Speaker 2: 0:01

oh, hey, craig as craig came on, penny barged into my office and is now doing a freaking barrel roll, squish, dive into my beanbag chair. I can kind of hear something in the background. Let me just wait for her to finish. Okay, she is she is now penny penny, have your time.

Speaker 1: 0:21

Take your time, get comfy and sit down, because we're going for a ride this episode For the listeners.

Speaker 2: 0:28

Penny is our golden doodle. She's almost two years old. She's a little mini. She's 17 pounds. They say you're not supposed to have favorites when it comes to your children. Penny is definitely my favorite.

Speaker 1: 0:40

Is she your favorite?

Speaker 2: 0:41

Oh, by far, by far. Well, it's kind of like I told my wife I was like it's messed up because for our entire dog's lives the two older dogs will always be with her. No matter what room she's in, they follow her around and I'm like this is, you know, one of my chopped liver, penny, actually wants to be at the room with me so she earns points. She's bonding with you.

Speaker 1: 1:02

That makes sense I like she loves hanging out with pop pop, so it's so funny. Dog's personalities just crack me up. You think people got unique personalities. Wait till you get some dogs and you're just like how, how are you guys different? We have a couple dogs from the same litter and literally they're they're completely different, like a hundred percent, 180 different directions, like they are just so opposite. It's so interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Penny's father lives two doors down from us and like really it's night and day personality. I did not know that. They're both very sweet but like penny's very shy. He's very outgoing, it's.

Speaker 1: 1:37

It's weird huh, it's a nature, person nurture. Uh, maybe I don't.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Does that apply to dogs? She was always like that because we had her. We got her when she was eight weeks old. Yeah, tiny.

Speaker 1: 1:49

Yeah, it's interesting, then it's got to be. It's got to be nature right.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Her siblings were very um, kind of chaotic and crazy, but she was very shy. She was the quiet one. Now she is a little crazy, but she's still shy. She's just a little pup. She's still shy, she's just a little pup.

Speaker 1: 2:03

She's a little baby. She's a good girl. You can't blame her. No, also breaking news. Breaking news. All these listeners need to know this is huge, huge.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Officially on our site oh.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Should we do it or should we announce first? What do you think we should start with?

Speaker 2: 2:19

All right, do it real fast this time Okay. Welcome back to Corporate Strategy Kapada. This could be an email. I'm Bruce and I'm Clark.

Speaker 1: 2:26

Go ahead, breaking news, breaking news Our shop is back online. Oh, thank God I want to hear some claps.

Speaker 2: 2:36

I was so worried.

Speaker 1: 2:38

It just was everything was flying off the shelf before so Months.

Speaker 2: 2:48

Months People were messaging Bruce. I the shout before. So month, month before messaging bruce, I can't buy the corporate strategy mouse pad why can't I?

Speaker 1: 2:51

why is this not? And why can I add it to my cart? Well, the site was broken, but it's fixed. Hey, break us what. Even more breaking news. We have a mouse pad. Where is the mouse pad? We've got stickers and the most requested items. We have an organic contrast ss baby body suit oh, are you serious?

Speaker 1: 3:12

clark, it's there, I'm not kidding it's right there for the children that we don't have. It's online. A new baby you brought to this world in the last you know, couple months. Go to our website and buy the contrast ss baby body suit.

Speaker 2: 3:29

It's organic fun fact about our shop is we don't profit off of it at all. The prices are low because we get nothing.

Speaker 1: 3:38

We actually buy off our own shop to send you guys gifts whenever you win a mug or whatever it is, so you're welcome I think we are at a net zero when it comes to the swag for corporate strategy.

Speaker 2: 3:48

I will breaking news, clark, breaking breaking news. I have amazing news, probably more amazing than the shop being back online that we make no money on.

Speaker 1: 3:57

I don't know, I don't know if you can beat the organic baby sst I might be able to one-up it well.

Speaker 2: 4:04

Well, someone certainly did. We had an anonymous donor who, I think I'm pretty sure I know who they are, but they will remain anonymous because that's what they donated, as who has donated enough money for us to go ad-free for a year. That's right, holy cow. For the longest time we have joked that this was a host-funded podcast. That is true. No more. We are now listener-supported, just like NPR and other public podcast radio functions out there. Listener, we thank you so much for your donation and everyone who's in the discord and everyone who's listening to the show. Be sure to you know, send out the best vibes to this anonymous donor, because they're the reason for the season here's the season.

Speaker 1: 4:55

Thank you so much. I mean that's awesome, that's so cool to kind of see you guys pitch in and I know the ads were a little annoying, but this all comes out of bruce's account. So we had to do something and one of you guys stepped up and you paid for it for a whole year. So if you guys want to keep it ad free, feel free to buy us a coffee.

Speaker 2: 5:12

We'd love it. Now's the time. So you know, if you're thinking about, hey, these guys have done me a favor or two in my life or they've made me laugh, then literally a dollar today means that one year from now, collectively, if you've all given, we can do another year ad free, and it's great because I don't have to pay for it, you don't have to listen to stupid ads. We're not here to turn a profit, we're just here to not take money out of my bank account. So if you're feeling frisky or you want to help us out and go to the link tree in our show notes, can buy us a coffee. That's the best way to send us a little bit of your ched and we'd be ever grateful that is huge breaking news.

Speaker 1: 5:50

Thank you guys. So much for the giant donation and, yeah, keep it going, we'll keep it going, as I mean we do this for nothing, but we will keep it going regardless. You just need to buy us coffees to keep ads off. So pretty good deal. It's pretty, pretty good deal. Hey Clark, we've been doing this for how long have we been doing this? For A couple years.

Speaker 2: 6:09

Over two years now, for sure. That's crazy. We're approaching three. If not, we just started three. It's close.

Speaker 1: 6:15

Yeah, yeah, I think like Did we start 2022?.

Speaker 2: 6:19

Let's see Hold on.

Speaker 1: 6:20

It's got to be 2022.

Speaker 2: 6:21

I can get an answer real quick.

Speaker 1: 6:23

Just you know, Because we have 120.

Speaker 2: 6:27

This will be the 129th episode Wild. See, let's see, I'm doing the scroll, I'm just doing the infinite scroll. This could have been an email July 14th 2021.

Speaker 1: 6:40

Wow, uh-huh so we just hit the end of year three we hit our third year.

Speaker 2: 6:47

That's crazy. This is year four.

Speaker 1: 6:51

Year four of corporate strategy. Do we know what we're doing yet? No, but we'll figure it out eventually.

Speaker 2: 6:57

No, I mean what's even crazier than you know doing. Three years of podcasts, we have put out clark, 128 episodes wild, wild featuring we make it amazing guests and we've managed to not repeat ourselves all that much. So you know, get that going for us too.

Speaker 1: 7:22

Amazing guests, amazing content, an acronym. We got cack out of this. Yeah, cack, oh my gosh cack is an awesome discord community it's I mean it's been blown up lately.

Speaker 2: 7:32

It's been awesome to see the growth I love I'm patting myself on the back right now. Me too. Physically. Screw it, why not? I hope you can hear that. Yeah, no, penny's giving me a strange look. She's like why is he doing this?

Speaker 1: 7:44

yeah, the the way our dogs look at us. You wonder what they're thinking. They're like, wow, you do Will they just give me food, that's all I want.

Speaker 2: 7:52

That's all most of us want at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Well.

Speaker 2: 7:56

I love that.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Breaking news. Yeah, I mean, that was awesome. We had three segments of breaking news and now we got real news.

Speaker 2: 8:01

So yeah, I actually found something that I think is worth a share this week. So this actually comes from linkedin news, believe it or not. They they put out the thing that I was like we have to discuss this, so I'm just going to read this. This is a linkedin news story on their own linkedin news network by leah carroll. Editor at linkedin news. Last year, an Ohio judge handed down an unusual sentence to a woman who threw a burrito bowl at a Chipotle employee, an incident captured on viral video. He would reduce her jail time if she worked in the fast food industry for 60 days. Quote this wasn't about punishment, it was about teaching empathy, he explained. But in a time when low-wage workplaces are chronically understaffed, automation has reduced human contact and COVID has changed customer behavior, the judges quote empathy. Punishment failed to inspire a breakthrough in compassion between the burrito thrower and her victim. According to both women, oh.

Speaker 1: 9:02

I was really hoping that it would have made like a huge difference and now they respected him more and the world's a little bit of a better place.

Speaker 2: 9:10

I think 60 days is not enough. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1: 9:13

I mean, listen, we talk about this all the time 90 days before you're even effective, and I think that applies, you know, to every single job. I don't think there's anything, just jump in and being awesome at or even just get a feel, for You're kind of just on trial period. I think it's either 90 or 120 days, if you don't hate your job.

Speaker 2: 9:29

90 days in you have not worked enough.

Speaker 1: 9:34

Are you even a corporate citizen? No, if you still like your job after 90 to 120 days, if you like your job.

Speaker 2: 9:40

If you're in the 30, 60, 90, and you love your job, after 90th day, you're gonna get fired like just just let them know you are going to get fired.

Speaker 1: 9:49

Either you're getting fired or you should probably check your bank, because you probably haven't gotten paid for whatever you're enjoying, correct?

Speaker 2: 9:55

you've been scammed. You have been scammed by the system. You should really hate your by by like 67 days. You should really be thinking about like I hate my job, I hate my life, you're, I can't do this.

Speaker 1: 10:07

That's how you should feel Yep Immediately looking for other jobs Right Updating the resume even though you just did it, thinking grass is greener, even though you just hopped and realized it wasn't. But you're going to keep trying anyways.

Speaker 2: 10:19

Think about the golden years of your previous job. That's how you should be feeling 90 days in, I agree.

Speaker 1: 10:24

If you don't, I love this Maybe check with your doctor I really think there should be something while you're in a corporate role where if you think someone's annoying or bad at their job, you have to do it. A little many days we'll do a little uh, what was the? What was the thing? We'll do a little swap, like a parent swap, you know. Yeah, a little swap of roles being like, oh fine, I gotta do bruce's stupid marketing thing and then you gotta do the thing you hate most be a product manager. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 10:54

I love this. I I kind of do too. I think it's a great. I mean, the judge said this is how you create empathy, and I agree. Now this here's the problem. I think the major issue with this specific story the kind of person who's going to throw a burrito bowl at a minimum wage employee is not the kind of person who's going to throw a burrito bowl at a minimum wage employee is not the kind of person you could save. Sure, you know, like I'm sorry, there are some people out there that you just can't save, and if you are so beneath yourself to where you think, oh, I know how I'm going to live my day by throwing a burrito bowl at a minimum wage employee, you know there's no amount of fixing you, you're just yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:34

You are the worst yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:36

But You're the reason the world's a bad place.

Speaker 2: 11:39

I do think that if maybe a week out of the year, all of us had to do a week of minimum wage labor pick your poison, you'll still get paid your original amount, but like garbage, you know, uh, garbage pickup, fast food, warehouse stocking, like you choose and you do one we would be so much more empathetic and kind because I think the majority of us wouldn't throw the burrito bowl, but also could learn a thing or two about how hard these jobs are.

Speaker 1: 12:12

Yeah, I 100% agree with you. I actually I had an employer that we had a front of line team that operated retail and then obviously we were like back of house technology and for a couple days I think it was like three or four days a year we'd have to go out and basically work front of the line and obviously we couldn't pick anything that was like super well trained or anything like that. We had to pick something that was like pretty, you know, just helping out, guiding people, being a welcome greeter person or whatever. But I'll be honest, it was really great because you got to see at least in that role you know the technology that we're working on. You got to see people at least in that role. You know the technology that we're working on. You got to see people actually use it. Or you got to see employees actually use the technology that you're working on. If you're building, you know in-house tools.

Speaker 1: 12:58

And it was honestly great because, as a product manager at that time, you know an engineer. I really got to see firsthand how are people using these things and it gives you ideas of what sucks and how can we make it better. And I think one of the best parts was the other retail employees around you didn't know where you worked, so they would just talk smack the whole time. They'd be like man, this piece of software sucks. It's so slow. Every time we jump in and use it like you just kind of sit there and like take it, but then you go back and you're like I have awesome ideas now of why this isn't working or what we can improve.

Speaker 2: 13:31

I tell you what, clark, when I work conferences and I'm, you know, working a booth or just kind of hanging around the booth and I hear people smack talk the work I do, but it's not fellow employees or, you know, management, it's just randos. That's the most valuable feedback I can get. Like, oh, I would pay for that. I truly would pay for someone just to insult the work I do, because truly that's what I care about it. It always frustrates me to no end when you have someone come in that you know has very little investment in the work outside of the fact that they work in the same company as you and tell you, oh, this sucks Like. Thanks, mr Product Manager.

Speaker 2: 14:10

You're not a marketer, so what do you know? It's always product management for some reason, but every single time. But when you get it from a rando one, the feedback is always so specific and different. Right, it is never what you think it is. Maybe you can attest to this when you're testing. You went through, but you always have these ideas in the back of your head oh, they're not going to like it because it's too purple or the words aren't clear enough, but then they'll say something like no, I don't like this because it invokes rage in me, and the thing that invokes rage is specifically how you say your product is better Like it. It always comes down this really weird track that just blindsides you, but it's the most valuable feedback you can get.

Speaker 1: 14:56

Absolutely yeah, it's. It's either they give you like specific feedback that you know they just say, hey, this thing sucks, or whatever, or you just watch them use it and you're like wait, wait, wait, hold on. You use it this way Like they. They jump into different segments of the product or they start like sorting in different ways and they're like, wait, you actually care like about how this functions. We had no idea, and so it really does kind of spark those breakthroughs on how people are using it and why and I loved it I've got a buzzword bingo for you. Oh, I want to hear it eat your own dog food. Oh, I hate it, I hate it I hate it.

Speaker 1: 15:30

I'll post it, it in the channel after that. But this kind of reminded me of it is you can either kind of go firsthand, go observe whatever, or you can just use your own product and over time you'll kind of realize what works, what doesn't, where the problems are. But if you never use your own product then you'll never really know, and if you never observe people actually using your product, you'll never know either. So both of these are great strategies to find what works and what doesn't.

Speaker 2: 15:53

The kind of person who would say eat your own dog food is all hat, no cowboy.

Speaker 1: 15:58

I love it. Yes, yeah, that's my favorite one. I love it. I've not seen it in real life yet.

Speaker 2: 16:05

But it's gone. I need to use it. And if you're a first-time listener or a new listener and you're wondering where do these come from, it's the Discord. You have to get in the Discord because the best buzzwords get dropped in there and it's rage-inducing. Get in there.

Speaker 1: 16:23

It is so rage-inducing it makes you just want to throw something across the table because you're like why it makes you want to throw a burrito bowl at a human being.

Speaker 2: 16:29

I don't know why table because you're like, why it makes you want to throw a burrito bowl at a human being.

Speaker 1: 16:31

I don't know why. I mean, I'll be honest, there's been times when I'm sitting in a conference room and someone across me just says the stupidest thing, and I just want to pick up my laptop and just chuck it right across the table, frisbee style, right to the dome you could.

Speaker 2: 16:47

if maybe this is, maybe this is me, but like if I was at Chipotle and I saw someone sneeze in my food you know an employee I wouldn't throw the bowl back at them. I'd be like, oh yeah, I'm not going to eat this. But like I wouldn't be mad, I would never take it. There's no circumstance in which I would throw something at a minimum wage worker. Their life is harder than mine. I just can't do it. There's no circumstance in which I would throw something at a minimum wage worker. Their life is harder than mine. I just can't do it. But if you told me, bruce, you could throw a burrito bowl at a CEO or a top-level executive of your choosing, I'd be like when and where and how much do I need to pay you for the pleasure? Absolutely, I'd tiptoe in.

Speaker 1: 17:28

I'd be like is this a trap? Is this an HR trap? Is HR trying to trap me? Do I induce violence Because the answer is yes.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Yes is the answer. I think back. I think back to some of the leaders I used to work with. I could throw some burrito bowls. Let me tell you Absolutely. I'd do like a satellite strike, burrito bowl drop. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 17:50

I would do the double satellite strike, burrito bowl drop. You know what I'm saying? I would do the double-handed on the side of the face, face right in the middle, so you get rice all up in the ears, guacamole in the hair.

Speaker 2: 17:58

That's what you want Extra hot sauce, so it's a little itchy after the fact, ooh, yeah, ooh, I like it.

Speaker 1: 18:04

This is devious.

Speaker 2: 18:06

It's still better than they deserve. It's still better than they deserve. I agree, it's still better than they deserve.

Speaker 1: 18:10

Everyone needs to remember. Do not throw your food back into a window of a drive-thru. Please be civilized.

Speaker 2: 18:17

I swear we have fallen so far. Where has this world come to Good question, but I do know this. You brought a topic for today and I'm proud of you, Clark.

Speaker 1: 18:37

I've been bringing a lot of topics. I think the last three they're you. That's so crazy. Since when am I the idea guy? I don't know. You're on a roll. I used to come to this podcast and I didn't know what time it was, what day it was, and you'd just be like, all right, we're doing this. Do you know what we're talking about? I'd be like, nope, yep those were the days.

Speaker 2: 18:50

Those were truly, truly the days of Bruce doing everything.

Speaker 1: 18:54

I mean, you still do pretty much everything.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Well, I feel like it's pretty 50-50. I mean, now that we've removed the money from the equation, it does feel like it's both of us carrying this horse together. I love it.

Speaker 1: 19:06

That's a great buzzword Carry your own horse, Carry your horse together. Does that make sense? Not at all. I'll be honest, I could totally spout that nonsense in a meeting and everybody would nod like yep, sounds good.

Speaker 2: 19:20

Ooh, that should be a game. That should be a game we play. We make up the dumbest buzzword ever and then challenge in the Discord people to use it. I will use carry your own horse at work this week. I promise you I will use it and I will tell you how I used it on the next episode I'll be honest in some of the meetings I've totally said things wrong and no one ever corrects it.

Speaker 2: 19:42

So I know, I know I could squeeze some of these in and I totally will my my cmo who I don't know if he listens to this or not, but but I'm cool sharing this is a perfectionist and he catches me all the time making up words or using them incorrectly and will laugh or message me and be like I caught you, I saw what you did and I kind of love it because for the longest time I've gotten away with it and no one's ever questioned, because if you say something confidently, people just look past it. But he catches me and it's nice. It's like joker batman kind of thing and uh, I'm gonna make sure to say carry your own horse in front of him just to get his reaction.

Speaker 1: 20:20

You know, I I think that's so wholesome. It's actually super cool because it's like he's laughing or he's reaching out to you to be like, hey, nice save that was. That was really bad, but you pulled it together and that was a great save.

Speaker 2: 20:33

No one notices. No one notices. I say the most dumb, weird crap and he's the only one. He'll smile, he'll laugh. I'll catch it Now. I'm just doing it on purpose, because I know, it's actually pretty funny.

Speaker 1: 20:47

And you know what it's going to help you too. It's going to help you become more articulate, you it's actually pretty funny, and you know what it's going to help you too. It's going to help you become more articulate. You're going to be more conscious of it. It's going to all work out well.

Speaker 2: 20:55

Well, it would help you if he was actually critical of it, but no, I think he enjoys it as much as I do.

Speaker 1: 20:58

Oh so he's encouraging you. That's the issue.

Speaker 2: 21:01

Yeah, Give me an ounce of attention Suddenly.

Speaker 1: 21:06

I'll awesome, but yes, we do have a topic. It's a good one too. I'm actually I'm excited to talk through it.

Speaker 2: 21:11

Yeah, I have this idea.

Speaker 1: 21:12

Last week's it is. Yeah, it builds on it a little bit actually. Yeah, we were kind of um, I was kind of thinking about the last topic and we've been chatting a lot in the discord so many different things flying around and all these different channels and idea came to mind and I messaged bruce and I was like hey, got this idea. What truly is the employer's responsibility versus the employee's responsibility?

Speaker 1: 21:34

I feel like in this hustle culture or this rat race that is the corporate world, so much is put on the employee to be responsible for and that's why a lot of people frankly fail or don't rise up in the ranks. And I think it does kind of build, like you're saying, you know the last, uh, last episode we're kind of talking or just things in the discord to talk about, like lack of training, like I think uh, I think it was chief podcast topic officer squid boy who brought up did anyone actually get management training when they went to management might have been an individual contributor, I can't remember and I think the the resounding answer was like no, most, most people just figured it out and that really is a failure on the employer. That's not the employee's fault. You've got to be trained when you're promoted to these new positions, you can't just be expected to do the job.

Speaker 1: 22:21

So I thought it would be fun for us to kind of break that down.

Speaker 2: 22:25

I don't know if you heard my interjection, but I said do you?

Speaker 1: 22:29

It's a good question yeah it is.

Speaker 2: 22:34

I love this topic because I think we might disagree on some things, and I'm excited to disagree with you. Let's fight, let's do it. I've wanted to fight you for so long. Let's just bloody up our faces.

Speaker 2: 22:44

You're aggressive, this podcast the burrito ball throwing people across from you and now you're saying you want to fight me, I'm gonna take you down. Clark down, please don't uh training, let's start there, because I think that's a that's a really good one. Just here's the thing about training the job you get. The job you apply for you should be able to do because you applied for the job. Right Now there are going to be things about the company particulars that you cannot know and that you will learn either through osmosis or through company onboarding and enablement. I think all of those things are provided by the company, the particulars. But if you're hired to be a product marketing manager and you show up and you say, hey, I need training on how to launch a product or do a product launch or how to create good product messaging, you should not have applied for that job. That is your responsibility. You said you could do it, do it.

Speaker 1: 23:49

So what defines and I love that you got specific with that role, because I was like, let's try to get specific, yeah, Like certain roles database administrator, product manager so what defines the skills, the know-how that you bring?

Speaker 2: 24:03

to the job. I mean, what's on the resume, what's in the job Description? Jd, the JD, thank you, I just had a little bit of a stroke. Uh, if we have another one I might have to go to the hospital. The?

Speaker 2: 24:17

If you said you could do this on the jd, you went through the interview process, you answered all the questions, they were satisfied then then you need to be able to do what's on the jd. Unless you explicitly said I can do everything on the JD except use Salesforce, I have no idea how to do that. But if you have some internal enablement or you're willing to let me do a one-week training course, then I'm happy to do that. If it's agreed upon as part of your hiring, then company responsibility, they agreed to it. But if you said, hey, yeah, I'm going to come in, I'm going to be a marketer and yeah, I can going to come in, I want to be a marketer and yeah, I can do, I can do everything in there, no problem. One of those things with Salesforce and you secretly couldn't do that. And then you show up and say, hey, I have no idea how to use Salesforce. You better go watch some YouTube videos and learn, because it is not the company's responsibility to teach you that.

Speaker 1: 25:08

Yeah, I agree, I think the JD is the kind of set of requirements or skills or experience that you're bringing to the table, and so the JD, your resume, should kind of reflect that. And when you kind of look through the things, you should be like, yeah, I can do the majority of these. But the question becomes do you have to disclose when you don't? Like, if I get through all the interviews and we didn't talk about you know, five of the 10 things do I need to disclose? Hey, I've never really done this before, cause I don't personally, I don't think I'd do that If I'm waiting on an offer.

Speaker 2: 25:46

Here's the problem, right, and we're going to get on the other side of this. I. Here's the problem, right, and we're going to get on the other side of this. I just like that. We started here because this feels like employee responsibility. If you get on site and you cannot do something critical, that's part of your job and you say, well, I need training to do this, I need the company to pay for me to do this. That was very dishonest, right? Like you were now in sneakers, what's that? You hired me. I didn't realize that when you accepted the JD and we went through the interview process and you, you know, firstly, I was expecting you. I ask everyone can you use JIRA during our interviews?

Speaker 1: 26:27

Because I don't want to use JIRA. See, this is what I'm getting at, though. This is why this topic is so interesting, because it's like if the interview process failed to interview for all the things, then whose fault is it? Is it the employer's fault, or is it the employee's fault for getting through all the rounds and not disclosing? I didn't know how to use salesforce this I mean in that scenario.

Speaker 2: 26:44

So let's say the interview failed, the interviewer failed to ask, the interviewee failed to disclose, still hired, they get hired, they're getting paid. Then I would say the company needs to suck it up at that point and pay for training.

Speaker 1: 27:01

I agree, like if you jump in and like, okay, cool, you know, now go jump into Salesforce, be like I actually. You know, it actually wasn't on my resume. I actually don't really know how to use that, so I'm happy to you know it actually wasn't on my resume. I actually don't really know how to use that, so I'm happy to you know, do my own research and, you know, find some training on it that works like as an employer. Are you going to be kind of pissed?

Speaker 1: 27:21

it wasn't on my resume, but it was in the jd and you just didn't ask me about it. I would be mad?

Speaker 2: 27:27

I would definitely be. I would think less of that person. It'd be a bad first impression. Speaking of 30, 60, 90, right, because this is probably showing itself in 30. I would be like, hmm, not a great start. Yeah, not a great start. Sure, part of this is on me for not asking, but not a good start.

Speaker 1: 27:47

Yeah, I agree it definitely is a little bit of both, I think in this scenario it's a little bit of both and in that case I think the employer's at the majority of the fall, because they have to vet these candidates. They made the decision and they hired this person. And if they didn't hire for the right skill sets or knowledge and it wasn't on the resume, what can you do now? If you lie on your resume to match the jd, then it's your fault, because if you get there, I mean you deserve to be let go.

Speaker 2: 28:17

at that point, if you're like, yeah, I actually don't know how to use salesforce, then you lied, you lied and it is on you I agree, and I think that's the big, that's the tipping point on this is if you put five years experience with salesforce on your resume and that's why I didn't ask you about the interview, because I assumed the truth in writing then I might actually go to yeah, hr or bring it up and say, hey, you openly lied about this. Um, you know, this is we're gonna pip you or whatever, because that's kind of unacceptable.

Speaker 1: 28:52

It's a deal breaker. At that point it's like listen, our culture here isn't about lying, you just broke one of the core values that we look at Like there's no way. Yeah, just in their first couple weeks. That's pretty awful. So I agree. But I think if the employer didn't ask and it wasn't on the resume, then it's totally on the employer. Like they got to figure out how they vet people better to find the skill sets, experience, tool, experience, whatever it is to be successful in that role. And if they failed to ask, then that's on them.

Speaker 2: 29:22

I agree, I agree, I think, I think that's a good bar. So let's, let's up-level this. Literally, you're getting promoted into a higher-tier management role. You were not a manager before. You are now Management training, the literal topic in our Discord. Who provides that?

Speaker 1: 29:41

Ooh.

Speaker 2: 29:44

Have you been management trained?

Speaker 1: 29:45

Clark no, nothing for me. I just kind of naturally got moved into it but there was no training. It was just like hey got moved into it but there was no like training. It was just like, hey, this person's on your team now I'm like, oh, all right, and I just kind of roll with it but danny on this episode is the most I've got, and that was already when I was six months into being a manager it's like what seven years for me of being a manager that might've been the most.

Speaker 1: 30:12

But yeah, yeah, I think management training like if you're going to promote somebody, obviously you think they have the leadership capabilities, they obviously have the know-how of the job, you think they're a good person to invest in for the company because you think you know they're going to stick around for a while.

Speaker 1: 30:28

So you're like, yeah, we should promote this person so they can build a team to do as awesome as they do. In that case I think you do have to kind of look through their previous experience and be like have they ever led people before you know, whether in the corporate setting or extracurriculars, whatever, you know? Have they ever led a club or like anything that could resemble some sort of leadership management? You know type situation? Because I think if you don't do that and you, you know, promote an individual contributor who's never had management training, when the hard stuff comes doing reviews, you know hard situations, hard conversations, being truthful and honest about things, not just doing the work, but you know, actually making sure they set the you know success criteria, criteria and then help teams be successful doing it instead of just doing it themselves.

Speaker 1: 31:14

The manager is going to fail, Agree, and they might not even know like they might not even know they're doing anything wrong, because I think I can't remember where I read this but the experience and stuff you did to get to that point is not what's going to make you successful in that next role. It's going to be something different if you're a manager.

Speaker 2: 31:32

Yes, agree, and this is perfectly the employer's responsibility, because this person has shown great skill and capability to be promoted into here, and if you choose to promote this individual to be a manager, it is on you to ensure that they have what they need to be successful there.

Speaker 1: 31:53

Right, yeah, and you got to look at their experience. Maybe they've done it before. Okay, cool, yeah, they've done this before. At least you know seem to have done it before, and if they haven't, you should probably look at them and be like, hey, you know, let's talk about being a manager One. You should probably make sure that person wants to be a manager. Sometimes, you know, badass, individual contributors just want to be individual contributors.

Speaker 1: 32:13

They don't want to manage people. They just want to do really, really good at what they do, and that's all right. So you probably should check before you're like great news, we're promoting you. And if you get an answer of no, you shouldn't be shocked. I mean, that just might not want. That might not be their career path. They want to go down. So it's totally respectable.

Speaker 1: 32:29

But, yeah, I agree, I think it's on the employer to make the decision, because it's a promotion, and then to offer the right amount of training. And, if anything, I think and let me know what you think management training is different per company. So there's a lot of company specifics about how do you kind of go through performance review process, like I posted about in the general channel today. How do you kind of go through you know, harder conversations? What's the expectation for employees in terms of availability and everything like? There's a lot of things that you need to kind of disclose to them so they're ready for those situations. Who's your HR contact that you need to reach out to? What does it look like to give someone an offer? I had to think of a million things that, frankly, I just had to figure out.

Speaker 2: 33:11

Oh man, you just kind of gave me a little bit of PTSD, which was why there was the silence there is. I just thought about all the things I don't know how to do as a manager.

Speaker 1: 33:19

Yeah, all those things come and you're just like, oh shoot, I can't do it, I didn't have.

Speaker 2: 33:22

Sunday's carries Clark. But now I do.

Speaker 1: 33:25

I'm sorry. Maybe Sundays are a bad idea for the podcast.

Speaker 2: 33:29

But that's totally I mean. Like you know, my shock aside, you're right, and there's so much Now. Granted, I work at a startup. It's different, right, Like I don't know what would have happened at my previous job if they promoted me to manager, if I would have gotten anything or not. But I feel like the answer would be no regardless. But there are so many pieces to being a manager and to go from being an IC to a manager and not having answers for a lot of those pieces, it means I have to go to my manager and say how do I do this? Right, like now, I'm bothering them to get their take on the situation, maybe even have them help me do it. It's just that's not a good place to be. And again, startup is different. We're all figuring, we're literally putting the wheels in the plane as it's taking off. It's, it's different. But again, it's not my fault if I don't know how to do that.

Speaker 1: 34:22

You know, like I, I didn't even think about some of the things that you just said that now are freaking me out, so'm sorry to induce PTSD, but yeah, it's important because I mean, I remember I've had a lot of failures, even in my current company, as a manager, because no one told me this is when we do performance reviews and this is how raises and promotions work. So I failed to get people raises and promotions because I just didn't know. And then people left because I'm like, yeah, I can't do anything for you, and then they found a better offer. I'm like I don't blame you. I obviously failed you as your manager to get you what you deserve because I didn't know the process. But it's a really crappy situation to be in and someone needs to train you and guide you through what's expected of management at that place.

Speaker 2: 35:06

Mm-hmm it is truly on the company to deal with company engagements like promotions or title changes or lateral movements. It doesn't matter where they move you to. If they choose to move you, it is on them to ensure you stay successful. Now you still have to do the things that they like, that you did or that you are going to do, but that responsibility falls solely to the employer. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1: 35:34

I've got another one for you.

Speaker 2: 35:36

I'm ready for it.

Speaker 1: 35:36

And we went through it together when your whole, entire company kind of shifts the way of working so a lot of people listening to this probably know it in the software world, switching from waterfall software development to agile software development, when Bruce and I were working together, our company did this and I actually think they did a really good job. But, bruce, I want to hear your take on like what you remember going through that transition and if you think it was good or bad.

Speaker 2: 36:03

So the reason why I love this one. Like we've gone from very clearly employee responsibility to the gray of employee employer to the clear employer. This one, this one is so weird thinking back on it, Like in the time I loved it. I think you loved it too, they said all right, y'all we're not doing waterfall anymore, we're doing agile, and I was.

Speaker 2: 36:26

I don't know I do what that is. Go to the first training session. I walk out of there it's like, wow, you can work this way. This is awesome, this is great. I can't wait. I'm excited, so much so that they made us cheerleaders for the program. But if you were at that company for 20 years which a lot of people were, and you've been working in Waterfall for 20 years and suddenly they're telling you, yeah, you're doing this Agile thing, you're doing it, and maybe they didn't take on to it so nicely. And we know, clark, we remember, we know, we remember some of the responses to that. I don't really know who's responsible in this case, because the company wasn't failing at Waterfall. Well, let me walk that back. The developers who were developing weren't failing at Waterfall, I would argue.

Speaker 2: 37:26

The company was challenged because they didn't have good leadership and they didn't have a good idea of what the velocity of a team was. Nor do they have good prioritization of features and functionality. Nor do they have good customer conversations. There were a lot of things failing there and I think Agile would certainly help them find success. But does that mean it's okay to punish a 20-year senior developer who has only known how to do this? This one way can develop fantastically in C programming language, knows everything about the storage layer, just an absolute master of his class, but suddenly you take him out of his comfort zone and put him in this new way of doing things that makes no sense. Almost seems broken to them. Whose fault is that? Like when it fails? Who's responsible? I don't have an answer.

Speaker 1: 38:22

That's a really tough one and I love the examples you're giving because it kind of takes me back to, in some ways, answer that's.

Speaker 1: 38:24

That's a really tough one and I love the examples you're giving because, like, it kind of takes me back to you know, in some ways, like I think it's the employee's responsibility to be adaptable to that change.

Speaker 1: 38:35

But at the same time it's like like imagine you're a 20 year old, you know, 20 year old venue veteran at the company and, yeah, to your point, you've been introvertedly like working as a systems admin or whatever, a database developer, um, for all those 20 years and you've been able to kind of sit in your hole and be introverted and it's fit your lifestyle so so well.

Speaker 1: 38:58

And you've been crushing it every single time you said a waterfall release date 16 months from now. Your stuff is always done when it's supposed to be, like you're doing really really well, you get reviewed really well and now you shift to this way of working that's much more collaborative, you know, much more open to just taking in risk and trying and failing and learning and and fast iterations for feedback and you're asked to work in that environment. That's tough. Even if you get training, you're gonna have doubts because you're like but I was doing my stuff, like why do I have to now go to a daily stand-up where I talk to all these people that I never interact with before and now I gotta play nice on this team?

Speaker 2: 39:35

20 years, you know like that's not an exaggeration clark, and I knew people who worked at this place for 20 years and were the best at what they did and they struggled. Many of them probably don't work. They're retired now but they didn't make it. They got riffed yeah over time because their behavior didn't change right.

Speaker 1: 39:55

That's what they were used to and it's like they were kind of being forced into something that they they didn't know, and adapting was hard. Some people did adapt. I'll say that there were some people there forever that adapted. They did really well and they were great leaders. But a lot of the people to bruce's point didn't make it. You know, they end up getting riff because they didn't want to. They don't want to conform to everything else, because it won in some cases. What's crazy was it wasn't working right and they were. They were the only thing holding the ship open, but because they didn't attend stand-ups, they didn't conform to, to the process. They kind of got a black flag on their back and they got exiled.

Speaker 2: 40:29

Crazy. And I think the bigger question here and I love that this is where we land at this point in the pod is, when a company changes direction, what is the responsibility to the employee that cannot change with the company? Yeah, cause I don't think anyone's really thought about that. Um, interesting, you know. Side note, I have a friend who was looking to join me at my company. We we put her through an interview process but she was telling me that at her current job or her job at the time, uh, she's since moved on to another company.

Speaker 2: 41:05

At the job at the time she said we started off as a company that was doing, yeah, it was like vr for um, just kind of like typical general use, and suddenly the ceo like completely changed his mind and wanted to start doing. The CEO like completely changed his mind and wanted to start doing architecture, specifically like house architecture in VR, which was like no one had the expertise in that, no one had the ability to go and put that together, and like that's why she started looking for other jobs, like, oh, this is firstly, this seems like a bad idea. Right, we had our core audience, we had our direction, we had our plan. Like this is a huge pivot off of what we were doing, and you know that's a startup at startups, that it's startups. You have to be agile. Yeah, you know what you're signing up for, accepting wild changes. But can you imagine if you were at a company that decided, all right, we're retiring our old product, we're starting a new one? You're familiar with, you know all this technology you have when it comes to storage and C++ and everything you know about that. But throw that all away. We're using Python, nodejs and we're looking at, you know, completely just retooling everything to sell to a new, modern buyer that doesn't like this old stuff anymore.

Speaker 2: 42:25

Like, what's the responsibility to the employee? You had the expertise that they've gained, the knowledge they have, like I, I truly believe it would be in the company's best interest to help them find a job elsewhere, because, I agree, riffing them is just going to cost you money, right, like you have to pay them out an exit package severance If the company said, hey, you know, we don't think you're going to make it here, or you have a choice you can adapt or we can put you in like a rehousing program kind of thing, where we say, yeah, you're, you're not going to work with direction 3.0 for company. But we will help you. You know we have a lot of partners and alliances out there who are always looking for good talent and we think you'd be a great fit with them. Let us get you into an interview and potentially move you to a different company, like, I think that's the solution, but I don't think any company would ever have the guts to do it. You know Right.

Speaker 1: 43:23

Yeah to me and yeah I agree, this is a great place to kind of end on the situation. To me, this one's 50-50. I think it's the employer's responsibility to do the good thing that they did for us in that case, which was like put the teams through training, explain the shift as to why? Because companies are going to have to change. That's the nature of it is. Businesses change, technology changes, things change in the world. That may mean your business, if it wants to stay afloat, has to change. So change is inevitable.

Speaker 1: 43:51

So I think the employer has to make sure that they're changing with the times and then setting up if they're going to change whole entire company processes, setting up the right training and resources and allowing the time for that transition and ensuring that, to your point, people that don't want to go along with the transition either have another role in the company where they can do what they want to do, because maybe they're really good at it and there are specialized roles, maybe there's an opportunity or giving them the opportunity to leave if they don't want to and helping them do that, giving them the resources, and I think it's 50% on the employee, because the employee should be amenable to that change and be willing to kind of see the reasons why and understand it and then from there, you know, make their decision on do I stay or do I go. And if I'm going to stay, that means I need to follow the rules and, you know, conform to this new system and try my best. And if I'm not willing to do that, then I should leave. Yep.

Speaker 2: 44:47

And I think the company needs to be respectful of that. If they decide to stay and they are going to basically suffer through this change on their end they need to be given the 30, 60, 90 all over again. It's basically a new job, they're a new hire and they need to be treated as such. You cannot expect a 20-year vet to just suddenly be, oh yeah, agile. Oh yeah, new development pipeline, new content. Yeah, totally, I can do this my eyes closed, like no. We get familiarized, we become comfortable. So I think it is on both sides to be willing to change and then to be willing to accept that change doesn't happen overnight.

Speaker 1: 45:22

Yeah, 100% agree. Yeah, and I think the manager's got to be aware of that too. It's like they got to hear out the concerns and if you're an employee, I think you have a responsibility to tell your manager. Okay, I'm really trying this agile thing. I'm just not as productive as I was before, and so not saying that you can't do it, but just saying, like, the value that I bring is gone down.

Speaker 1: 45:40

And I'm struggling with that and I don't know, you know, is this going to be the right place for me to continue? Because I don't know that I'm going to be as productive as I was before, as helpful as I was before. And I think you shouldn't bring that to your manager, and a good manager wouldn't shun you away. They'd be like, okay, well, let's figure out, like, how we help you improve or how we find a different role or way of working. That's going to work the Kool-Aid and you know, get on that bus. But I think it's good you have that conversation and fair to the employee and the employer that you try to do something about it if there is an option.

Speaker 2: 46:13

Completely agree. Do you have any other examples?

Speaker 1: 46:18

Those were the top ones that came to mind. There's probably plenty more, do you have?

Speaker 2: 46:22

any other ones, yeah, so in this one I'll kind of clomp them all together. Paid benefits, so not. Marital leave, paternity leave, maternity leave, 401k, matching program, life insurance Are these required? Are they mandatory or are they nice to have? Whose responsibility is it to have a baby at the end of the day, clark?

Speaker 1: 47:01

that's a tough one, I mean. The right answer is it's on like it's the parents. The company shouldn't have any business, damn straight. Yeah, the company shouldn't have any business meddling in personal affairs. I'm like what I do with my life and if I choose to have a kid or not, like the company should.

Speaker 1: 47:17

if you're, if you're at a company, that's like you can't have this kid because we got a big launch next, next summer. It's like leave, they don't care about you as a person and they just want whatever you're providing as a skill to them. So that is an absolute plan exit situation. But it's interesting because to me, I think the decision maybe to look at is like if I'm going to join a company and I know they don't offer those things, then it's on me, the employee I made a decision to accept a position knowing that you don't offer those things then it's on me, the employee I made a decision to accept a position knowing that you didn't offer me insurance. I like that answer.

Speaker 2: 47:54

I really like that answer. I feel like you were going in the other direction. I mean, you kind of just convinced me. I was going to say, in this day and age, in this society, if you work 40 hours a week, full-time, heck, if you work 30 hours a week, god bless you. The company needs to give you anything that I would consider what is normal at a full-time company Health insurance, life insurance insurance, paternity, maternity leave, at least three weeks of vacation time. I mean, honestly, it should be two months. Let's be real like europe gets two months, why is america go far behind in the vacation department?

Speaker 2: 48:42

These things, while they seem like they cost the company money, actually increase retention, increase employee happiness. And when employees are happy and they want to stay at your company, they're going to work harder because they want to keep their jobs. So while, yes, if you looked into the benefits package and didn't see something and started and you're like dang, I would have really liked 401k matching, you know that would have been nice I would say the company should just do it. They don't realize how a little bit of extra ched can go. So so far with employee happiness and retention. But then again it's all about profits and nickel and diming and all they see is the next quarter. And if we cut the 401k matching, that means we look a little bit more profitable, which means line go up on stock market, which makes dopamine addicted market freaks happy. And who cares if you're having a baby? I got a market to look after. You know, like Right, that's the status.

Speaker 1: 49:45

Yeah, I think if you're, if you're at like a small business, I get it. I mean, it's expensive yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:51

I know some people work in small businesses and like for them to do that would basically mean bankrupting their company at the size they are right now. Right, like it's. Sometimes it's just not not affordable. Granted, is that a business model problem of like you're probably not not charging enough or maybe you're not generating enough demand for whatever you're supplying. It's kind of existential questions for that business. But I think if you're joining a megacorp and they're not offering those, also like what the heck man? Like what day and age are we living in? That I'm slaving away for this megacorp and they can't offer those benefits to me. They're just like human rights, you know becausep and they can't offer those benefits to me. They're just like human rights, you know, because they can. You know they can afford it. But yet again, I also think if you accepted the role it's on you, like if health insurance and all that stuff is important to you, you need to make sure you find a job that offers it.

Speaker 2: 50:38

Yeah, agree, I think that's the thing is. It is very much a problem with growth, right? If you, if you're joining a startup as employee number seven, you got to, you got to accept the fact that there are just things you're not going to get. But the promise is you're coming on early, you probably have a lot of equity in the company. You're gambling basically saying I'm going to get more long-term by staying here and putting in the effort, maybe through stock or payout or whatever, than had I gone to megacorp where I know I would get the 401k matching and the additional life insurance policies and you know, etc. Etc. So there is what you know size in that equation. Size, safety and comfort, right, like those are the things you're gambling on. It's probably its own pack type metric to look for, but I would say, with growth over time, every company needs to be thinking about employee retention and benefits for them instead of cutting back, adding more, because I truly believe long-term it will hurt them more than it will help them.

Speaker 1: 51:44

Yep, All those things are super important in life. I mean, obviously, insurance, you know, making sure that you don't have to pay crazy bills on medical or life insurance. You know, if you do pass away, setting your family up for success. You know, 401k match, setting up for retirement so you can have a retirement in the future and be able to live and survive, Like all those things are so important and to your point. People need those things. Those are essentials. So if you want to be a thriving company and you're growing, you should be looking at it like one of the first things you start to instill in the company and that's going to help bring new talent in too. Because if you don't offer that, a lot of people are gonna be like that's a non-negotiable for me. I, I need insurance for my family. Completely agree. Love it Done it.

Speaker 2: 52:28

I don't know anything else we did it Nice job.

Speaker 1: 52:33

It was actually really fun. I got super passionate, like I didn't know it was going to go that direction, and that's why I love this show.

Speaker 2: 52:39

My favorite episodes are the ones that make me uncomfortable, and there were moments in this one where I was like dang, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 52:46

Anytime I don't know something, it's always good. I love it, I love it.

Speaker 2: 52:50

Good therapy, clark, hey, but you know what it's time for? Oh, I know, and I'm not ready. You already know it's the game show in a podcast. It's. What Do you Meme? If you want to play is go into your show notes, click the link tree for the corporate strategy link tree. All things in there, including how to donate to the show if you'd like to keep us ad free. More importantly than that right now, though, is getting in our discord, the corporate fam, where we have a channel called what do you mean? Every week, someone will post a meme that summarizes something or is tangentially related to something from last week's episode, and this week's meme comes from ChiMonster Clark, the game. The rules, as you know, are you must describe this with your mouth parts. So what am I looking at here?

Speaker 1: 53:38

Oh, this is a good one. You'll know this in a second. So there's some words.

Speaker 2: 53:46

That was not enough noise. So there's some words that was not enough noise. I need way more noise, I know.

Speaker 1: 53:50

I'm going to try to do it better. I've got to muster up the strength. I'm going to read it out first and then I'm going to make the noise yeah, and then I think you're going to try and do a lot better. There's a top image, there's a bottom image and the top says my internet when being assigned a task, and it's the old dial up noise that you can hear. I'm dying. I'm dying just imagining what this sounds like. And then the bottom is like a whole entire, you know network setup. You got your routers, you got your modems. You got everything all hooked up to the wall. You got this uh, the cable setup, your modems. You got everything all hooked up to the wall. You got this uh, the cable setup. The cable management is ridiculous. And it says my internet. When gaming isn't this the truth? It's like I get something to work and I'm just like, oh man, this is really slow. You know I'd probably do this in an hour, but I'm gonna take the whole day to do it.

Speaker 2: 54:40

But when you're like gaming or doing something at home, it's like, yeah, I can stream like three shows at the same time and somehow comprehend what's happening on all three you know, for me I would say my company's lucky because because I have the fiber and both my wife and I are big gamers and she streams, does youtube stuff, my company gets the best bruce internet all the time, because I don't really have a choice in the matter, it's all hooked into my setup, but I could see this absolutely being a problem if you're not me.

Speaker 1: 55:13

And you know what's really annoying too, Because it's so true. I literally made a comment right after Kai Monster posted this. I was like I just use. I use Teams. I'll be watching my wife be streaming something.

Speaker 1: 55:26

Well, yeah, I know it's probably the Microsoft issue, but yeah, we'll literally be streaming in three different rooms. I'll have my computer up running something uploading or downloading or whatever it is, and everything's working flawlessly, top speeds, everything we expect. And then I'll hop on Teams and I'll go to share a file, like a five megabyte little image, and somehow it just struggles. It struggles to even upload it. It's like how is this possible? How I don't get it, I do.

Speaker 2: 55:58

I do get it, clark, it's Teams. That was your mistake right there.

Speaker 1: 56:01

Microsoft CSU you did forget. Yes.

Speaker 2: 56:05

No, I don't think there's any redemption to that entire platform. I do want to point out that you did forget an important part of that sound. You had the. That's part of it, but there was also the.

Speaker 1: 56:26

I think you need to go higher pitch.

Speaker 2: 56:32

Oh, this is great radio how old were you the first time you did dial up? Do you remember? Oh?

Speaker 1: 56:39

man, I don't even know. I honestly don't even know.

Speaker 2: 56:43

We had it when I was very young America Online.

Speaker 1: 56:47

This will date myself a little bit the fact that you said American Online date yourself. It's AOL and I doubt anybody remembers that it's American Online.

Speaker 2: 56:56

We had the, because we had a compact all-in-one PC color monitor with Windows 3.1 on it and I used to play all the crap out of educational games on this thing carmen, san diego, etc. And I remember like my father got the aol america online trial disc 30 days with like a box of cereal and I love it. I remember like sitting on his lap at the PC, we log in and we end up in like this what was the time? Like MSN, the Microsoft, what is it? What is it what MSN stands for? Microsoft something network, something network. Yeah, microsoft network. It's literally just Microsoft something network, msn. And we saw the games and like I remember like it was a, it was a cool memory my dad and me playing these little online games with people just anywhere in the world, and just the thought of that. I was like five years old but like I knew I was like this is really cool. We're playing this weird top-down paintball game with randos on anywhere in the planet, like that's the future. You know it's cool, it's cool.

Speaker 1: 58:06

I think for me was at the library, oh, okay because they were automatically connected there yeah, because we had, like, um, the first computer we had was a dell box with, uh, windows 95 and that thing, windows 95 was awesome one, let's go back to that. But man, then they introduced like vista or whatever after it was awful. Do you remember that they were bad? Windows was once they moved away from 95. Whatever came after 95 was so bad and I remember that's when I actually like understood what a computer was and it was horrendous yep, I.

Speaker 2: 58:40

So we skipped 95. Maybe we should. We should find someone older than us, maybe it's for strepo. But like talk about technology as youths and like what changed because we didn't have. We had 3.1 and I loved 3.1. Like 3.1 was really cool.

Speaker 2: 58:59

We skipped 95 and 98 and got me millennium edition, which, if you know what that is, you probably threw up a little bit in your mouth it was it was. Do you remember Vista? Yeah, do you remember how Vista was like? Saved by windows seven? Yep, so millennium edition in me was saved by XP. Hmm, yeah, and let me tell you I didn't know what half of the crap that people complained about with emmy was. All I knew was the windows media player had the most 2000s vibes imaginable, like the, the. The song player literally had like this green dude's head with a monitor in it you could see into and it waveformed your music. Oh my gosh, I'll find a picture and put it in the Discord. That's awesome. As a child of the 90s and the 2000s, there's nothing that defines my taste and upbringing more than Windows Millennium Edition. Just perfect. I'm so glad.

Speaker 1: 1:00:07

Windows 7 saved that, and then Windows 8 came along and just brought it back down to the dumps.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

Remember.

Speaker 1: 1:00:11

Windows 8 launch. You're just like what the heck did? They just do?

Speaker 2: 1:00:15

What's a tablet? I didn't hate Windows 8. I didn't, wow. I think Windows 8 was the first one that supported that, truly supported being able to run your operating system on an ssd with like noticeable gains, because you can do it on seven, but like I forgot about that. Actually, eight had the built-in boost, which was huge for me as a gamer. I loved windows 8 just for the speed of hard disk reads. I loved windows 10. Don't have windows 11. Uh, no, no, my firstly, my gaming pc doesn't support it and I'm not buying frickin new motherboard just to get an operating system. But like it's just like what they did in the past with Vista and me. If you know what you're talking about, like, if you know the the stuff they're like nuking features and functionality and they've created this completely unstable platform that's constantly breaking itself. Like. I don't get it why microsoft has these on off phases with their software. It's truly bizarre. And 10 was perfect. Like it still has issues. I still have to do a factory refresh install every two years.

Speaker 1: 1:01:19

Reinstall your drivers man, I haven't used windows machine since literally windows 10, because I remember windows Windows 8 was. I hated Windows 8 because I think they just tried to lean into the tablet thing and my computer wasn't touched and I'm like this makes zero sense for me. And then the apps didn't really make sense between what was on your normal desktop and what was in the dashboard. I hate it. But then, once it went to 10, I'm like, oh, thank God it's back to what it was. And then at that point I switched to a Mac and have never gone back.

Speaker 2: 1:01:45

I use it for gaming only, and even with that use case I still have to do a factory refresh every two years.

Speaker 1: 1:01:51

Oh yikes, why don't we just come to that Microsoft tangent? Thanks, skymonster, you just set this down a rabbit hole of nostalgia and failed Windows launches.

Speaker 2: 1:02:01

Yeah, I will say the best part about old Windows. The best part about old windows the best part were those login sounds?

Speaker 1: 1:02:10

and the shutdown sounds like that ain't that? Ain't that? Oh yeah, they were good, they were good. Oh, and the backgrounds? We didn't even mention the background the rolling hills, the blue skies oh, ooh, that hits.

Speaker 2: 1:02:26

Yes, it does, yes, it does. The startup sound for Windows XP. Fun fact Created by Brian Eno. Huh, World-renowned ambient electronic artist. Oh, very cool, if you ever need to sleep, this is like the worst endorsement for his music. But he's got these albums that are like, truly made for to help you sleep. They're beautiful, they're amazing, it's music for airports. He's a talented musician but like the XP startup sound, which is just a masterclass in sound.

Speaker 1: 1:02:58

Brian Eno. That felt like the biggest insult to poor Brian Eno ever. If you ever just really want to go to sleep turn on some of his music.

Speaker 2: 1:03:07

It sounds like an insult, but he would take it as such a compliment, because that's the point it's supposed to be like this space ethereal ambient.

Speaker 1: 1:03:12

It's so good I like that, that's awesome you know what else I love.

Speaker 2: 1:03:17

what's that? Our listeners? Thank you always for tuning in, listening to the podcast, joining us in the. If you're not doing those things, one, how are you here? But to get in here, we have the best community on planet earth and they're all in the corporate fam. Again, you can get there by going to the show notes, click on the link tree and joining our discord. We get new members every week. You could be one of them and the thing is is we're not judgy. If you join and say nothing, that's fine. You can lurk. We have quite a few lurkers and we love our lurkers. We do. We love our listeners and we love our active participants all the same. So please get in there. Join the conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:03:54

Let's do. We'd love to have you. We also. You know we got a link tree. You didn't even say it, this is your thing. To the description of this podcast you'll see a little link. It's blue, it's called a hyperlink, just in case you wanted to know. It's going to open up, probably a web view or your browser, whatever it might be, and it's going to have a link of everything you need. You can literally find links to everything. We have Different podcast providers, our website and the shop now works on the website Breaking News. So hop on the website, check out what we have. I enabled a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:04:33

I am going to enable the organic baby suit thing because I think it's hilarious and if someone buys it you'll be my hero. If you do buy the organic baby ones that we are going to want picks, absolutely discord. You can't get them started on corporate. Young enough you know they need to be prepared for the hellscape they're going to grow up into.

Speaker 1: 1:04:49

Get them strategized while they're young. Just play Bruce and Clark over their baby monitors. Make sure they got that. Make sure they're wearing their onesie. They'll be successful in the corporate world If.

Speaker 2: 1:04:58

I had this podcast as a child. I would never grow up because I'd be scared.

Speaker 1: 1:05:03

I'd be crazy. I would never join the corporate world. I'll tell you that much.

Speaker 2: 1:05:07

Yeah, yeah, I would all fears unlocked Screw. Uh, freddy Krueger, I'm afraid of corporations. That's the true nightmare on Elm Street. Thanks, as always, for listening. Leave us a review If you like what you hear. Share us with your friends. That's equally important. And, as always, be all hat. No, be all cowboy, not just hat. I'm Bruce and I'm Clark and you're on mute. We'll see you next week.