Speaker 1: 0:03

oof, that was quick. I didn't. I didn't know he'd be in there that fast. He just jumped right in, didn't he just? He just jumped right in. That was a little unsettling. He's a quick guy, he's. He's quick he doesn't mess around.

Speaker 2: 0:15

Yeah, he knows he has a job to do. He gets in there, he does it clean, he does it quick, he does it efficient and then he leaves just like that, except when he doesn't and then we gotta bring yeah, and then gr, because evil twin does join, so it's good, the dark beaver.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Yeah, uh, I thought we said bear last time he is a bear, but I'd much rather call him a beaver. I mean, like, does it matter? The key, the cute thing about beavers is they have, like those tails. You know that they whack the wood with. I love that.

Speaker 2: 0:47

I love that you just like to see them thump the wood, is that what?

Speaker 1: 0:53

you're saying yeah, okay, yeah, what a cool freaking creature. They create dams. I, like you know it's wild.

Speaker 2: 1:00

I've seen the cartoon. Did you watch the the cartoon? There's a cartoon. Yeah, what is it called? Ren and Stimpy? No that's.

Speaker 1: 1:08

There was a beaver. There's another thing that's like this Ren was a chihuahua and Stimpy was a cat.

Speaker 2: 1:17

You're thinking of the Angry Beavers. Angry Beavers, angry Beavers they got them tails and they're like man whack my tail.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Those were the best. Those guys you can't out. 90s me, clark. I grew up in the 90s.

Speaker 2: 1:31

I was trying to remember. It was all coming through my head like a whirlwind. I heard CatDog, I heard Ed Edd n Eddy, I heard Ren and Stimpy and then boom, angry Beavers.

Speaker 1: 1:39

Ren and Stimpy was probably my favorite of the bunch, but it also has like the shortest run of quality and the creator is a sex pest. So you know oh good got a lot of things working against it.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Uh, for the good that it that it was yikes, yeah, um, just a disclaimer before we jump in. I am at the end of a sickness, so what are you down with? It I I'm done with it.

Speaker 1: 2:03

It was a rough couple days, you're done with the sickness.

Speaker 2: 2:06

I'm not down with the sickness, wow, but my eyes are watering. I feel like.

Speaker 1: 2:14

I had to sneeze.

Speaker 2: 2:15

Just a disclaimer for everybody I'm dying, I'm just done.

Speaker 1: 2:19

Did you get the sickness in the Land of the Rising Sun?

Speaker 2: 2:22

I think I did. I think just travel, it got me. It got me. Good. I even did my concoction. I did a pretty healthy concoction of airborne zinc multivitamin thing and you know it didn't make a difference when you're traveling for 20 hours sitting in airports and touching just stuff that has all these nasty germs on it.

Speaker 1: 2:42

That's what I've learned, cause I I even on short trips for me, I will go hard on, like the zinc, the vitamin C, the airborne, the emergency on the garlic. Like now, fam, if you're going to get sick, you're going to get sick. I am going to do an experiment next year. We've talked about this before but I'm going to get the flu shot and the Rona shot. Okay, I'm going to see if my sickness goes up or down, but I am gonna pre-game those shots, since those shots also seem to be problematic with me. I'm curious. I'm curious, yeah, because I've been sick.

Speaker 2: 3:11

You'll probably get a little bit of the effect of those right away, but hopefully it's like a quick one day thing and then you should be good something.

Speaker 1: 3:17

And yeah, I'm gonna take the day off. Take the day off, get the shot. Know, let's go over the weekend, you know chill.

Speaker 2: 3:25

Both shots in one day? Back to back Hell, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That is a lot. That actually might be a mistake. I don't know, are you supposed to get those at the same time?

Speaker 1: 3:33

I don't know. I'm going to ask my doctor. I'm going to be like something's got to change about this. Immutability or not immutability immunity?

Speaker 2: 3:41

are you uh protecting cloud storage?

Speaker 1: 3:42

right now, uh, just throw me in a giant fire of tires. Uh, yeah, welcome back to corporate strategy. The podcast. It could have been an email. I'm bruce and I'm clark. Hey, clark, how you doing.

Speaker 2: 3:59

Hey, I gotta sniffle real quick hold on all right, I'm ready, are you okay? So that's how you're doing you're just sniffling yeah I'm dying, my eyes are watering, I'm trying to look at you and look in this light and it's actually kind of hurting me, but I'm gonna struggle. I'm gonna struggle through it, I'm gonna make it, I'm gonna be alive for you and for the people.

Speaker 1: 4:15

Good, good um, we need you alive for the people vibration inquiry.

Speaker 2: 4:20

Yeah, I think. Yeah, tell me about it. Yeah, it was hell this week coming back from a trip.

Speaker 2: 4:28

Being a little jet lagged, yeah, getting sick and then having just so much happening planning for q1 of next year that, oh, it's been hard to keep up. It's been a lot. So this week was a whirlwind and I can tell you this Friday not productive, very brain dead. Just sat in meetings like a little blob in my chair. I got a new chair so I can just lean back and be all comfy, but just a little blob. It's a lazy boy, believe it or not, isn't that?

Speaker 1: 4:57

random, doesn't sound like the kind of work. Posture chair oh, you know, we should not sit, we should not sit, we should not sit are you just? Stand up for a podcast. I can do it for you. Let's go three, two, one go we're going, we're raising ourselves, all right we're raising.

Speaker 2: 5:17

Raise it up, let's go. We're raising ourselves, neither of us have stood yet, but our desk is just elevating. That's untrue. One of us have stood yet, but our desk is just elevating.

Speaker 1: 5:25

That's untrue. One of us has stood. Don't listen to his lies.

Speaker 2: 5:28

Okay, I'm standing now. This is great radio. I'm happy we do this every episode Me too, I think it works.

Speaker 1: 5:34

I think it works. It's a good recurring bit we've got going on here.

Speaker 1: 5:37

My week is actually very similar to yours Sand Sickness Between finishing up everything we do, like all of our managed management, by objectives checking. So, like mbo, gotta get all of those done for q4 and evaluated for q3 plus, you know we're planning something big in the first first quarter of next year. So it it just hit me today how much freaking work I'm gonna have to do basically like in the month of december, and I just I'm overworking in december. Back in the old days I never worked in december. December was just like a give me month, and now it has become one of the hardest months for me to work, just because of the schedule of my company and when they do their their thing.

Speaker 2: 6:25

So sad I'm yeah, that's rough yeah that's one of the worst things about planning through q4 for q1, because you realize, yeah, we got about three weeks of holidays in here, maybe more if you're trying to take time off and you're like oh really, I only have like a month and a half in all of q4 to do all this work and it's the same amount, if not more.

Speaker 1: 6:47

At least in my case, everything relies on me, Like literally everything relies on me. So I have the full month of December, but it just means that I don't get to take off all the time in December I'd like to. So that's the. That's the tragedy of dark Bruce the wise.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Yeah, I am. That's the tragedy of dark bruce the wise. Yeah, I am dependent on everyone else to help me get my stuff done for q4, which is how nice for you, I know, yeah, so basically I'm gonna be herding them cats all through the end of the year just trying to get my work ready for next year.

Speaker 1: 7:15

Yeah it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be great, great. What a great vibration. Inquiry.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Hey, uh, I actually had something for you real quick. What?

Speaker 1: 7:23

is oh, I've heard of you something for you too, so go.

Speaker 2: 7:25

Okay, good, I'm going to go first. What's the difference between an MBO, a KPI and a OKR?

Speaker 1: 7:34

This is a joke, right, like you're setting me up for.

Speaker 2: 7:36

It's actually not, but it sounds like one.

Speaker 1: 7:38

To get to the other side right, Like that's the answer.

Speaker 2: 7:42

I honestly thought like the second.

Speaker 1: 7:43

I said that. What's the difference between an NBL, a KPI and an OKR?

Speaker 2: 7:53

That was too deep, too low.

Speaker 1: 7:57

I honestly don't know the difference. I don't either. I think it's all the same. It's all the exact same thing. My bonus is held hostage by these little things. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:10

They're all one of the whole objectives that are tied to some strategic overarching thing and they're all measured. That's it.

Speaker 1: 8:21

What sucks for me and I'm going to just say this out loud because I don't care if anyone from my company hears this. Put me on blast. I will say this. I've said this to their face. It doesn't matter. What I hate is that I have MBOs and my bonus is also tied to sales as number. And I actually don't mind MBOs. I get them done. I have no issue doing the work. I've never had an issue doing the work, but I do. I uphold my end of the bargain and sales fumbles the ball magnificently and I get punished for it, and I'm like I could literally do violence to you. I could do violence to you. Good thing we're remote. That's all I'll say. If we were in a remote company, I'd probably be fired because I would be in people's freaking faces.

Speaker 2: 9:08

So you'd be like, you'd be like, let me get on there, I'm gonna sell this thing for you. Yeah, like, oh, yeah, that's tough I feel like every company in some way.

Speaker 2: 9:20

No matter which company, whatever field you work in, you're gonna have something that's tied to business performance, whether it be sales or just in general how your company is doing At least your MBOs, like your personal side of it is quantifiable, like you can just point to your things and say I did that thing or I did more than that thing. I deserve my bonus. In a lot of places here and previously where I worked, yeah, it was just arbitrary. It was like hey, you got like a four on this performance review instead of a five because I felt like you didn't get a five and that's it and that determines your bonus. And I'm like, wow, that sucks, because I have no idea how I can improve or get better. At least yours is like I, they're hit the number. I did black and white as well. Yeah right.

Speaker 1: 10:04

I just, I literally have to sign a legally binding document every quarter that says these are my MBOs and my bonus will be withheld if I don't hit them.

Speaker 2: 10:12

It's nice, I like that.

Speaker 1: 10:14

I do too. There's no arguing it.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Yeah, I'd rather have clarity over like uncertainty and having to.

Speaker 1: 10:21

So, yeah, I like that. I've never missed, I've never missed and I'm not going to miss now. But yeah, I hate the business side of it. Like I hate that it should be one or the other, not both. You know, yep, because if I'm tied to the success of the business and everything I do should be towards the success of the business, but if I'm tied to MBOs, then everything I do should be you know, the MBOs ideally should be helping the success of the business and approved up the chain through that. But like doing both, it's basically saying, yeah, I got to monitor you and we're going to withhold other things because you know we don't trust that your MBOs are actually going to help.

Speaker 2: 10:57

But it feels odd to me it insinuates that you may not, especially if the company doesn't do well, then your MBOs didn't really matter.

Speaker 1: 11:09

Right, and it's like I do do well. I do do well, so I know who does it. It's the people who aren't selling it, ain't me. Thank God, I'm not, it ain't me. So yeah, okay, yeah, that's my vibe, you know it's funny. This has really made me appreciate the goal-oriented type of work, because I'd vastly prefer that ecosystem than being tied to something I have no control over.

Speaker 2: 11:37

Yeah, I agree, I like that and I think it's great that if your company can uphold that, more probably you guys, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 11:44

This actually leads me to something that I should have briefed you on before the call, but I didn't. So we're going to do it live. But we do have a new segment on this show that we're not going to do today because we don't actually have anything yet, but I'm announcing it here. Not going to do today because we don't actually have anything yet, but I'm announcing it here. So, clark, you get a live reaction to this. Oh, this idea. Individual contributor messaged me on discord and basically like pitched me this idea and I said this is great, you need to post this in the discord. And you know, I know they're they're very busy and, uh, I didn't want to like pressure them to like, hey, go make this a formal thing and post. I was like was like, you know, I'll, just I will announce it on the show and we can play it by ear and figure it out. But Individual Contributor has created this, essentially this segment of the show called Is it Me or Is it Corporate.

Speaker 1: 12:30

Ah Uh-huh yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:32

I'm loving this, your face tells me everything.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Yeah, so I'm just going to read what they wrote to me. It's a segment where one of our listeners submits to us a submitted problem scenario. We will consider it, talk through it and then state our opinion on if it's the core issue of the submitter or if it's a corporate thing. So this is a call for action. Right Like this segment will not work without listener interaction, so one in order to play this, you need to get on the Discord, and one of the things I haven't figured out yet is, do I add and I need feedback on this I can add a bot to our channel that will take anonymous feedback and message us or post it in the channel, or you could just DM us on Discord. It's one or the other.

Speaker 1: 13:23

Um, I'm leaning more towards the anonymous bot because I'd love to just see a channel called is it me or is it corporate and have the things posted there and then we just kind of go through. But this is something we're going to do, moving forward. Uh, I mean, we can start with just send us, send us your scenario, basically anything that's going on, and the good thing about this, the reason why I think this is a really great idea. An individual contributor kind of talked through all this with me is like there are things that they probably would not want to submit as a topic, even tied to their name, on Discord. But when you anonymize it and say like, hey, here's my scenario, here's my situation, you don't know who I am, you just get to respond to it in real time like that abstracts everything. Yeah so, and I you know, just based on our nonsense, I think our reactions would also be uh interesting.

Speaker 2: 14:11

So what do you think?

Speaker 1: 14:12

clark I love the idea yeah, I think it's I think it's great.

Speaker 2: 14:14

It reminds me of um. If you're a frequent redditor, you have like, am I overreacting? Or the am I the asshole channel, and it's like they post like the details, their side of the story, sometimes like pictures, and everybody gets basically just chimes in and say they're like you're the asshole, you're not the asshole, or you're overreacting, you're not. And it's really funny to kind of read the different perspectives on it and I think it it kind of gives you the perspective of either yeah, reassuring that it's, yeah, it's not you. You know in this case it would be corporate. Or maybe you need to see the other side of it. You know that it could be the other side of the coin if you look at it a little bit differently.

Speaker 2: 14:50

And sometimes you need that balance check in an anonymous way where you're not going to dox yourself to the world. I love the idea. That's awesome. Yeah Well, let's make it happen.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Individual contributor always just on the fricking ball with ideas, topics, segments for the show. Love it, I love, I love our community. So if you want to, if you want to get involved in play, submit topics or what have you get on our discord. The way you do that is by going to either corporate strategy dot biz or, even easier than that, going in your show notes clicking the links button. We have one link in our show notes. Click that thing, get you to our link tree, join our discord and we'll start playing the game. I'll, I'll add a channel after this episode goes live for is it me or is it corporate and we'll written. Well, maybe I'll just add the anonymous bot the anonymous bot seems like fun.

Speaker 1: 15:41

It's called confession bot. So what could possibly go wrong? This is a quote. Bubsy the bobcat.

Speaker 2: 15:46

Yeah, love it. That's awesome. Well, I'm super excited for that and I have a few topics I'd love to submit anonymously.

Speaker 1: 15:54

You're going to do your own topic. That's fair. I'm not going to tell you.

Speaker 2: 15:57

I'm just like, just like, oh, this is so interesting, I can't wait to solve it. You're gonna have like 20 submissions. It's just gonna be me that's true.

Speaker 1: 16:04

We, because it is truly anonymous, if, if we play it, if we play it right. You will not know if I submitted something yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2: 16:13

That's awesome. Speaking of topics, yeah, what do you? What do you got?

Speaker 1: 16:16

because I got nothing I have a hypothetical, so this is kind of like our. Is it good enough? You know what is what is good enough, but this time this is actually a conversation I had with capitalist correspondent alex rostrepo recently and I was like this would be a good time. I want to hear clark's thoughts. I mean, it's kind of unfair, alex and I have this conversation online. He's not here to you know, defend his takes. I'm not going to even present his take. We can always do this again with him, but would you, clark cheddar movements, if seeking job elsewhere, take a lower title If it meant higher pay, or would you continue to search to look for equal title, equal higher pay?

Speaker 2: 17:03

to search to look for equal title, equal higher pay. First of all, I hate when you do this to me. I feel like it's a trick question, it's a test and I'm just not ready for these hypothetical battles on this podcast.

Speaker 1: 17:11

but I'm ready. I like this one.

Speaker 2: 17:13

Okay To me this one all comes down to your workplace happiness rating. Your CAC, what?

Speaker 1: 17:19

do you got? Oh, I like that. Ooh, what's CAC for the newbies out there?

Speaker 2: 17:23

Yeah, let me spout it out at you Culture, autonomy, challenge, compensation those four things we've kind of rated into. If you were to put a number next to them how important they are, you are able to assess your current situation, where you are in life, and determine if you're at the right place or not and what your score might be. We've done some crazy things. We took a two-week period where we scored every hour of our day in each of the CAC scores, and then we saw our percentage happiness, essentially where we were at, and let's just say it was bad, mine was dismal, yours was okay. The second time we did it, mine was dismal, though.

Speaker 1: 18:00

Mine was dismal, though Mine was bad. Yeah, I had like a C+, that's like higher than my college score.

Speaker 2: 18:04

It's true. Yeah, mine was like what a failing. It was like a D-minus.

Speaker 1: 18:08

You were in the solid F territory.

Speaker 2: 18:10

Yeah, it was rough, yeah, you failed, oh man. But going back to your question, you know, for me, just disclosing a little bit about my CAC, I value challenge more than I value compensation, and it's interesting, as you think about title, I don't know that that matters too much to me, like title and compensation, but it's more working on something that, or with people that I think I'm going to learn from and be challenged to work on something that you know, or with people that I think I'm going to learn from and be challenged to work on something interesting. But I would say my perspective is totally different. Like five years ago, it was all about title. It was, hey, if I can get like a VP title, I would take that, even at the same or lower pay, just to be like VP level, because I really wanted to like rise in the corporate ladder and that's what I perceived at the time as how you're successful and how you kind of rise up. It's like if you get that next title, then you can kind of jump to the next level and eventually you'll make it to CEO.

Speaker 2: 19:07

And that wasn't long ago. I mean, that was like four or five years ago where I was like that's kind of my perspective. However, I'd say over time that perspective has changed to be like titles don't really matter that much. People can call themselves whatever they want, you know, principal architect, vice president, over operation, whatever you want to call it and it's really all contextual to where you're at and it's more relevant of like what you've done. So I think in that perspective, title isn't really too interesting to me. Now, if the money is just ridiculous, like I'm thinking through this, like it does depend, there is a number.

Speaker 1: 19:42

Let's say you're going from, let's, let's raise the stakes. It's hypothetical. You're going from VP to manager, but your your pay bump is 50% higher than what you make right now.

Speaker 2: 19:56

I mean that's pretty compelling, Like 50% jump is pretty good.

Speaker 1: 20:02

It's like you're going from you know scrappy startup I'm a VP to now I'm working at Oracle as a fricking manager of you know database operations. But look at that line, yeah, that number.

Speaker 2: 20:15

Your pay is way more. Yeah, yeah. In that case it's like going from startup to enterprise. You know value and you're probably doing a ton of work at the startup. You just go to cushy enterprise, land at a lower level where your responsibility is lower and you can make 50 more than what you're making right now. Less work, less responsibility, more pay. I mean, come on, would you do it For me? It comes down to my CAC.

Speaker 1: 20:49

I don't really care If the CAC is okay, so let's raise the stakes again. I like raising the stakes. Let's roll back the tape and raise the stakes again. Clark, All right, roll back.

Speaker 2: 20:59

The CAC is good.

Speaker 1: 21:00

The CAC is good. The CAC is good. So you're going from VP to manager. Cac is real good. You got a great feeling about this from the interview. This is an opportunity for you to one really enjoy the work you do and get more time back in your life. Pay increase eh, it's like 5%. It's not that much. Now what do you do? So pay is about equal.

Speaker 2: 21:30

Pay is about equal You're getting a little more Tech equal.

Speaker 1: 21:33

You think? It's going to be just as happy as you were. No, you're going to be way happier.

Speaker 2: 21:38

Oh, okay, okay. So tech is going to be way happier, oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 21:39

So CAG is going to be way higher.

Speaker 2: 21:40

Yeah, pay is nominal. You're losing basically your rank.

Speaker 1: 21:45

You're losing two jumps Right, you're going from VP to manager.

Speaker 2: 21:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:49

Could be even more.

Speaker 2: 21:50

Could be even more yeah, senior director, associate vice president, it could be like 10, depending on how you don't know the ladder in this place.

Speaker 1: 21:56

You could be stuck there for 10 years before you even get back, If you even get back to VP. But yeah, you're going to be happy as a clam.

Speaker 2: 22:05

CAC is better, money isn't. Yeah, that is tough, it's all. It's also personal. That's what's hard about it. It's like I know on one hand you're going to make that jump and on a resume it kind of looks a little funky. It does look funky. Actually. I'm really curious on your thoughts, cause we're not that old. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:30

I mean, I am, you're not like is there a I'm an old soul. Is there a point in time that you hit kind of the peak rise you'll get and then the rest of your career is kind of just like a drop off? Yeah, I don't think everybody's career path is up and to the right. I don't think it is.

Speaker 2: 22:51

I think there's a point where you either go up and then you basically stagnate, you go flat, and I think that is like okay on a resume as you're talking to people, you don't really have to explain it. It's like oh yeah, I've been a senior director here for like 20 years. But I think if you go the other way, thinking about the repercussions of that, it's kind of hard to explain of like, hey, I was an SVP, I had an org of 75 people all reporting to me running this giant multimillion dollar operation, and then I took a manager job at Oracle where I have two direct reports and I manage this little tiny thing that makes some money, sometimes every other year.

Speaker 2: 23:28

That's a hard thing. I'm happy as a clam, but you're happy? Yeah, but are you like? Are you sabotaging your career prospects?

Speaker 1: 23:37

by doing that Right, because you get laid off from Oracle, they realize, like man, this job is cush your career prospects. By doing that Right, because you get laid off from Oracle, they realize, like man, this job is cush. We could just fire his entire team and, you know, replace him with, you know, jane from accounting. She could do that job, no problem. Keep her doing her one job and add to do Clark and his team's job right. Mm-hmm, uh-huh, that could absolutely happen.

Speaker 1: 23:59

And then at that and then your resume looks yeah, like, let's say, you've been at oracle 10 years in this manager role. At this point I don't even think you show that you were a vp in your previous job. Like that's tough you. You kind of sacrificed that you're not going back to that right.

Speaker 2: 24:14

You know, like how do you explain that? How do you explain that to someone like you're looking for a new job. You likely wouldn't take something less than a manager. So you're looking for like manager above and like if I was hiring a manager for my team and I saw like SVP fortune 500 company and then like manager for 10 years, and now they're applying for like a manager role, I'd be like you're like over qualified for this. I guess, like I would have to get a lot of explanation as to what your intentions are, because it would be very confusing.

Speaker 1: 24:44

I do feel like it would help you get that conversation, though you could definitely explain your way through the interview. And when I was the SVP, I was single, I was fresh out of school. This was a startup at the time. Now it's a Fortune 500 company, but back then was smaller and you know, now I've got a family, I've got kids. I wanted to spend more time with them and I'd like to continue to do that. I love the work but I do have to take care of you know, my, my child, who you know likes to play fortnight all day. It's a real sickness he's got. I can't, he't live, but he can play Fortnite.

Speaker 2: 25:21

The youth.

Speaker 1: 25:21

The youth. He's got to get those V-Bucks, you know.

Speaker 2: 25:27

Okay, so let me ask you this. Okay, so, that's how you would kind of explain it If you were in an interview. That's how I'd explain it.

Speaker 1: 25:34

If that was my situation.

Speaker 2: 25:36

You went from SVP at a startup. You had a massive org. Why did you take this manager role? And now, like, what are you looking for? Is that how you would explain it? And then, if that is, if you're consistent with that, put yourself on the hiring manager side. For me it'd be hard to understand, like what, what's your motivation? Like how do I know if I hire you you're going to stick around and like be interesting because I don't know. Do you, do you love the big org that you have this massive set of responsibility and people reported to you and all this you know importance. And now this is gonna be like a boring job for you or is this gonna be like a, a job you're gonna stick around, that that I can trust you're gonna be interested in?

Speaker 1: 26:17

you don't see it that way. If I was the hiring manager and I looked Firstly, I interviewed two people this week for my team and I literally looked at their last job and that was it. I don't care about what came before that. I want to know what they're doing in the last couple of years. Like yeah, oh yeah, you worked at NetApp. Good for you. That was years ago.

Speaker 1: 26:37

I don't care, I don't care, especially if it's the same job you're doing right now. If I saw that there was a VP in the past, I'd be like you know what? They have a pretty good reason not to do this or they probably have a reason why they're not there anymore. If they did stay at Oracle 10 years as this manager 10 years is a long time, right, like, they probably like this job. They're probably part of a riff. Uh, you know like I'm making some, some assumptions here, but I'm not going to be hyper critical of that, because I want to know what you're interested in now, not what you're interested 10 years ago fair enough, and 10 years is a big gap.

Speaker 2: 27:10

Let's say something small. Let's say it's like two years at enterprise. You went svp for like two years, or let's say even more, maybe three, four years and then you jump to a manager spot and now you're applying at a new place for another manager spot.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Yeah, I still don't. Really Doesn't matter. No, it doesn't really bother me. It's interesting. I don't even think I'd ask in all honesty like, hey, what happened? I would ask questions that ensure that they are interested in the role and this isn't just, like you know, some oh, I got to get a job, kind of thing. Like I do want to know that they want to work here, they're interested in it, but for me and I know that I'm the exception, not the rule, cause I'm sure like there are people listening to this that are tearing their hair out Like you can't do that, you got to always be up into the right, but like I wouldn't care. I don't look at people that way, you know. Like do you want the job and why can you do the job? Like that's, that's what matters to me. Are we going to work well together? Not, oh, why?

Speaker 2: 28:13

aren't you chasing that golden parachute? Yeah, no, that's that's good context and I think it as a manager, I'll give a pro hiring tip to people and I think you would resonate with this. Yeah, it's more about the story, like, when you ask, you want to make sure that it's a good spot for them as much as they're a good spot for the position, and I think you have to ask those questions. If it's like hey, this is a manager role, meaning you will have to manage people, I probably would ask this individual being like hey, you went from managing this massive team to not really managing, or maybe having one or two direct reports.

Speaker 2: 28:50

This role has 10 direct reports. Is that something like you realize that you didn't like managing big teams and maybe this wouldn't be a good fit for you, or is this actually something you would want to be interested in? So I think, as a hiring manager, you have to disclose a little bit more about the role. When you see certain flags that could either be good or bad, you know towards the role that you're hiring for, because then you can make a decision. You can be like, actually, no, I left being an SVP because I hated managing that many people and there's way too much pressure, and it was not for me, which is why I jumped back into a manager role.

Speaker 1: 29:14

Yeah, but I feel like and it's a good tip. I don't disagree with you at all like it's a great tip, but I feel like if that was the reason they left, they wouldn't have applied for this job, if they thought that it was going to be that nightmare all over again yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Yeah, it's interesting to think about because there's so many different scenarios and, to your point, it all depends on the context, like what role are?

Speaker 2: 29:37

they going from to what role are they going to? And kind of asking, asking questions around that, especially with someone with a lot of experience. It's like talking about like OK, do you have experience doing exactly this, or you did do this before. Then you left the similar job. Is this really something you want to go back to? Because it could just be.

Speaker 2: 29:53

I don't fault anyone for hopping jobs, as long as they can kind of, you know, explain the reasoning behind it to say, hey, I joined this company, I thought I was going to do this role and I thought these were going to be my responsibilities. When I actually got in that, they changed the role and it was just not something that I signed up for. So after six months I left and went to look for another opportunity. Now let me ask you this how do you avoid looking desperate Like SVP down to manager or individual contributor? Is that just because, hey, it's six months, you know hiatus between one role and now you're in the market? Is that a red flag saying like, hey, you're an svp, for five years you had this massive org and now you're applying for a manager role at a company with much less responsibility, and it's been six months?

Speaker 1: 30:46

Yikes, I mean, I see it, I see it from the LinkedIn lunatic post. Right, like this is something that you know they would absolutely be like, oh, you never do this because, but, like man, I don't know, I just don't want to judge people that way. I really don't like I we put so much emphasis on, like the gap year and oh, you have this gap on your resume. What's that about? Did you have a life event or are you just lazy like good lord? Does it matter? Does it really matter? Like, if the person is unhappy in their job and they leave and it takes some time to find the next job they want to do because, like, mentally, it's going to destroy them. To take all the time you need.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Like it doesn't matter to me and I know it matters to corporate, I know it's the reason why we do this podcast, but like, I just hate that. I hate that so much. It's the worst. And I don't want to think like, if you're applying for a role in my organization and you are the freaking CEO and you want to come be a technical writer with me at my job, power to you, I welcome you to join us. Like, please, by all means, come work with me, but like I don't care I really don't, and I'm not worried about it. I assume it's because you didn't like the job and this is a different job, so maybe you'll like this one. You're you applied for it because you think you might be good at it. So I think I'm thinking with logic and reason, and that is something that's just vacantly absent from corporate no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 32:49

Make sure they're qualified, they have the skillset, and of course you can ask some questions from like a culture fit perspective to make sure they're not going to like take the job and then bounce Cause that's a lot of time and energy wasted. But first ask those questions about the job, make sure they're qualified and if they are, then you can ask those questions. But it's not so much of a red flag, it's like okay, you're qualified, you have good reason for why you took this time off, and I've even seen people put on their resume it's like had a baby, took two years off to be with my child. It's like that's awesome, good for you. It's like that's awesome, good for you. You prioritize work-life balance. That's obviously much more important than work in the long run and it shows me that you know how to make those hard decisions and you know how to work through it, which is admirable.

Speaker 1: 33:32

I like it, agree. You never asked me the question back, clark.

Speaker 2: 33:36

Oh, I know, I was waiting because you kept on towing it up to the next level, so I had to keep raising that ante. You never asked me let's go back? Well, let's talk about your CAC.

Speaker 1: 33:45

Tell the people what do you think? Just ask me the question. Hell, no, I'm never giving my title no, you'd have to rip my title out of my cold dead hands.

Speaker 2: 33:53

I'm never giving it up.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Yeah, double the pay Nah, really For lesser Nah Nah.

Speaker 2: 34:01

Why is that You've got?

Speaker 1: 34:01

to explain yourself, because it took me 15 years to get here. And how many promotions was I snubbed on? How many times was I told oh, you'll get this, don't worry. And then, oh sorry, jeff, who's 40 years older than you, yeah, we're really worried. He's going to leave the company, so we're going to give him what we told you you'd get. No, I don't trust these people with an inch, let alone a yard. I will never give up my title.

Speaker 2: 34:27

I didn't know.

Speaker 1: 34:28

I know the value of my title and I know what I can earn with it and if I take that lower opportunity, there's a chance I never get out and someone does the math and figures out that it's wrong and screws me over. I've been screwed over way too many times. Way too many times. I'm going to rip it out of my cold hands.

Speaker 2: 34:45

I'm laughing because there's so many times I remember, when we worked together, where this happened.

Speaker 1: 34:50

Yeah, and it continued to happen after we stopped working together. It didn't matter if I went into sales or marketing. It continues to happen. I don't trust these people at all.

Speaker 2: 35:02

So no, I won't give it up. Wow See, I've had kind of the opposite experience, which is why. I don't care so much and most roles that I've gotten I've been like one of the youngest if not the youngest. And I look old Meanwhile, my age has always been a problem.

Speaker 1: 35:18

Oh, you're too young, you're too young. It's like I'm older than freaking Clark. What are you talking about? Clark's over there. Ceo of executive land. Little Bruce over here just begging hands out. When can I be the director? When can I get the title for the job that I'm doing? Oh, we'll give it to you next time. We just don't have budgeted headcount for that kind of role here. Grew off.

Speaker 2: 35:42

Yeah, no, it was honestly the worst thing because you were doing the jobs and this kind of goes back to culture. I think it's culture. The places you've worked at has just been bad. Yeah, I've been lucky to work for a few companies, after we worked together, where they didn't really care about age. They cared about the value you provided and they never asked like, hey, how old are you? Are you old enough for this, are you an adult? They never asked me that, which I've been really lucky.

Speaker 1: 36:10

I promote that culture at my current company. I treat everyone, regardless of age, the exact same. I treat them like I hate them, and it works great.

Speaker 2: 36:19

I like that tip. That's a pro tip for the people. Just hate everybody and then it's a lot easier because it's equal.

Speaker 1: 36:24

You know it's equal discrimination oh, you're 70, great, I hate you. You're 22, I hate you so much too you're actually the worst.

Speaker 2: 36:34

You're even worse than the 70 year old guy, but you guys are equal.

Speaker 1: 36:36

Difference of worse you're equal in my eyes. How much I hate working with you.

Speaker 2: 36:42

No bonuses for anybody this year just because I hate you. I actually I am shocked to hear you say that, because I thought you'd be the opposite.

Speaker 1: 36:52

It's like I mean, given, you know, my defense of everything we've just talked about for the last 40 minutes, yeah, but no, I would not give my own title up, interesting you know what. I could see why anyone else would and I would fight for them like hell. But I also know they came to me and said hey, bruce, I think I deserve a promotion. I'd be like I do too. Guess what Corporate hates your guts and you're not going to get it.

Speaker 2: 37:13

Sorry, sorry, wait till you're older and then maybe it will happen.

Speaker 1: 37:20

I don't care, wait till I keel over, and then you can maybe get my job Maybe.

Speaker 2: 37:31

If they don't go external and bring in one of their best friends. Yeah, which does happen a lot. Yeah, I know it. I know it does. You know, holy cow. Well, cynical Bruce coming out, huh.

Speaker 1: 37:45

I have a question for you. Yeah, hypothetical to your hypothetical hit me, punch me right in the face.

Speaker 2: 37:51

One of your one of your peons because you're the senpai is crushing it yeah, crushing, they're doing so awesome and you're like, man, I wish I could promote this person. But you go talk to your corporate overlords and they're like, sorry, there's just not a position open for that right now, so we can't promote them, even though they're the best or the bee's knees, it doesn't matter, there's got to be a spot open. Do you leave your current job to make an opening for them?

Speaker 1: 38:23

If I find a job of equal value to the one I have right now?

Speaker 2: 38:26

yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, absolutely I agree, I think I'd be the same, like if I'm the only thing staying in the way of someone who has super high potential and deserves it. Yeah, and I can't be. That would give me looker yeah, yeah, I agree. Like that to me is the biggest sign of like. Culture here is wrong and I can't, as a manager, open up opportunity for my employees, meaning I'm going to lose them in a short amount of time. I need to get out of the way to make room for this person so they can grow and hopefully send a message to my company that they need to find out how to create the right ladders for people to get promoted without having people leave.

Speaker 1: 39:02

I would tell them out how to create the right ladders for people to get promoted without having people leave. I would tell them I'd be like look, you're probably going to get my role now that I'm leaving, but you should not stay here, because if they wouldn't do this before, why do you think they'll do it again?

Speaker 2: 39:10

Yeah, yeah, like use this as a springboard.

Speaker 1: 39:12

Send a message, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:14

Maybe you can springboard yourself with this, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the hardest thing about leaving at our level now is losing the bonus targets, like we talked about all the way at the beginning. My bonus target at lower levels was just a fraction of what it is, yeah, and so losing that would really suck because you're losing the, the title. Yeah, that's the additional piece that I don't think people obviously people who don't have higher level roles they don't know this yet. But your bonus target as you become, like you hit a certain rank, like once you hit the executive ranks, it just balloons of what it is.

Speaker 1: 39:55

It's a multiplier.

Speaker 2: 39:57

Yeah so losing that because your title change would really hurt from a compensation perspective, yep yeah, getting like a tenth of what you got the previous year would really suck.

Speaker 1: 40:10

But if it's promised to you in your regular pay, then that's even better, because now you don't have to deal with the bonus crap. That's true, but I mean to that end dream scenario, right, app. That's true, but I mean to that end dream scenario, right, like in reality. It's likely not going to happen all that often where you find yourself being able to demote and get more, but it does happen I mean that was on the conversation with restrepo and I yeah, yeah, all right, you, even if it's better pack, you get to be the, the board of directors over gaming production.

Speaker 2: 40:42

Like you talked about your passion, you still wouldn't give up your title. Well, I guess board of directors, board of directors, is an upgrade, my friend. Well, let's just say you're going to be a manager, but you kind of do the responsibilities. You just don't get the title.

Speaker 1: 40:56

No, I wouldn't do it, you wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. No, wow, you would do it, I wouldn't do it.

Speaker 2: 40:59

No.

Speaker 1: 40:59

Wow, it's I. Just I have been screwed too many times to trust anyone at their work. Yeah, Fair enough.

Speaker 1: 41:13

And I know, I know exactly what happened. It's like I'd work that job. I'd be so happy. Two years later they'd cut the whole project. They'd be like ah well, you know Jeff up at the top, he wants an extra Lambo every year, so we're just cutting your team. Yeah, you guys are doing great work, but don't worry, we've got this team that's out in South Korea now that's going to do it for a tenth of your cost. Good luck on the job market. Then I'm going to be like. I'm going to be like well, I'm going to go get my director title again and as soon as I put my resume out, they're like nah, sorry, no, there's no roles for you here. I can't even like, I can't even get similar roles to what I have right now if I look. So no, I'm not.

Speaker 2: 41:56

Nah, nah, corporate's jaded you. But everybody listen, because this is this is very real. This is how corporate is Like. I would say 95% of people experience this throughout their career. Not everybody is so lucky just to go up and to the left. You'll hit a point where you'll get screwed over and you'll become cynical.

Speaker 1: 42:12

For every five Clarks, there are 95 Bruce's. Never forget this fact, never.

Speaker 2: 42:18

Never. Well, I wasn't prepared to be depressed today, but thanks for that hey, welcome anytime.

Speaker 1: 42:24

Happy to do it. I'm sick, I'm depressed. It was. It was positive in the first half, not gonna lie. But I.

Speaker 2: 42:32

I was just waiting for you to turn it around, so I could crush your dreams in spirit well, you successfully did that, so kudos to to you.

Speaker 1: 42:39

Hey one more time. If people want to get their dreams crushed, how can they do that?

Speaker 2: 42:44

Don't join the Discord, Just don't. You're not missing out on anything except for depression. Our Discord is not like hey.

Speaker 1: 42:53

I got an idea.

Speaker 2: 42:54

Edit this part out Reverse psychology. We're going to reverse psychology. Him at the end here we're just telling him not to do all these things. Psychology, I'm at the end. Here we're just telling them not to do all these things. I bet you they'll all do it. Okay, all right set up the tape again, just so they don't do that part.

Speaker 1: 43:04

I've rolled back the tape recording.

Speaker 2: 43:05

Go okay, we're recording great so, yeah, how you can get connected with us is just, don't we? Uh, our community is actually not great. You don't want to go into the show notes and click that one link that conveniently puts you right into the discord. It's just a bad idea. You don't want to do it. You're not missing out on any secrets in there. No good stuff.

Speaker 1: 43:23

Participation who needs it wasteland, it's a wasteland. That's the wasteland there's.

Speaker 2: 43:28

Just whatever you're talking all over, but it's useless. They're just corporate drones.

Speaker 1: 43:32

Oh they, everyone in there loves corporate. It's disgusting. They're all just talking about how much they love like their ceo and how their ceo is so smart because they went to Harvard. Oh the worst. Don't join our Discord and, whatever you do, don't buy us a coffee. If you wanted to support the show, don't. It's better that it comes out of our pockets, not yours. In fact, I'm excited for us to go back to having ads in a year Once our funding runs out. I miss the ads in all honesty. I think it was. I think, really class up the show. You know it made us seem more professional because we had sponsors. I don't don't support it, definitely don't leave us a review.

Speaker 2: 44:12

Don't leave us a review. Also, don't share this. I mean, the true way to climb the corporate ladder is to actually keep all the information to yourself and become the whole entire corporate. I don't even know where I was going to go with that. The whole entire corporate deal.

Speaker 1: 44:27

These ideas start your own podcast where you just say the things we say more succinctly. Grow your user base. Do not share this with anybody. Trust me, people don't want to hear this, so don't they don't.

Speaker 2: 44:38

It'll make their life so much worse if they hear this, so please do not share it.

Speaker 1: 44:42

Yeah, garbage podcast, really One star, one star.

Speaker 1: 44:50

Well, I know one of us has a hard stop and it's Clark. It's me. Thank you, as always, listeners, for Sirius Rolling back the tape one more time. Thank you always for listening. Thank you for joining us, Thank you for giving us your ideas. And remember we're going to start that is it me or is it corporate? So send in your scenarios, because we're excited to digest them. Do it. You can only do that in the Discord, which don't join, by the way, but per my last email, I'm Bruce and we love you. I'm Bruce and we love you. I'm Clark and you're on mute. We'll see you next week.