Speaker 1: 0:00

All right and all right, go, go you. Good, you want to do this thing.

Speaker 2: 0:10

No, let's start over, let's roll back the tape. Okay, all right, you tell me, I tell you. Yeah, you let me know when you're ready. Oh, okay, okay, okay, I thought you were going to.

Speaker 1: 0:25

Wait, hold on, let's roll, let's.

Speaker 2: 0:26

Let's roll back, let's roll by the tape, just roll back. Can you roll back the tape just a little bit?

Speaker 1: 0:32

let's start from the beginning. Okay, imagine if we actually edited this stuff, rather than just letting it rip every single time without any edits. I can't, I can't. I think that's what no one understands. There's no pre-production, post-production in this show there's just production there's just production. But the beauty of that is we're working our corporate jobs every day. That's almost like pre-production. We live it, we live it. That is our life. And then we step into this and we let it rip some people do podcasts where they go off and do research.

Speaker 2: 1:10

This is a podcast where we are the research.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Wait, wait, edit that out, Edit that out. Okay, we spend copious hours. Roll it back, roll back the tape. Just roll back the tape. Nobody heard that. No one heard that we spend copious hours prepping for this putting content together and just getting ready for the best podcast of anyone's freaking life. Yes, meaning two minutes before every call. We get together and be like. You know what we're talking about today.

Speaker 2: 1:37

And then we hop on here and do it. That's exactly it. Copious hours, copious Clark, I got bad news.

Speaker 1: 1:45

Oh no.

Speaker 2: 1:46

I rolled back the tape so much it broke. Oh, just snapped, snapped right off the track. That's unfortunate. Do you know what that means? No, it means welcome back to Corporate Strategy, a podcast. That could have been an email. I'm Bruce and I'm Clark and we're rolling tape and it's Fridayiday. It is friday, odin, it's friday, I'm done we are thrilled.

Speaker 1: 2:13

It's funny. Friday podcast it's so funny actually I listened to the last episode that we did on sunday. Now I'm feeling how I'm feeling today and, wow, our vibes are just night and day different.

Speaker 2: 2:24

You can really tell the day we record these. Like, if it's a midweek pod or a Monday pod, we're different people. If it's a Friday pod, it's like we've done drugs. If it's a Sunday pod, it's a little bit all over the place, because we're just so relaxed.

Speaker 1: 2:41

Exactly. I almost think this should be a challenge in the Discord of like guess what day we reported this episode.

Speaker 2: 2:46

I love that idea. That's a good idea.

Speaker 1: 2:49

So they know Okay.

Speaker 2: 2:50

They know the energy now. You know what Friday energy sounds like. You know what Monday energy sounds like. Moving forward. The new game we're going to play with y'all is when do we record this podcast?

Speaker 1: 3:00

Yep, I wish we were consistent on days, but we're not, so no that's what makes it more fun.

Speaker 2: 3:06

Yeah, I was gonna say that makes the game, because truly there is no norm to how we do this. Yeah, it's gonna be fun, I would argue that's why we're so successful, you know so successful that we don't have ads anymore.

Speaker 1: 3:19

We're listener funded. How good does that?

Speaker 2: 3:20

feel you know, and I think it's good that you brought this up at the front of the show because truly we're listener funded for the next year, but you know, when that end of year rolls around, the ads creeping right back in. We actually made enough money to do a couple of months with the ads. So if you want to keep it this way, all you got to do is just buy us a coffee through the buy us a coffee app. You can get to that through the show notes and make a little donation. It literally tiny amounts add up when all of you help contribute and that'll keep the show ad free. We're not profit. We're not seeking profit. We're seeking me, not spending money. That's that's what we're seeing. Yeah, that's really it.

Speaker 1: 3:57

We're just trying not to bankrupt Bruce. If we can do that, life will be good that life will be good.

Speaker 2: 4:06

That's a not a big ask, but, uh, big shout outs to our big funder, just like in pr. You know, we have a, a sizable firm of an individual who's currently bankrolling ad free, so big shout outs.

Speaker 1: 4:14

Thank you to our anonymous donor again for keeping us that way I'm so happy our venture capitalists stepped in and paid the crazy amount of dollars that is required to run this podcast yes, and now we have to please them because, if you know, if they start to hate the show and don't come back, that's funding gone, or? Yeah, this is how corporate evil starts. We have to care about our bottom line now, don't we?

Speaker 2: 4:37

what? What if they? You know we'll keep their identity vague. What if they show up in the discord and say guys, henceforth, as your mega donor, all I want you to talk about is fried chicken. That's it. You can't talk about Corp Strats anymore. If you want the fun to keep coming in, you've got to change. I've become a fried chicken rating podcast. How incredible would that be. If that actually happened, I'd go with it. Honestly, I can learn a thing or three about it.

Speaker 1: 5:08

I guess I am rolling back all these funds, unless you guys talk about fried chicken next episode. I need a dedicated episode?

Speaker 2: 5:16

Oh, that would be incredible. Please do it. The batter, the oil, the temperature, the heat, the crispiness, the aromas you got to get into all of it. I think we could do a pretty compelling episode on fried chicken. I'm just saying, oh, I'm sure we could I've become a little bit of a fried chicken addict. If I'm being quite honest with you, have you yeah?

Speaker 1: 5:33

I've kind of quit fried foods.

Speaker 2: 5:35

Really, I've quit red meat. Oh good for you. I have not, not by choice, I just don't care for the taste anymore. Oh, interesting.

Speaker 1: 5:42

Yeah, it's weird, right, man, I love a steak.

Speaker 2: 5:47

I love a steak. If it's a nice steak, I'll eat it, but if you give me a menu, I'm not going to pick the steak. I just have no taste for it anymore. None.

Speaker 1: 5:56

You know it's kind of funny. I can't remember who posted it in our Discord, but they said why does every single corporate meal, like corporate outing, sales meeting, whatever have to be? A steak has to be steak and I'm okay with it, I'm here for it.

Speaker 2: 6:09

I believe that was.

Speaker 1: 6:10

Dan, I think it was.

Speaker 2: 6:11

Yeah, one of our newest members in the Discord. I love that. Interesting that our newest member comes along same time as mega donations. I don't know what that means. I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying anything. I'm not gonna reveal our donor because I don't want to house them. No, but interesting it's all timing.

Speaker 2: 6:31

Yeah, I'm just saying the timing is just coincidental you know I'm not saying batman is also harley quinn, but I've never seen them in a room together I'm not saying that if our mega donor were to ask us to talk about fried chicken for an episode that we wouldn't do it.

Speaker 1: 6:50

I'm saying we might do it. So maybe put a little plug in. Put a little plug in the bucket. We'll vibe check.

Speaker 2: 6:59

Yeah, I'm doing great. I'm glad the week's over. It's been a long week, it's been a heavy work week. I'm excited because tomorrow tomorrow I'll make sure to post pics we're going to be building that 10-foot statue that my wife won. So let me tell you, buddy, three crates showed up this week on a moving truck and 800 pounds I'm not exaggerating, oh my god 800 pounds of crates. Three crates um. The crates themselves, if you stack them together, are the size of a of an suv.

Speaker 2: 7:31

So our garage has been completely taken over by these crates which house the body parts of this statue. So very excited to build it that's insane.

Speaker 1: 7:40

I mean, listen, I know your house is going to work, but any normal house would be like do I just put this up out back or in front, like what do you do?

Speaker 2: 7:50

It's a very nice statue. Like you can't just put it outside, like this thing is museum quality. It is funny Like finally the 20-foot ceilings of my home pay off. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:08

Did they send like a warning to be like hey, uh, no you won this.

Speaker 2: 8:10

Let's just talk logistics for a second. That is exactly what my wife said. She's like you know, if this was any other house they would be screwed my current house.

Speaker 1: 8:18

They didn't tell us no, there's no way.

Speaker 2: 8:20

Normal homes cannot fit this thing and it's just hilarious to us that they're just like yeah, we're going to ship you this literal museum grade statue in flight cases totaling 800 pounds and, uh, they're just going to jump it off in your driveway and you gotta shove it in your garage and figure it out on your own that's incredible.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Well, that sounds fun someone left a comment on our video. I'm going to just paraphrase it, but it was basically saying like from software, which is the game developer who made the game the Statue is tied to. They're known for incredibly difficult games. Just test your ability to get through and solve the challenges the game's put in front of you. And the person basically said, yeah, they would send you the Statue, but it is, in itself, the most challenging thing on the planet. So I'm so excited and ready. Tomorrow's going to be a lot of fun. How are you doing?

Speaker 1: 9:11

Well, no, actually I've got to ask you another question Are you going to be able to lift this stuff and put it together? Are you going to have to call me and be like Clark, we're going to need some help? I'm just going to say stand by, okay. I'm not saying that you and your wife can't figure this out. I'm just saying, like you're, you've got an insane task 800 pounds, yes, of pieces you have to put together.

Speaker 2: 9:40

Like that means the head has to be like 50 pounds. So I'm thinking a general flight case, because this is a flight case we're talking about here these things like move musical equipment across the country, right, Like the cases themselves. We did a little math earlier. On average they run about 150 pounds each. Okay, Now we have like a medium, a large and extra large case. So I'm thinking the bulk of the 800 pounds is the cases and the statue itself, which is probably a combination of plastic, polystone, ceramic. I don't think that's any more than 200 pounds total, Gotcha.

Speaker 1: 10:13

I was thinking I was doing a quick math in my head. I'm like the head's got to be 50 pounds, the torso's going to be probably the heaviest.

Speaker 2: 10:20

I'm calling it heads 10 pounds. Okay, yeah, heaviest, I'm calling it heads 10 pounds. It's all in pieces. We have to fit it all together. The thing is, there's lots more than just the body. There's a humongous base, there are snakes coming out of his back, there's a 10-foot-tall spear. There's a lot of pieces.

Speaker 1: 10:35

This is insane. You need to record this and time-lapse it or live-stream it or something.

Speaker 2: 10:42

That's the plan. We're going to time lapse. We're going to make a video of it. That's awesome. I'll make sure to share that in the Discord once she puts it up, because it's very cool how this all came to be, but I'm very excited to see it come together.

Speaker 1: 10:55

That's awesome. Sounds like a blast man.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Good You're going to have a good weekend. I think so. How, I think so, how about you?

Speaker 1: 11:02

Doing good. Same had a really busy week at work where I had some fly-in stuff coming. My plan got ruined. My David Allen getting things done.

Speaker 2: 11:13

Didn't happen.

Speaker 1: 11:14

Unfortunately.

Speaker 2: 11:16

That cover still haunts my dreams.

Speaker 1: 11:18

Yeah, I can see it. I can see it clearer than I can see my own mother's face. I can see David Allen Freaking David Allen Doing fun like clearer that I can see my own mother's face. I can see david allen freaking david allen. Oh so, yeah, you know doing fine. I think that the downside to what I've done is I looked ahead to next week and I planned it oh man, that was a mistake that next week is worse than this week.

Speaker 2: 11:40

What I mean? I don't want to. I don't want to give away the intimate details of the monkey wrench and the ointment, but what happened? Can you problem point the point of failure for making this week a nightmare for you?

Speaker 1: 11:56

I can't.

Speaker 2: 11:57

That's sad.

Speaker 1: 11:58

Yes, I'll talk about it for a second, but I think it comes down to and I'm sure every organization has ran into this how do you make sure you're tackling technical debt? And at every company it's just build, build, build new features, speed to market. Sales team sold something, we got to build it and I think there's been a lack of paying attention to the core of our platform and it's starting to get a little rusty, it's starting to get a little beat up and all these new features aren't exactly playing right together. And so now we're in this weird place where it's like we almost are at a point where we're just going to say stop, everyone, stop For two weeks. No one's going to touch anything. We're going to get the core, all these bugs fixed, we're going to get things organized and good to go again, and the challenge is I don't know when it's going to actually come to fruition, of seeing that light of this is going to continue through the rest of the year if we don't do it now. So I think that's part of it.

Speaker 1: 12:57

I think the second part is bad planning.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Yeah, I think the thing that's interesting and you know this, Bruce, and I'm sure our listeners know this when you're building software and you have many, many teams working on a large product, there's never going to be a clean way to slice everything. Like you slice this feature, which also has, you know, touch-ins to that feature, and the SMEs aren't part of the initial project because they're on something else of the initial project, because they're on something else, and now you just have bad planning because the teams who are building something aren't aware that they might break something when they make a decision. And so I think that's a little bit of what happened is we started putting pieces together of this bigger release that we're doing and we're like, okay, this stuff isn't playing well together and I think it just came down to like bad planning, like we didn't get the experts to look at the things that could have called this out earlier because they were busy doing other stuff. And now we're like running into each other and saying, yeah, this, this ain't gonna work.

Speaker 2: 13:53

We're gonna have to redo some work here it's almost like you have a Christmas tree or holiday tree for the non-secular folks. I guess Christmas is also non-secular, I don't know why. I felt like calling them out specifically. I say put the mass in christmas. You know I'm saying um, you have a christmas tree, you just, you keep putting decorations on it. Year over year, you just keep putting more decorations on it. But you've, you've failed to see. The leaves are all bent and drooping and scraping the floor. At what point do you say it's time for a new tree?

Speaker 1: 14:31

Yep, we got to replace the core. Someone's got to touch it. Someone's got to touch it.

Speaker 2: 14:36

Yeah, it's got to go in there and it's hard.

Speaker 1: 14:39

No one wants to talk about it. No one wants to look at the 800 pound gorilla sitting over there getting real old.

Speaker 2: 14:48

In that point where it's like we really should put them down you know the re-architecture, yeah, the architecture.

Speaker 1: 14:50

We should get that baby, baby ape up and up and running. No one wants to do that because it's going to slow down the big feature stuff. But sometimes the question is now the time, should we do it?

Speaker 2: 15:00

the big feature is just another huge honking ornament on an ugly tree like yep, you've tacked on something that could be beautiful on its own, but it just it's amongst a mass of other non-functional things and you've lost. You've lost the intention. You know, like I think that's the issue, is tech debt such a difficult thing to deal with in corporate? Because you just keep tacking on and tacking on and tacking on, and every time you add something you take away from everything else. Mm, hmm, it's such a balancing act and you could probably make billions of dollars if you figured out how to accurately deal with tech debt, especially in software, either with smart re-architectures or nimble additions, without taking away from functionality.

Speaker 1: 15:53

Yeah, the challenge always becomes to re-architecting is not a sexy project. And what do you do with the best people in your organization? You throw them at the new bright, shiny thing, right. But those people know the core. They know the cuts, the scars, the bruises. They know it really well. They know all the tangential pieces that you need, but they're off building a new thing, not focusing on it. So I think organizations often misstep because they say, well, let's just throw this group of associate software engineers at it. And then they realize there ain't no way in hell that they're going to be able to do this task and now we're going to have to take good people away from that project. So it becomes resource contention because it's like do you really want your best people re-architecting rather than building a future? It's a tough balance.

Speaker 2: 16:43

You ever think software was a mistake?

Speaker 1: 16:47

I mean, my whole career is based off of it, so I hope not Mine too, but you know, some days I really think.

Speaker 2: 16:55

Hey question, you know, in these cases when things are falling apart and hair is on fire and it just seems like everything is bad, how should leadership act in this whole scenario?

Speaker 1: 17:09

well, bruce, the leaders control the weather. Do they? They do, and you lead us right into our topic, which is exactly that. Um, I posted this in the pod topics channel last week, last week, and I wanted to talk about this because, I mean, I I'm on a roll too. By the way, I want to say it's like must be four in a row I don't know, I think you're fine but it's flying yeah you're doing.

Speaker 2: 17:33

I don't know what it is.

Speaker 1: 17:34

It's a weird season for me but I put in the pod topics, channelics, channel Leaders Control the Weather what's the right amount of emotion whether it be frustration, excitement, disappointment that you should show in the workplace. And I can tell you in my workplace right now. I can see it. I can see it on the leaders' faces. They look tired, they look upset and frustrated and they just look overwhelmed. I can see it on their faces and they just look overwhelmed. I can see it on their faces.

Speaker 1: 17:57

And I've been known and I said this in the channel too I've been known as a pretty steady leader, like my track reports have often told me. They're like I don't think I've ever seen you like mad or too overly excited. You've just been like steady, like of course, positive, encouraging, but nothing over the top or under the top where other leaders kind of just blow up, be like what are we doing? Like you've got to change everything and you have different styles of leadership.

Speaker 1: 18:19

But I think this statement leaders control the weather is so important and I've been trying to teach managers on my team about that is, if you react a certain way, your team can be impacted pretty heavily. You know, if you come in and you're really mad about something or you show your frustration on a call to the other group, that's going to impact your team and you can be building a culture around you. That is not what you necessarily want if you let too much of that come out. And so I thought it'd be really fun for us to kind of talk through that and just see, like what our thought is around, like what's that right balance and how do we maintain the right balance for our teams and set the right expectations and how do we maintain the right balance for our teams and set the right expectations?

Speaker 2: 19:00

I love this topic because I don't actually know the answer, as has been the case for the last few.

Speaker 1: 19:09

So I'm excited to see where we go on this journey. Yeah, that's going to be fun. Maybe let's start with some situations that maybe we've seen it and how it kind of affected how we felt. I know I've been on plenty of projects or plenty of situations where things just aren't going right.

Speaker 1: 19:28

And I've done it myself where I'm just about to blow up Like what is happening and so like, for example, it could be, hey, something just broke in production or a project is just extremely off base, or you get into a situation where leadership thought you were ready to launch and then you find this thing that just changes everything and now you've got to re-architect the whole solution, like we were talking about before, and it just puts everything off.

Speaker 1: 19:50

Track costs a ton of time and money to fix it and you're going to miss all these launch dates. And leaders can step into the room and tackle that in a number of ways, a number of different styles. You know, I've seen all of it. I've seen people blow up and just start calling out people and like taking charge and telling people what to do and kind of overloading everybody. I've seen people kind of sit back and absorb it all and delegate to the team and kind of let them kind of drive it. And there's pros and cons in both and I don't know if you remember any off the top of your head, bruce, but I'd be curious, like what you've seen and how it's affected you.

Speaker 2: 20:24

When the management or the leaders come in, hammer swinging is the analogy right.

Speaker 2: 20:32

Like this ain't working, we're taking a hammer to it kind of thing. Like we're not going to do things the way we used to. They don't work, we're going this direction and we're doing it this way. That is the quickest way to make me roll the eyes, complete 180 degrees to the back of my skull and update my resume. Because it it's just, it spits in the face of the people who've been doing the work, who've been trying their best. You know, ideally, they've been trying their best and while things might not be working the way that they are, leadership coming in without having all the pieces, having been there the whole time, having lived through what we've gone through, and acting like well, we let you try, but now it's our turn. Like that's just the biggest demotivator out there, because it basically says you and everyone around you is an idiot. I know best, even though I haven't done this job in years or ever. Yep.

Speaker 2: 21:30

I've seen that it's the exact opposite of what the intention is. Yep On the morale front.

Speaker 1: 21:38

Tell me what you think about this and if this ended up happening to you. I've seen where they come in hammer swinging, they make some quick decisions, they force everybody down a path and you can kind of just see no one's going to step in and correct them. They're the highest title in the room. Everyone's just going to be like, okay, a couple people try to speak up, but they basically just get blown over and then it usually doesn't work out. Have you seen it?

Speaker 2: 22:04

work out. I've never seen it work out. At best, what it does is it just kicks the ball down the lane a little bit further. You get closer to execution, but the fundamental problems that existed at the core usually are still there at release or at the end of the project. Whatever it is you're working on, you, you might move faster, but moving faster in the wrong direction is still movement in the wrong direction. Yep, I've never seen it work. Let's roll back the tape. To use an analogy made earlier by you specifically.

Speaker 1: 22:45

I don't know why you did it, but you did, how dare you?

Speaker 2: 22:49

first of all, If you look at what happened to us. We came into a company we talked about this last episode. They went from waterfall to agile. That pivot was gradual and it was presented as look, we've been doing things this very certain way for 20 years. This has been proven to increase velocity, to help better prioritize and understand how things go. It was presented to us over months of span of time, educated to us. We were never just, hey, shut up and go. It was learn about this thing, understand this thing, see how this thing can help ask questions, discuss, share comments, feedback with your friends, like it was never just slap the patch on and roll it out the door. It was very much a gradual effort and I think that worked for the most part, except for, you know, like we talked about last episode, the ones who refused to get with the program. But that was the right way to do it. It was never a you know ready fire aim situation. It was very much a procedure to get there and I think that's the play.

Speaker 2: 24:00

If you do see something wrong, it cannot just be a. It's almost like a parent-child relationship, like a bad parent, where they just shout at the kid, tell them no and the kid doesn't even know what they did wrong. They just know that their parent is yelling at them. Instead, it needs to be a conversation, a correction, an understanding of what happened why did it happen, how to be set a course for correction and, to the topic, the weather on the leader's faces needs to be one of positivity and encouragement, because, even if their bosses are yelling at them and their hair is on fire, if they bring that energy and attitude to the workers, they're going to feel it immediately. But if they come in with open-mindedness, acceptance, understanding, uh, an ability to say like hey, we don't know what's best, but we think this is a great direction to try like and we're willing to hear your feedback on this before we go guns blazing, that's the way to do it. Yeah, get on the same level as your people and understand the problem before just pushing it out.

Speaker 1: 25:01

Mm-hmm, and I think you said something really important there, as I'm kind of thinking through what you're saying at the same time. It's the collaborative part, mm-hmm. I'm in this with you. I'm going to just try to get an understanding of where we are, what the situation is, what you guys have done already, what's working, what's not, and I'm going to help guide the direction here. And that never happens. When they come in, you know, hammer swinging, it's just we're going the other direction.

Speaker 1: 25:30

You do this, you do this, you do this, and then nobody feels like they're empowered at all. It's demoralizing. It literally feels like like what do we do this whole time if you're just going to come in here and change everything? And I've never seen it, like you said, I've never seen it work and I felt extremely frustrated. I can feel I often tell people this I'm like I can feel the gray hair growing when situations like this happen. The side of my head just gets hot and I can just like feel the gray hair coming in because I'm like it's not going to work. But I can't speak up against it because you're at this point you're angry and you know we just got to kind of deal with it, but it's not going to work. And so we're just going to go and waste two weeks doing what you're saying and I guarantee you are in the same spot two weeks from now. And so to your point.

Speaker 1: 26:10

I think the right way to really try to get a baseline of where they're at and sometimes you do have to interject but if you sit with them and like, I think the reaction would be totally different you tell me what you think, but if you had a leader, like everything was going wrong. You're presenting them and they're just kind of sitting there listening, they're asking good questions, and then from there they say, okay, well, let's talk about an action plan, like, have you guys thought about this? And they're like bringing up things that they're not assuming that they weren't done, but it's, you know, trying to add productivity to it. And then saying, well, let's look at it from a different angle, like, what if we just go and do this instead? Then it makes it feel much more like a conversation and not I'm going to disregard everything you said before and everything you guys have done for a year. I'm going to actually be in this with you and we're going to figure out how we get through this.

Speaker 2: 27:02

It is a conversation based on engagement rather than a conversation based on their thoughts and their opinions on what's going on. You know, I've never heard a leader say this, but like I would fall to the floor and kiss their feet If I ever heard someone come in and say things aren't working and let me tell you. And then they just speak what I'm thinking, like this product is garbage, our process is crap, like we've. We've failed you as leaders. Like if they came in and acknowledge and basically took responsibility for the situation, I would say what do you want me to do? Where do you want me to go? Like, let's go. You're the kind of leader I want, because you're speaking what I'm thinking and feeling and I want my leader to basically be in the boat with me. I want them to feel my pain and I want to know that they feel the way that I do, because if they don't, they're not going to lead me. Know that they feel the way that I do, because if they don't, they're not going to lead me.

Speaker 1: 27:58

They're just going to direct me. I want to challenge you on that. Okay, I think, if you did that and this is where I'm going to disagree with you a little bit- Disagree. And maybe maybe we're just seeing it a little differently, but someone spent time on those processes that are saying this is not working or this is crap.

Speaker 2: 28:17

They got to be a little sensitive in these scenarios and I don't know that coming in and even saying stuff like that is setting the right tone. Yeah, you are going to, I do, that's a good point. That approach is going to going to make some enemies crack some eggs, but let's just, let's, let's do some basic math here, and this might this might be a little harsh do you remember?

Speaker 1: 28:44

we used to do math on this podcast? We vowed never to do it again yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:47

So I'm gonna do math. We're gonna do it. We're gonna do a thought experiment. Math sucks. I bet you, the majority of the people, let's. Let's just pretend this is a marketing org, right and the way that we're we're doing marketing. Let's just pretend this is a marketing org, right and the way that we're doing marketing. It's just the worst. All we're doing is sending email. No one opens the email. We're spending all day writing these emails that just get no engagement.

Speaker 2: 29:12

This was someone's idea, but let's be honest here. It sucks. And we've been listening to them. We've been taking this. We've been rolling with it.

Speaker 2: 29:21

People are leaving the company, people are miserable, people hate their jobs. Everyone's just like I. I'm just here to collect a paycheck. Leader comes in and says this email marketing plan, this is garbage, this sucks, I guarantee you.

Speaker 2: 29:32

Everyone who's felt the pain of this immediately just smiled and said oh, finally, thank God, I'm not going to quit tomorrow Like I'm not just going to phone it in.

Speaker 2: 29:41

I want to hear what they have to say. Yes, whoever came up with this plan, who is probably an idiot now feels bad. But maybe they should, you know, maybe they should feel bad. They have cost the company who knows how many dollars, who knows how much time, who knows how many customers they've pushed away because of their crappy email marketing strategy. Like we are a little sensitive on bad work, especially in the states, we pit people. Oh, you're going to be on a performance improvement plan because you suck at your job and we can't just outright fire you. But like chances are in this situation, whoever put this plan in place should not have done that and this humbling they're about to get. They are going to improve the way they work for the rest of their life because they're never going to forget the time they were called out by the leader who said your, your, your work sucks, yep I don't know yeah, it is.

Speaker 2: 30:33

it is hurtful, it's an hr nightmare and you could probably never get away with it, but I'd love to see it happen.

Speaker 1: 30:39

I've seen it with some leaders and I think the challenge is if you can get a competent leader that can do that and then back up what they're saying with action to fix it, to me I'd be okay with it, and I think you and I we don't take things really personally. We're pretty resilient. I think more people are probably a little more sensitive than us around taking that to heart and being really discouraged. The problem is, I think, with a lot of leaders is they don't have all the facts or they're saying that and they can't back it up and then it fails when they try to do something about it, and so then that creates a toxic culture, because then that turns into oh you set the weather, that we should just call people out when I think they're doing bad, there's no repercussions, I can just jump in and be like Bruce, your product marketing stuff sucks Like that creates a really bad culture as well.

Speaker 1: 31:28

So I think, that one is a really slippery slope.

Speaker 2: 31:30

It is a slippery slope. I completely agree with that. I think it's. That's the nuclear option. Right, like yeah, you can only do that once and you need to pull them out afterwards. If they're not, if a month after you pull plan nuke they're not better, you need to leave. Yes, you're not a good leader.

Speaker 1: 31:50

You played your last card. Yeah, if you play that card, you have to assume that if you can't actually fix it, you shouldn't stick around Completely agree.

Speaker 1: 32:02

Or you should be ready to try and save face with those people you had that meeting with, to be like hey, I know I came in and I said all this stuff, I get it now and why we can't turn it around. I'm sorry. And if you had the humility to do that, then I think you'd be okay as a leader. It's like you jumped in, you tried to do something. It didn't work out and then you had the humility to come back and say why you were wrong and how you're going to help them work through it. Then I think it's okay, because you could and I think many of the great leaders out there do. You can have a strong perspective on something and be right and do what you said, and it can happen, but I think it's really rare. So you better make that your last card you play if you're in that scenario. So you better make that your last card you play if you're in that scenario.

Speaker 2: 32:40

I think ownership of mistakes is such a good trait to have. I did it yesterday. I made two mistakes on a single call yesterday. I made a joke about it. I said I'm not going to make a third mistake on this call and everyone laughed and people helped me fix the mistakes because I owned it. I said this is on me. I'm responsible for why this ticket wasn't assigned to the next person to move it along the line. Like I should have done better in the future. I'm going to set a reminder to make sure this doesn't happen. Like it was a real time admission and I did it humbly, I made a little joke of it, I took it on the chin and everyone felt better for it.

Speaker 2: 33:20

Like that's creating a great culture. It creates a culture of accountability and saying it is okay if you mess up.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Yeah, I agree, I've done that, where we hop into a meeting and then someone said something like right up front, while I'm like well, I think that defeats the purpose of this meeting. So I'm sorry I didn't just reach out to you and get that deal though before, and now everyone's here. I'm sorry, I didn't just reach out to you and get that deal before, and now everyone's here. I'm like does everyone just want some time back? I felt bad, so I'm like okay, it was really stupid that I didn't just talk to them first before scheduling this meeting.

Speaker 1: 33:48

So I've totally done that in a ton of scenarios and I think, that does create a really good culture, because it shows it's okay to be wrong. We are going to be respectful of people's time, yes, and their opinions on things, and we're going to also respect that other people could be right other than us, and we don't need to keep talking about something if it actually doesn't need to be talked about. So I love that.

Speaker 2: 34:08

That's great also it also creates a, not just the culture, like you said, but like for me it's like ah, I know why I made this mistake. Now, like seeing it in real, real time, admitting it, owning it, as opposed to me, like blaming someone else or burying it or saying, oh, I didn't see this, oh, yeah, I totally missed this. Like by saying, no, I absolutely fumbled the delivery on this. Here's why, like it helps you be better. It shows other people what they need to do to be better. Like that. That kind of to use the term weather, I think raises all ships together and I would love to see more leaders take that on.

Speaker 2: 34:53

There is nothing that disgusts me more than when you hear the we're doing layoffs and we're so sorry, you know this, this isn't easy for us, this isn't easy for anyone, but it's like yeah, but you're not getting laid off, so it's certainly less difficult for you than it is for the person who no longer has their job. Right, like. What I would love to see is like a leader get up there and say you know what. We're doing layoffs, I'm going first and that was you know's, that's the way this is going to go, because if we're going to have to cut and I'm the one who's responsible for you all and we didn't hit the number, and I'm your executive leader then I must go first and I'm others are going to leave with me, but I want you to know that I truly am sorry and to show that I'm I'm leaving like I'm being part of this exit plan, like I'm being part of this exit plan man Could you imagine, could you?

Speaker 2: 35:41

imagine the culture there. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 35:44

Yeah, that person would be a martyr. They would be a martyr, and you know what It'd be absolutely insane.

Speaker 2: 35:50

Instead of the tip, I bet you, instead of the typical morale drop that happens every time a layoff happens, we're like great, they got rid of Jennifer. She was the best. She was the best, she was the best. Why'd they get rid of Jennifer? You'd be like, well, clearly had reasons for what they did, and the fact that leaders stepped down or, you know, got laid off as well, like I, feel like this means that we could actually move in the right direction. Now. You know, clearly we had the wrong leadership. Hopefully we have the right one now and this is not going to happen again. It just it's a different. When you have leaders that wear the right weather on their face, it is a different culture that gets created.

Speaker 1: 36:28

100 and I know we're short on time today- yeah, you kind of made me think about, like, maybe a future episode is about creating, like, a safe workplace. Yes, because I think what everything you're saying creates a safe workplace where, like, it's OK to be wrong. I don't need to worry about someone lashing out at me for saying something wrong or, you know, scheduling a meeting I wasn't supposed to, or missing a deadline, like, of course we should try our best to meet them, but I'm not going to get lashed out at. And it creates a safe workplace, wanted to add.

Speaker 1: 37:03

His individual contributor made a really good point on. You should give your direct reports heads up. Clear and timely notice was the words used, that the temperature is changing. So if things are getting hotter, you can prep them to be like, hey guys, we're about to go in this meeting and our message isn't great. Just know things could blow up here, but I've got your back and essentially you know if we jumped in this meeting and we knew that they would explode if X was incorrect, that's fine, but let's make sure we followed up with what we're doing about it. So a leader kind of setting that tone of saying like this isn't going to be fun and I'm warning you guys so you're not surprised, but this is how we're going to combat it, and this is how we're going to combat it, and this is how we're going to come out the other side, okay.

Speaker 2: 37:42

Well, the the opposite of that and I know you got to run here is basically you're a liar, right, and suddenly everyone thinks you're a liar because they know you know so you don't know, or you don't know, or it's like you're a bad leader because you don't know like exactly your team's like oh shoot man like you didn't warn us about this.

Speaker 2: 37:57

why didn't you know about this? Like you have to be open about the vibe at your business. Like you don't need to share every secret, especially when it's about individuals, but the vibes must be shared at all times. Right, absolutely. I love it. We have a really great what Do you Meme that I want you to do, specifically because it is your turn, but we're going to save it for next week. I feel like maybe we do a part two on creating a safe workplace let's do it.

Speaker 2: 38:27

Part two creating safe workplace. Coming to a podcast near you the week after this one I love it all right.

Speaker 2: 38:35

Well, if you want to get involved with our safe space and it is a very, very safe space for corporate slaves like you and me join the discord. To do that, all you got to get involved with our safe space, and it is a very, very safe space for corporate slaves like you and me join the discord. To do that, all you got to do is go into our show notes, click the link tree. Everything's in one place. You can donate, you can check out our store, you can join the discord and hang out with the fam. It is a great place to be.

Speaker 1: 38:55

I promise you good conversations, good people, great vibes I agree also no one bought the onesies, so I'm a little disappointed, to be honest.

Speaker 2: 39:05

We don't even know if they looked at the onesie. If you haven't seen the baby onesie inside of our store, which we get no profit off of, do make sure to check that out. I know you've got to run, Clark, so we'll make it short. You've got a hard stop, as they say. So Hard stop, as they say. So, as always, I'm Bruce and I'm Clark and you're on mute. We'll see you next week.