, more importantly, what do you prefer, clark, when it comes to the grading of people on a performance review type thing? And in general, like, do you agree with that assessment?

Speaker 2: 14:14

Yes, it's super interesting and you also are going through. Something I don't think I've ever had to deal with before is where you're reviewing someone in a completely different culture, yeah, and I guess maybe in like a really established company, like obviously you're in the startup environment. But if you're at like an enterprise company, it might be okay that you know, because you'll probably have standards across the company. So it might be okay that the culture is a little different because the company culture is so pervasive. It doesn't really matter. But in your case it's like it's a startup, it's across cultures and, to your point, you know Americans look at things different than Europeans or people who are in Asia or whatever it is, and you're going to get probably wildly different results, especially if this is something that's just getting started. Right, it's really interesting.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Yeah, even you know we say on this podcast give us five stars. On Apple Podcasts, if you listen, getting less than five stars is a one star. We have such a skewed view of rating and now I'm aware of this and it impacts the way that I actually want to review people.

Speaker 2: 15:20

It's interesting you mentioned the bell curve earlier because I was looking at app store reviews for different apps and there was like this graph that showed, like the, basically the chasm between like one star and like 4.8 stars and essentially you're right, like it was an American based study and everything was either like a good app, if it was 4.8 stars or above, and just trash like one star if anything less, and the things in the middle were very far and in between, like it's, either we go to one extreme or the other. So it's really interesting how that, like you know, feeds into the observation that you're having as well the american system in general is so funny.

Speaker 1: 15:57

We have two political parties, you know red and blue. We have two ideas when it comes to how something is. It's good or it's bad. There's nothing in between. Right, five star, one star. We get really mad if it's three, four, two, because that's that's just a one star review in disguise, like we're so binary as a culture. It's very odd to me. And and when, when presented with a very sort of european way of looking at things, I'm just I, I break down because I personally want to live in the world where three is good, yeah, and you know two is needs improvement, one is bad, but right, I'm not comfortable doing that.

Speaker 2: 16:38

You know like I'm worried well clarifying question for this review was there any sort of criteria for the one to five like you mentioned, kind of arbitrary? Okay, yeah, you already answered it. Nope, because I was gonna say you actually did the right thing, you know, when you were explaining this. So saying like five is you're generating leads. Every hot lead for the company comes through and converts to a deal. Like that's a five, right.

Speaker 2: 17:03

I think that's where all these systems kind of fail is there's no context around it. So you get like a three and you're like okay, but I think I'm doing great. And the second you say but I think means that it's not clear enough to you what success looks like. And I think that's the issue with this system is like, if it's not black and white on what success is and what these ratings mean. Like a three means you're generating three leads a day and 25% of those leads are converting or something along those lines.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Like maybe that's a terrible metric I'm not in marketing or sales, but you get the idea it's like if you can quantify those things, then it's very clear and everybody has an idea of like OK, in order to get to a five, I've got to be able to close, you know, 10 percent more of my sales than I'm doing today. I'm going to get there, and then you don't feel so bad when you get a four, because you're like, yeah, you're right, I'm clearly not hitting the numbers. I need to get to a five, but with yours it's just so. It's so subject to whoever's kind of grading that it doesn't. I don't know if it's going to provide much value.

Speaker 1: 18:07

I guess to beat it right to the punch, you know, like thinking about this, as you just explained that what if I almost like a four point system and you could? You could lay it out like this is four exceeds expectation. Three meets expectation. Three is still a high number, but you know it's meets expectation. Two does not meet expectation. One, problematic like doesn't just not meet expectation, harms expectations, or like negative, negative overall view. It's like now you have a path that is fire correct data course promote. Now you have a path that is fire correct data course promote. Like that's a really good spectrum, but you'd have to lay that out that way and set some kind of understanding to make that work. I just, you know, like that's where corporate just fails.

Speaker 2: 18:54

Like they just don't do that. Tell me, have you ever gotten a clear set of criteria for what, like awesome work looks like for your role? No, I never have, never. I never have. Like thinking back through all the roles software engineering, internships, product management, management in general like nothing. I have gotten zero feedback. It kind of is just like a yeah, it feels like I'm doing the right stuff and if you've got a good sense of that and can play the game well, you can figure it out. But if you don't have a good sense of that or you're new, like good luck, you're going to be floating for a while till you figure it out.

Speaker 1: 19:31

Right, well it's. It's a little bit maddening to me because you know I'm not going to narc on my company or anything like that, cause I still want to work there. But you know we have a shout outs channel in our slack and you know we will shout out people for doing their job and I'm like I don't. Do we like, do we want to actively shout out people for doing their job or do you want to shout out people for going above and beyond their job? You know it's like man we have something similar.

Speaker 2: 19:58

I never even thought about that. I never use it because I'm like why are we just saying like, yeah, great job, putting together a report. That is literally your role, like you have to do that. I don't get why people are celebrating this.

Speaker 1: 20:11

No, it's like I want to shout someone out when they don't do their job and they're doing my job. It's like thank you so much for making me do less work today.

Speaker 2: 20:17

I really appreciate that yeah, but what happens exactly between? If everyone's just saying like, thanks for doing your normal job, then it just becomes more noise and people will just stop using it right, it's not providing any value, so it becomes this weird echo chamber.

Speaker 1: 20:31

I mean it's. You know it's the linkedin problem. You know you're constantly congratulating people for doing the expected. You know, like here's another thing is you know, gets a job, which is not an easy thing to do, but like does it need to become a massive event on LinkedIn that you got a job Right? Like I don't want to sound too cynical, but like we're all working to work. You know I don't care if you got a job at Netflix as the chief television watcher, like cool. You know. Like, yeah, you're going to work till you die. It's not something to be proud of, you know. It's just the way that we treat, respond and grade action baffles me.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Yeah, absolutely, and I just don't. I feel like you need to do it because someone is trying to provide you feedback. But, right, I think you need to. You need to do it because someone is trying to provide you feedback, but I think you need to make it more valuable and I think you need to probably provide some explanation. I think the beautiful thing in your position that you can do at this company is probably give feedback to how you can improve this in the future, because, while this is a good starting point, it doesn't exactly provide a lot of value, and so I think you could probably set an example of, you know, go through that rating, kind of rank them honestly, you know how you think they're doing, but then provide the explanation behind it, being like hey, just so you know, is it anonymous or do they get to see the results? It's not anonymous, okay, so they do get to see like Bruce rated me a three on this? Yes, not anonymous. Okay, so they do get to see like Bruce rated me a three on this? Yes, ah, interesting.

Speaker 2: 22:05

I mean I kind of like that, because why not? If you're going to write it down, you know you should be willing to say it's someone's face is the way I was going to look at it, but I don't think a lot of people look at it this way, so they make it anonymous. But I think you could then email them afterwards and be like hey, I didn't have an opportunity to really put a lot of feedback in here, but I want to go through my ratings. I gave you a three because of X, y and Z, and I think you have an opportunity to get to a four by doing, you know, a, b and C, and I think that's where you can really provide the value that goes beyond just like a three, an arbitrary three of like that. What does that mean? And that kind of looks like failure to your point, when in reality, if you put it in the right context, you wrap it around in the right criteria, then it actually makes it more palatable.

Speaker 1: 22:48

I really like that and I would almost take it a step further and suggest that we don't use a rating scale at all and instead do a little bit more work and if it's 10 questions, you do three sentence responses for each.

Speaker 1: 23:02

Like, how does this individual do when it comes to generic writing tasks? Like I can, I can give you three sentences that will tell you the good, the bad and the ugly of this individual, and you will get so much more information out of that than a one to five star rating. But that's more work and in a weird way it almost feels, I don't know like more upsetting, like and maybe I'm wrong, please tell me I'm wrong but and this is also another very american thing is americans don't want to generalizing, they don't want to hear what's wrong with them, they want backpats for the most part, which is why we have a sandwich, which is why you know we are constantly one good, one bad, one better, or you know, like coming up with these little ways to deliver feedback softly, so we don't hurt Fifi's Like taking the time-.

Speaker 1: 23:58

You're right. Yeah, to write something to put meaningful value in a performance review, I think would be so much better. It's not something you can quantify with growth. Instead, you could actively see where this person stands with the person that's grading them.

Speaker 2: 24:13

I think it's so important to do exactly what you said of like suggest that and honestly for your leaders in the company, the CEO, whoever the kind of C-suite is to define it while your company is at this size Otherwise it gets off the rails and like good luck. But they should honestly be able to sit down to your point and say what does an awesome person in marketing look like to us? And let's like walk through. Let's take an example. Let's take, you know, gold star Bruce over here. Why do we think he's so awesome? Let's take kind of the qualities and the things he's doing really well that we think benefit the company and let's make that the criteria.

Speaker 2: 24:48

Let's make him the bar of what that top grade looks like and then let's abstract it to say this is why the top bar is, the are these things? And then you can kind of work down to say and then one bar below, bruce would be doing these things. So they're not quite at that level but they're, you know, still doing well. One bar below that they're kind of just doing what they need to be doing but not going above and beyond. You know they're not really ready for that promotion or next step or they're performing under, you know, and those are the next kind of steps underneath it. But I feel like you have a really good opportunity to kind of suggest that as saying like, rather than just using to your point this scoring system at all, you know, let's let's talk about how do we make this more valuable to the folks in our company, especially while we're at this size, before we start scaling to an even larger size, where then it's almost impossible. It's going to become really hard and abstract.

Speaker 1: 25:37

Yeah, like I think what what you're getting at is that's the hard part, right, like that, are you trying to build a metric that quantifies whether you hire fire or fire promote or do nothing, or are you trying to actually help the person improve? Because I think those are two very different things. That's a good point, and I think in the case of the one to five star rating, it's very much a fire promote type situation, because you're never going to get the information you need on what they call it actually doing.

Speaker 2: 26:10

Yeah, there's a term for it and it's called calibration. And that's when, essentially, the managers all get together with the you know, the VPs of the company or whatever, and they basically say let's look at our team and you know it's pretty big organizations and they'll be like all right, we've got 50 people. Who are the 50 people, who were the twos, who were the threes, who were the fours, who were the fives, and literally that's how they look at it, and because you know there's so many layers of management, that's needed to sometimes manage these large companies. It kind of depersonalizes it. You know someone that might be a two and you know that vp is like well, you know, if they're two, then they're obviously not making the cut. They've never worked with this person. They don't see any of like the soft skills or get the story behind it.

Speaker 2: 26:48

It's just a numbers game. To your point, it's like I just look at that and I see twos and I'm like, well, those are obviously the underperformers, when in reality I'm like, well, that too. What does that, too, really mean? And what's the larger story behind that person? And, to your point, is it more about just looking for who are we going to lay off in the next round? Or is it truly about how do we grow this person and get them to start performing?

Speaker 1: 27:09

Does that to even know there are two, and that's that's the problem, right, like if they're not getting the feedback and they think they're doing good. And this is this is my biggest problem with all of this is, I think it's going to lead to a lot of shock and surprise because we were not good at giving feedback on a regular, regular basis, and so you do this quarterly review out of nowhere and suddenly it's like well, bruce doesn't think very highly of me, but he's never expressed that before.

Speaker 2: 27:38

It's like well, I was normally given the opportunity like you know, just kind of you, just always kind of done your job, and like, well, whatever roll my eyes, like, yeah, you know, also in a company sense it's, you start your role and if your company doesn't have a good feedback mechanism which, I'll be honest, mine doesn't and then you get to your annual review and you're like, oh shoot, I gotta meet expectations, like why? And then you have to figure all that out right there of like understanding well, what does success look like? What am I supposed to be doing that I'm not doing? And how do I get to those upper levels? And I think that's what's so crappy about it is, companies suck at giving feedback, and so then people get into these frustrating situations to your point of like they see it for the first time. They're like, oh shoot, I'm not doing good, and they don't even know that they weren't doing good, which is really unfortunate.

Speaker 1: 28:26

You know, I would say that's honestly one of my biggest frustrations in being a more type, a sort of driven individual.

Speaker 1: 28:35

And I wonder if you feel the same way, clark is, when you're very good at your job and you know you're good at it and everyone else knows you're good at it, it's really hard to get constructive feedback Because one I think people are afraid well, well, maybe I'm not as good as bruce at what I do, so I don't. Who am I to tell bruce like he needs to be better at delivering content with calls to action, you know, like just random example, like I don't, I don't know, like I need that kind of constructive feedback, but I never get it. I'm always like, oh, you know, you're doing great, you're doing great. Because I think there's a fear like, oh well, if I tell Bruce where he can improve, then he's, he's a rockstar, like we don't want to crush his spirits and make him think about going, but it's like I need that, like I'm never going to grow if I don't have that. And I think that's another very American problem where we're very cautious about telling good people how they can be better.

Speaker 2: 29:32

Yeah, absolutely, and I'm right there with you. You and I have a very similar personality type and I can't tell you how many times I've been given negative feedback on my reviews. It truly is like yeah, you're so great at what you do and you're an awesome asset to the company. Keep up the good work, and that's it. That's the review and I'm like okay, but you know, tell me, tell me what I can improve on and like how I can grow and how I can get better. And I think that's where the companies have really struggled and all the managers that I've had have struggled. It's they can't really tell me that.

Speaker 2: 30:01

You know, it's like it's very arbitrary and kind of, when I asked those things, they're like well, overall, we think you're doing well. You know, maybe a little better on your communication and your presentations, and I'm like what, like? What do you mean? Like, let's break that down. What about my communications or what about my presentations needs to be improved and how can I do it? And they're like well, you know there's been a couple examples of X, y and Z and it just.

Speaker 2: 30:25

You know, I think the pressure of A-type individuals like you and myself is we really do the extra work to figure out what great looks like. And we set that bar for ourselves. Like we go outside of our company and we say what does a really good business case look like? And we like, do that research and then bring it back into the company of this is what we can do to improve and you're kind of setting that trend, is what we can do to improve and you're kind of setting that trend.

Speaker 2: 30:50

I think the challenge to that, and the thing I always struggle with, is like okay, if I'm going to keep on getting backpats and I don't know if you feel this way, bruce, about your company but or companies that you've worked with in the past if you keep getting backpats and not getting like constructive feedback, it's the question that becomes am I growing, am I improving? Am I, you know, giving my all at work that you know is really going to make a big benefit to the company? And I feel like that's where I struggle the most is like, okay, I'm just being told you know, keep doing what you're doing, but I want to do more and I don't know what more looks like.

Speaker 1: 31:20

That's the hardest part. That is the hardest part, like I genuinely struggle in my my current role and I think in all of my recent roles where I've kind of been a leader of the thing that I own on being better at the thing Right, it's not being arrogant, right, right, and I think that's the thing it's like it's truly saying.

Speaker 2: 31:44

It's like no one's giving me constructive. Everyone just kind of listens to the direction that I'm giving. Or you know the feedback that I'm giving, but no one's giving me constructive. Everyone just kind of listens to the direction that I'm giving, or you know the feedback that I'm giving, but no one's giving that to me. So I don't feel like I'm growing because I'm not getting that type of feedback it's.

Speaker 1: 31:56

It's rough because, like, I need that, you know like, and, and you know to bring. Bring it all back to a point. You see people getting backpats for doing their job. Meanwhile you're over here busting your hump and, uh, you don't get good, bad, otherwise feedback. It's what do you do right, like, I don't know? And I know it becomes more and more difficult the higher up you go, and that's probably just something I'm dealing with is in in development. When I was the the worm of the bunch and I sucked at my job, it was very easy to give me feedback because I sucked at my job and I had a bad attitude and no one liked me. So you know, like, there's a lot of things working for me there. But you know, now it's much more difficult because I'm great at my job, I am high up in the company and no one likes me, but they're not willing to tell me that. So you know they stay quiet. Uh, yeah, it's, it's rough, you're way too humble plenty of people liked you.

Speaker 2: 32:54

You did great at everything you did I think you struggled with the direction. I think you struggled with the direction of what we should be doing I was a terrible developer.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Uh, I still I did struggle with the direction, but that doesn't change the fact that I was terrible at development.

Speaker 2: 33:10

Oh man, those were the days we said at the beginning.

Speaker 2: 33:13

But yeah, I think that's the that's the biggest challenge to all this and that's why it's so hard to you know, understand how to grow in companies, and I haven't yet been to a company that does this well and can actually give you kind of the growth that you need. Because, I'll be honest, like even with everything we're saying and at my company now, I don't get the highest rating. Do I know why I don't get the highest rating? No, does it drive me crazy that I don't no-transcript reason I've ever heard in my life and then you're not giving me any constructive feedback for how I can get there and here's the thing like, unless you're a uh, uh, what is it not?

Speaker 1: 34:06

not a sociopath, what? What's the word for a liar? Just like a chronic liar.

Speaker 2: 34:12

Oh shoot, Both of my brains are going blank now, huh.

Speaker 1: 34:14

I can't believe it. Someone's going to tell us in the Discord.

Speaker 2: 34:18

A compulsive liar. There's a word for a compulsive liar.

Speaker 1: 34:24

Jeez, someone's going to roast us in the Discord, absolutely Unless you're one of those. We talk all the time about your work, both on and off the podcast, and I hear a lot about what you do and all I can think is man, if I had Clark in my PM organization that any job I've ever had what a difference there would be. Like you look like a shining beacon in a land full of dirt and grime compared to what I see. So like to hear that you're not even getting full marks, but not an explanation as to why it's. It's infuriating because you know again and this is the issue, right, like as an outside observer, if I was to give you feedback, I'd say you know, the only feedback I can give you is you know, kill your coworkers because they suck and you got to replace them. You need people that are like you.

Speaker 2: 35:13

You need people that are like you and better than you to motivate you to be better, right, but uh, you bring it all back it's like you know, to the arrogant note that I made. It's it's acknowledging that and I think you feel the same way. I am not the best at what I do and there's still a lot to learn, I know it. You know, I can kind of see examples out there where I'm like that is a really good example. Or I see leaders in my current company where I'm like they're doing an awesome job but because the company sucks at giving feedback, I don't get that feedback and I don't know how to get there. So unless I have to you know I figured out on my own. I'm kind of left out to dry of being like I don't know how to get to that level, to what great looks like, like I don't think I'm, you know, god's gift to the world. I know there's improvement, but I want to be given that direction and that's what's missing.

Speaker 1: 35:54

It's, it's really hard, it's just frustrating.

Speaker 2: 36:14

It's so frustrating. It's so frustrating when you're saying it. It kind of comes back to CAC. You know, I know we, we built this acronym or this, let's say, calculation of understanding. You know, at my company now, is it providing me, kind of those things is a different ranking for all of us and I think you know, going back to my CAC, that I shared is challenge is one of the biggest ones and if I'm not being challenged I frankly just lose interest because I'm like I don't know how to grow, I'm kind of just doing the mundane, Don't feel like I'm learning anything, and that's a reason why you would lose me as an employee is if I'm not being challenged. So I think it's really important that we understand, you know, especially if you're a manager. Going back to the episode we have with Papa Yonk what's the motivation of this person on my team and how do I continue to grow them regardless of this you know stupid grading system that happens in the company how can I grow that person rather than just giving them this arbitrary number?

Speaker 1: 37:07

I love that you went back to the Papa Yonk episode, and if you, the listener, have not listened to the episode where we had Danny Yonkers on to talk about management, stop listening. It's a far better podcast than this one. Just go back. Go back and listen to that. It's so good. I think about that episode.

Speaker 1: 37:24

I was thinking about it this week. I had to do some managerial tasks with my team and I was just like, oh, if I could be half the manager Papa Yonk was, I wouldn't be in this situation. I want to work for him. Where is he? I want to be managed by Papa Yonk.

Speaker 1: 37:40

But, yeah, how do we fix it? Let's end it on a positive note. How do we fix, I think, one. The thing that I'm screaming in the back of my mind is I'm going to be better about asking people who I think are comfortable with me to give me honest feedback and see what I can get, and I will report back to you on how that goes, cause I'm frustrated with what I'm getting and I don't know what to give others, and I think, on that end, I'm getting and I don't know what to give others, and I think, on that end, I'm going to, I'm going to reach out to people who you know, send me these things and say hey, if you want to spend 15 minutes, talk to your score. I'm happy to get on the phone and have a very candid conversation with you and we'll see how that plays. We'll see if I get fired or not.

Speaker 2: 38:29

You know, I think those are both great things to my control and I think that's the important thing to think about. And exactly what you just did, bruce, is you mentioned two things that are within your control. I can ask for feedback and I can give honest feedback to others and, you know, explain why, go beyond what is just being asked for me to. You know, put in the numbers, I can spend the extra time to give them valuable feedback. I think for me, you know, as a manager of a decent sized team, I instill, you know we have smart goals, we have to set that kind of ladder up all the way up, and you know it is on this grading system. It's stupid and I don't think it's valuable.

Speaker 2: 39:00

And so for my team, I actually instill, you know, a competency checklist and it kind of basically tells them how am I going to get that highest score as a part of Clark's team? And on that checklist it really is a career checklist of to be a X level product manager. These are the competencies I want to see from you, and if you do these things, you not only will be achieving the things on the next level. So let's say you're a product manager, now you want to be a senior product manager, the checklist actually tells you okay, this competency is actually a senior product manager competency. I need to strive to try and do this one more, and so I sit with my team and it takes a lot of time, but we have this checklist, we go through it together for each one, and the best thing that I love about it, bruce, is we leave the conversation with let's set some actionable goals based on these competencies, to see how we can get you to that next level, and some of the things are on me as the manager to create the opportunity and space for my team to do it.

Speaker 2: 40:00

And I tell them I'm like you can't be successful on this or grow to that next level unless I step back and let you drive it. So let me do that. I'm going to step out of this. You hold me accountable to that, and we're going to get you to this next level, and so I think that's one of my favorite things about it is, even though it's not a like corporate sanctioned process, I think it helps my team grow, and I think if you're a manager and you have the ability to do that and you feel like your company doesn't give you the feedback loops to do that. You should try and create your own so that your team can grow.

Speaker 1: 40:30

I love that. I love that because, just like what I was going to say with my feedback, you're doing things within your control and I think that that's probably something we need to come back to more on this pod as a takeaway is go do good where you can do good in your workplace and don't seek to change the gears that grind. Be the oil that makes your gears grind more smoothly. You know like I think that's the big takeaway from both of our parts is, when it comes to these kind of things, is do what's within your power to do. I like that. You created your own little score sheet and you've explained it and made sense of it Great, great feedback.

Speaker 2: 41:11

Clark. Yes, great tips and yeah, I think we should always end it on that Like what's within your control, Because unfortunately, some of these you know monolithic size companies. You really can't do much in some of these scenarios. So control what's in your zone of influence and try to make it better for the folks around you and we'll be happier, happier place because of it, I think so I hope so, I pray so.

Speaker 1: 41:37

Me too well, great, I think we did it again. Clark, uh, you know, to our audience. Hey, if you like this episode, five star review. Anything less is failure. I'm giving you the criteria, so you know five or don't even bother.

Speaker 2: 41:51

I don't want your rating if it's less than five if you don't review the pod.

Speaker 1: 41:55

You've given us a one star.

Speaker 2: 41:56

That's basically what you've done, so oh, we're gonna also do an audit. Everyone in our discord. If you haven't rated it, we're you out the discord because we really don't want the constructive criticism.

Speaker 1: 42:07

Hey, before we get into how you get into that discord, um, I got something for you, clark. Oh no, you know what it's called. It's a, it's a game show. We've got a podcast called what do you mean? Oh, meme. First, I forgot about this. It's our weekly game show. You can play it in the Discord. It is contributors or listeners like you will contribute memes that summarize the previous episode or something we've said, and we have to describe the meme public to you. And guess what? Clark, it's your turn, oh.

Speaker 2: 42:37

I hate this I hate this game.

Speaker 1: 42:39

I need you to look at what's in the what Do you Mean? Channel and describe that meme to me buddy, oh boy.

Speaker 2: 42:47

Well, thank you, Alex, for this one. I really appreciate you tagging me. And then, Bruce, you piling on and saying you're not going to tag me so I can't prep for it. Appreciate that, so I'm just looking at it now. This is my first view Excellent.

Speaker 1: 43:04

And it's incredible, and all these people are not the same people right.

Speaker 2: 43:05

Uh, I think they. I think they kind of are all right, let me. Let me give you some word, word memes, because that's how they're supposed to be delivered through the word of mouth, not through sight, uh-huh. So it's a tweet and it says linkedin park in relation to lincoln park and they basically have five photos of people. I'm not sure if they're the same people or different people. I'll be honest.

Speaker 1: 43:28

Two of them are the same. Three, two of them.

Speaker 2: 43:32

Three are the one guy, two are the other.

Speaker 1: 43:34

Yeah, he's missing glasses.

Speaker 2: 43:36

Yeah, they're collaged together and the response to the tweet says applied so hard and got so far, but in the end I wasn't even hired one thing I don't know why.

Speaker 1: 43:49

It doesn't even matter how hard you try.

Speaker 2: 43:50

Yeah how hard you apply, got them.

Speaker 1: 43:55

Oh, oh, that's good keep that in mind, I designed this rhyme to help you get jobs in time Ooh nice Got him.

Speaker 2: 44:05

We're going to make a whole LinkedIn kind of parody for the corporate space, maybe one day.

Speaker 1: 44:11

I think, our corporate fam Discord, which, if you want to get in the fun on what Do you Meme and all the other great conversations in there, all you have to do is go to the show notes, click on our Linktree link, which will get you access to the discord. Our website, the shop that doesn't work, which, by the way, clark, I know why it doesn't work. I've reached out to customer support.

Speaker 1: 44:29

I need your help, uh okay, we can fix that offline and all kinds of other things. If you want to get there, just click that link. It'll take you to all the great places. Please join our discord. We. We love the collaboration and communication and hearing from you directly, and there's just way better people on there than us that you can communicate with.

Speaker 2: 44:46

It keeps growing. It keeps growing. Papi Yonk is in there. If you want to talk about management, we got Chief.

Speaker 1: 44:51

Postman.

Speaker 2: 44:53

Yeah, capitalist Correspondent, alex Restrepo, talking about anything you want to talk. He honestly, like you can talk to that man about anything. So come in talk to him about literally anything. So come in talk to them about literally anything. And then, of course, you've got Squidboy been on a few times. You want to learn about cybersecurity?

Speaker 1: 45:08

Hit them in the chat. Individual contributor number one topic submitter individual contributors. In there, we just got peeps on peeps, just peeps on peeps. She keeps growing. I love it. Great, it's great. Get in there, join us or die.

Speaker 2: 45:22

Ouch, that was a tough ending. Or you said it casually, or die.

Speaker 1: 45:28

You know well, in marketing you always want to hook them. You know that's how you hooked them. Give them the cliffhanger.

Speaker 2: 45:34

I'm trying to give them a fud fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Speaker 1: 45:38

I'm going right into the fear. Join us or die.

Speaker 2: 45:42

I hate that so much. There's your options. Well, we have a website. We got a link tree. Everything's in the show notes. We also have a newsletter. Sign up for the newsletter. I think it failed to go out last week, so I'm going to look into that.

Speaker 1: 45:54

But I think a lot of things are not working on your automation side because I got a note from a capitalist correspondent, alex Restoppo. A note from capitalist correspondent Alex Restoppo pointing out that the episodes on our website are off as well.

Speaker 2: 46:06

What is going on? What is happening?

Speaker 1: 46:07

Only you can answer that question Clark.

Speaker 2: 46:09

Well, our store is broken. I'm a terrible developer. We'll get that fixed. Just, squidboy, don't hack us, thanks.

Speaker 1: 46:19

That's right.

Speaker 2: 46:20

We'll hack ourselves.

Speaker 1: 46:21

The penetration tester, who could probably get into all of our stuff if we're not careful. So we have to appease the listeners. I think that's all we got for this week. So thank you, as always, for listening. We appreciate your listenership. If you want to help the show, you can do so by clicking support us in our link tree. You know how to get there already. We appreciate anything we can get. I don't got a clever fun sign off. I don't got. I'm not going to say soup to nuts or something stupid like that, because screw that, you know what. It didn't even matter. It didn't even matter. I'm Bruce, I'm Clark and you're all on mute. We'll see you next week.