Speaker 1: 0:00

There he is. That was actually what you just said before this started is actually a little scary. Did you say there were no permission limits? Like someone could just start recording this channel at any time.

Speaker 2: 0:12

Yeah, yeah, I was actually thinking what if I left it open and just you know we're recording this episode and people just jump in ad hoc, Real good radio. Who is this?

Speaker 1: 0:22

voice. That would be incredible. If that actually happened, live well we'll wild west it one day that that means everybody just needs to be more active on the discord, because you never know, when you see that recording button you could just be able to join when the when the little volume knob is unlocked, that's when you know it's wild west time.

Speaker 2: 0:43

hey, welcome back to corporate strategy podcast. That could have been an email. I'm Bruce and I'm Clark and we are joined by very special guest, jojo. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 3: 0:55

Thank you for having me. Well thanks for being here.

Speaker 2: 0:59

We're kind of continuing our guest interview series. We've got going bringing in unique voices from the Discord. And I know you, jojo, but the world doesn't, and just knowing what I know about you, I thought you'd be a great person to be braided by questions from Clark and I for the next 30 or so minutes to talk about what you do and how you do it. I also know that you and Clark share a job that I find very. I don't know what's the word. What do you call product managers other than just disappointing? So maybe you can convince me otherwise.

Speaker 3: 1:32

Jojo this is our chance, I'll do my best.

Speaker 1: 1:34

This is our chance to just gang up on them. Product managers against little old Clark. Blue Bruce I can't even get my name right. It's Friday, it is.

Speaker 3: 1:44

Friday Freaky Friday. Today it is.

Speaker 2: 1:47

Absolutely is Well, so let's get into it. Just for the folks that don't know who you are, give us a quick 30-second prime run. Who is Jojo? Who is?

Speaker 3: 1:56

Jojo, I am many things. I started in entrepreneurship. I've been in sales, I've been in operations, I've been in product and I've been in startups. I've been in corporate, also an artist and filmmaker. So I've been doing the entrepreneurship thing for about 11 years now and it's kind of diverged and weaved in and out and in a product as well as film at the moment I I want to start with the startup versus corporate, because I feel like that's that's the thing that sticks out to me the most, given it's.

Speaker 2: 2:41

I've made the opposite transition. What, in your opinion, is better startup or big corp?

Speaker 3: 2:50

I don't think there's an answer to that. I think it depends on, like, the season of life you're in.

Speaker 3: 2:54

So for, me you know, I I dove in at first in college and I was I was entrepreneurial in high school too. But like I like, in eighth grade, for Christmas my parents gave me a Steve Jobs DVD and like a quote just kind of came out about, like you can poke life and like stuff will come out, and I'm like, yeah, you're right, let's do that. So that kind of like just that one interaction kind of shifted everything and we had like future business leaders of America and I to get gas money to go to school. I would go to Costco and like buy candy for like 50 cents and like double it and sell it at lunchtime or during class and I would like take my parents change and put it in the coin star. I remember in like second grade to like get video games. I learned to do percentages easier so I could sell my games at GameStop and get cheaper ones. So I was always like trying to like book the system and figure it out.

Speaker 3: 3:58

So, getting back to your question, it's I've always been very entrepreneurial and I've always loved startups. After about eight years of that being my main focus, I decided to sell my startup because I was severely burnt out and I wasn't checking in with myself, my emotions, and it was very like one track mind. I was either traveling the world or working on my startup and maybe a little bit of fitness, but I put friends, video games, movies, everything was cut that singular focus in mind. So it was really the season I'm in right now is like healing Um so right now. Um so right now. Corporate, it's the job done and thinking about a startup, or at least at the position I was in as founder and wearing a billion different hats.

Speaker 2: 5:00

That seems extremely stressful to me. A question you lived off a Steve Jobs quote, but I think you were truly living the Rick Ross fantasy From childhood. Every day, you were hustling, every day.

Speaker 3: 5:10

Go on. In high school, my best friend would listen to Rick Ross. He was an inspiration for sure.

Speaker 2: 5:18

Okay, I knew it had to be in there somewhere.

Speaker 1: 5:20

You knew that was a connection, forget Steve Jobs.

Speaker 3: 5:25

It's actually Joe.

Speaker 1: 5:25

Joe. He sparked a hilarious memory for me. I had a similar kind of path, as you Like, when I was a kid. I was always trying to sell certain things and you know I'd pick up like pine cones for people to make, like a penny on the pine cone and, you know, get some money. And I remember I took a bunch of change to a coin star once.

Speaker 1: 5:43

I remember I had all these coins and I was pretty young and I put them in the machine and it spit out like one bill and I felt so depressed. I was like, wait, what I just gave you all this, all these coins, these hundreds of coins, and all I got was a bill back. That makes no sense to me. And my parents had to explain money to me like, no, no, no, that's more value. And I'm to explain money to me like, no, no, no, that's more value. And I'm like but it's less stuff. And they're like, yes, but more value. I just I don't know why you said that and brought back that memory for me, but thank you, I appreciated that you're welcome.

Speaker 3: 6:11

I think I had that same experience with like like five or six when they're explaining the difference between, like, a nickel and a dime, and I'm like, yeah but the nickel's bigger, exactly, yeah, it's bigger, it should be worth more.

Speaker 1: 6:22

And they're like no, that's not how it works, that's like embedded in America Like hustle, bigger, old, like shiny and big.

Speaker 2: 6:34

Isn't it great that all children go through a capitalist phase where we realize, like I, have to engage and make this thing work for me, otherwise I will not live, just you know important things in life.

Speaker 3: 6:47

I have an even earlier story based on what you just said, bruce, that kindergarten. So this is like I don't know. Seven months into kindergarten I remember this we had we like earned monopoly dollars to use that in auction and we then would auction off like toys and stuff. So I loved it so much. I went from the class and I'm like teacher, uh, can we do this again tomorrow? That was fun. And she's like no, we, we already heard of everything like this is a one-time thing. I'm like, well, if it's a resource issue, I'll bring my toys and we can auction off my stuff. So I did that and uh, and when the first person bought one of my toys, I'm like, no, that's mine oh, that's incredible.

Speaker 1: 7:38

I love that it was early. I really appreciate you writing this up because I'm like I love that memory came to my head that I haven't thought about in so long. So thank you, thank you for bringing it up.

Speaker 2: 7:47

You almost invented the first NFT in that story. I'm just going to throw that out there.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Actually just by how you handled that situation.

Speaker 1: 7:57

Jojo, I know you're much more intelligent than I because my brain was not thinking light years ahead.

Speaker 1: 8:04

I have so many questions for you and it's hard to even know where to start because you've had an incredible journey and you know you've had so many interesting roles that you've played and different things you've done.

Speaker 1: 8:13

And I guess, to play a little bit off of Bruce's question, yeah, startup to corporate, to your point about a series of life you know, and it sounds like you were a founder at the startup. You weren't a member of the startup and I think in that case, to your point, like it's all kind of on you and you know you make or break, it's all what you do that day. You know you wear all the hats, you got to do all the things. So, coming back, if I heard it right, it kind of sounds like you know in enterprise right now, in your, your role, it's like you have less responsibility and you can just focus on one singular thing rather than worrying about everything. And I think that's something common we hear, or at least we talk about, between startup and, you know, corporate yeah, yeah, I mean I'm, I own one product, um, but it is a website.

Speaker 3: 9:02

I I'm in corporate travel and obviously a website has a bunch of different factors, but it is a singular product, but it's quite vast. But it is something where I don't have to think about how many users are we getting. Do I need to raise money tomorrow? Do I need to sell this? Do I need to hire? At least that functionality is taken off my plate.

Speaker 1: 9:28

That's really great and it's awesome that you said you know a period of healing from that. It's like you just need to take a breath for a minute, you know, do something that you're still providing a lot of value, probably still learning. But yeah, it's really interesting how you put that into it's. There's no right answer between a startup and corporate. It's really just that period of life. I don't know, bruce, if you feel the same way. We've never really talked about that because I haven't experienced both sides, but you have.

Speaker 2: 9:50

Yeah, I, I'm in the opposite, uh, period of healing where it's like I cannot and I mean it's, it's kind of sad because my startup is becoming more corporate. I actually had a conversation with HR last week which is like, wow, we have HR now. Like that's, that's wild. Like you know, we're we're quickly moving out of the startup phase into hundreds of employees, HR organization, just you know, and it it in. In many ways it's cool Cause it's like, yeah, we're growing Awesome, great, Awesome, but other ways it's like man I was, I was employee number four. There used to be a lot of sort of freedom and agility, and that was my period of healing is I can't deal with corporate anymore. I'm starting a podcast with my bestie and I'm going to complain about it for two and a half years. But you know, like I think that my period of healing did work and if this does become a fully corporate gig and I'm here for the whole transition I'm ready for it.

Speaker 1: 10:47

So that period was good for me. That's great. So, jojo, when it comes to your role, one challenge that I could see being a founder, knowing your own path, selling your company which congrats, by the way. I hope that worked out really well for you. Now you're working in a corporate role, underneath managers and bosses and probably people that you're like okay, what you're saying right now, like I don't know if I'm aligned to that or if that makes sense, cause you've kind of done all the hard things about business and being in kind of the middle management layer. You probably looked at a lot of these decisions and be like that makes no sense. So I'm curious on your perspective, like was that that? Was there ever that realization, and how are you handling that?

Speaker 3: 11:26

yeah, I would say that was really hard at the beginning and I think it was a weird like anxiety dump working from someone else because I didn't understand. There's actually a small stint that I didn't disclose actually worked for the government for a little bit, so that that's true. Um, so, the beginning it was like I don't know how to work in this environment because I was self-managing, I could do anything I wanted in terms of, like, decision making. I would say the first four months were extremely difficult and then it's just like a acceptance, surrender type of moment of like. I mean, if'm going to keep staying this position, let's take a holistic view and be like, hey, this isn't end goal, this is my time of healing and learning other skills. And it doesn't hurt the resume and the better paycheck and I thought I could get not working for myself. So I will say that it is motivating. There's a certain amount of detachment that I've been able to make that doesn't affect me now that I'm almost two years into the role.

Speaker 2: 12:36

Yeah, I was going to ask, like is the ability just to kind of close the laptop lid and walk away and know that these problems are shared amongst your peers and other corporate slices of the business versus it's your problem, you own the company like that has to be relieving in some way, shape or form with a little bit of hesitancy, because I think there's still healing to be done and remnants from the startup of.

Speaker 3: 13:06

I wish I didn't check my email as much, like it used to be a form of survival of. Like this client doesn't give me this paycheck, I won't be able to pay my mortgage. So it's. I still need to break some unhealthy habits. And just the nature of me, I'm always going to be working on something. So if I'm closing the laptop, I still need to be checking my email. Or I'm working on my next film, or I'm doing a billion other things. I have no problem filling my time.

Speaker 2: 13:38

So we have to talk about the film side, because that, I think, is just the coolest ever as someone who, as a child, I wanted to be a filmmaker and as an adult, I am not.

Speaker 3: 13:49

So how does one even start to think about that kind of thing, especially when you're doing other jobs? Yeah, so I've been a part of, I founded, three companies and I've been a travel startup in New York City and it was a sales role and I had a lot of daydreaming and I started building worlds in my head and I'm like, let's write an anime, let's see what that's like. And I just kind of threw myself into it. There wasn't a big, big moment, it just kind of manifested. And then I left New York to go to Colorado and it took a little bit of a stop after I did that because I'm like, dang, this is a big learning curve. And then I went to film school. I did that online in New York while I was here during COVID and I sought out mentors and I just like started making films the best I could and was really bad at it and, I think, starting to get better at it.

Speaker 3: 14:50

But yeah, I think it was like daydreaming and I think it goes back to when I was talking about that kindergarten story that I never saw myself as an artist and I always saw myself as like. I only saw art as traditional means and I always saw myself as like I only saw art as traditional means of art, like drawing or painting, and I just didn't do. It didn't make sense to me, so I always had this like pit in my stomach of like I'm not an artist. Then I found art and entrepreneurship, found Andy Warhol in college. Remember him like saying a quote of, since this is the best form of art. I don't know if I still agree with that, but at the time it's like, yeah, I can be an artist and I think that gave me a little bit of push and competence to get into film. And now I am actually retroactively painting and getting into more of the traditional field. So it's kind of a really nice full circle. 25 years later, field.

Speaker 2: 15:42

So it's kind of a really nice full circle. 25 years later, are there any barriers for entry? Filmmakers that you've kind of jumped over and have recommendations for, if they're listening to this, Well, that's a good question.

Speaker 3: 15:52

I think that's an interesting question too, because everyone has an iPhone and anyone in film, and it's almost a saturated market. So I feel like a good filtration system surrounding yourself with like-minded people mentors, studying, watching movies with intention, reading screenplays, I think surrounding yourself like the sun and having planets move around you and those planets be these things that push you forward, kind of like advisors. I think that's what's been really helpful. It's also kind of like marketing channels. Like, unless you go viral with something, you have to hit like all 16 channels and they're all working in unison to like make one project so, or like one marketing campaign. So, yeah, I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all for filmmaking. It's almost like a reverse of your question of like it's almost too saturated and you have to be very mindful of what you surround yourself with I'm just impressed with your energy, you know, being able to do all those things.

Speaker 1: 17:03

It's just, yes, like it's. It's so difficult. I mean I just try to do the simple few things in my life and I'm like exhausted and going to bed at 8 30 happened three times this week and so I'm curious, you know, jojo, balancing that. Um, you know, being a product manager, you're kind of a. You know, being a product manager, you're kind of a founder. You know it's almost to your point of healing. It's when you were doing the founder work. You're just always having to do something and that's where all your energy went and you had to focus on the business. And now that you're able to like close the lid and you can find other things to fill your time, but those things probably give you energy to be better at your day job that you were probably missing before. So I'm curious on your thoughts there. Like is it, are you now just doing and spending more time doing your hobbies, which you love doing, which now give you the energy and you think you're doing better at work, or do you actually think your output might be less?

Speaker 3: 17:58

Uh, that's a good question. I would say my output is the same, so I have adhd, so I'm very motivated by being motivated about things that I like. So I would agree I do more hot of my hobbies and that fulfills me as a human. I think a job is probably the same as it would have already been. I don't know. That's that's a tricky question. I, I do. I do a lot of things and I'm doing more things that fuel me and fuel me, but yeah, I don't know if it.

Speaker 3: 18:38

I don't know if there's a direct correlation back to my day job.

Speaker 1: 18:41

Yeah, I was trying to think like, like for me, I know, I mean I could work. I'm kind of similar to you, as I always find somebody to fill my time and usually it goes into work, and I tend to notice that when I spend 80 hours doing work and I'm banging my head against the wall and I'm exhausted and like, it feels like you're doing a lot because that's a lot of time but it's not as valuable the work isn't anyways, I noticed that when I actually do less work and I spend time doing the activities that I enjoy, like you mentioned, I do fitness too, and that gives me energy. You know I play outside with my pets and stuff like that, and that gives me energy. That's not work related. My output's actually better, um, and I'm working less, which is why I was curious. You know that energy shift for you, but it sounds like you just learned how to master it all and I'm even more impressed.

Speaker 3: 19:31

I wouldn't say I master it all. I would say it's definitely a work in progress, but it's something that like, like I said, when I am captivated by something, like from soft game comes out, I'll be like in it. Or you know, I signed a professional soccer contract earlier this year and that was like my sole focus and I luckily I work remote so I'm like good, I can accommodate that and how am I going to juggle it? So there is a lot of intention there, but maybe to your point, maybe that that is something that I'm doing less at my day job, but maybe it's a little bit more mindful and focused and thought about it.

Speaker 2: 20:17

It's super interesting to me just hearing you say that, both Jojo and Clark, just because now I'm thinking about the way I live my life and how I shut the laptop lid and I go play video games. But it does refresh me in a way to like do not less work, but more focused work in the next day, versus spending more time working than you know, enjoying life and doing the things that I enjoy doing. I think that's a lesson a lot of people need to take away and learn. I'm in front of the keyboard just sending email. Doing the thing does not automatically mean it's time well spent.

Speaker 3: 20:59

I agree, I think it's kind of like focusing and holding the 80-20 year old kind of top of mind.

Speaker 1: 21:10

Great man. Yeah, that's incredible. I mean the fact that you just said you signed a professional soccer contract. I don't even know what to ask you because I'm just like there's so much I want to talk about. This is going to have to be like seven part series of JoJo.

Speaker 3: 21:24

We're going to have to adventure, to each aspect of your life. Bizarre Adventure has a lot of series, so I guess I'm just part of that.

Speaker 2: 21:30

This is the third arc. It's the soccer arc. Love it, dio comes back for this one.

Speaker 3: 21:39

Dio is the ball.

Speaker 1: 21:44

He's also a raptor, don't worry, it's going to make sense. As you think about the workplace, I'm really curious of, like what are things that you've enjoyed working with like a corporate team? Obviously you said you're remote, so you're not working in person, but what are things you really enjoyed of working in corporate versus a startup and what are some things you're like I could do without that?

Speaker 3: 22:06

Yeah, it's hard. I was thinking about this before the podcast that this would probably be brought up and part of CAPC is part of my daily life. I kind of feel like I have golden handcuffs. So I go into the office, especially if it's a large office and there's some bad vibes going on. I'm an empath, so I take that on pretty harshly.

Speaker 3: 22:39

Obviously, you know the argument that a lot of people make like be able to do your laundry or no traffic, like showing up each day and putting on a face, really drains me. So we don't have cameras on at my company. So the fact that I could be outside with my dog in the meeting, being alert but not having to worry about what I look like, especially like being the only girl on my team, like it's hard. I don't want anyone to look at me and I just want to say leave me alone. So I think that I really enjoy the fact that I can work on one thing for stable company for the most part and I don't have to put on a face and I can do my job and even though I'm the only girl on the team, I'm still respected. That is nice. Like pay's great. Autonomy is great.

Speaker 3: 23:35

Autonomy is great but also is a double-sided coin. Sometimes I almost have so much autonomy that it gives me anxiety because they're not giving me any direction at all. I'm like, well, if I'm not working at this moment, they think I'm not working. So I'm still trying to get past that. But the challenge, I think isn't challenge depends. So like, if it's a creative challenge, I'm all about it. It's a corporate challenge not really high on my list, all about it. It's a corporate challenge not really high on my list. So I don't know, I kind of work to live. I don't really live to work. And when I think about film or startups, that was a part of living because it was a form of expression. Versus corporation is not a form of expression.

Speaker 2: 24:26

That's interesting Because when you were going through your cap just now, I was wondering how does this compare to the startup experience you went through? And you just saying it's a form of expression did your startup, your multiple startups that you were involved with, did they almost feel more like hobbies than work?

Speaker 3: 24:46

The first two, yes, one that I sold, no, but it was good enough. So first two were my dreams. And the final one I felt like a genie. So I had a tech agency. So we did marketing, engineering, UX, ui design and strategy. So I worked with over 150 entrepreneurs. I think we launched like 50 or 60 apps and websites. And, yeah, I just kind of felt like a genie, like I was making other people's dreams come true, which is like great. Then it's like that's not my hobby anymore. This feels like a startup that I was doing for me and it was a product that I had raised angel funding. For. The other one, it was very by the bootstraps. Yeah, I don't know, it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 26:03

It is interesting. It's interesting how you're able to kind of quantify and qualify those three different experiences, just sort of based on whether it was hobby genie. I love the use of the word genie too. I think that's a really good way to answer and think about that From a perspective for all the freshers out there. A lot of folks who listen to the pod or in the Discord are in their first few years of work.

Speaker 3: 27:00

What would you tell them, just based on all of your many experiences, unique skills or skills that you want to develop in the next five years, would be the best thing to do? Sales is in and out of every part of your life, whether you're selling yourself to a partner, selling yourself to sell a product at a company or your startup, just to make friends, like it's integral in who you are. And when I say sales, I say it from like an authentic place. First job I was in business was at Best Buy. I honed my sales skills there and picked up a ton of really good experience. That still kind of helps me today. Like worked like name off some of my jobs. I worked at Sonic. I worked at a grocery store or the Best Buy. I worked as a marketing manager at an apartment complex. I have done the startups. I worked in government. I think the diversification is really big in your first couple of years and starting out, whether you're in college, high school or outside or you're starting anew.

Speaker 2: 28:05

I hate this. Oh, go ahead, Clark.

Speaker 1: 28:07

No, I was going to say I feel like. Feel like, jojo, it also helps you figure out, like, what you like doing and what you don't like doing, or what you're good at what you're not good at. Yeah, it's.

Speaker 2: 28:18

It's also just interesting to me that you're you know we joked in the beginning about your your early entrepreneurship, pre-adult era and your point about sales. It's so true and I know I went through this much later in life because I started as an engineer and then went into sales and then I saw sales is everything and now I can't take my sales hat off ever because it is everything I think everyone needs to understand in our very capitalist-oriented society. The closer you are to sales, the more money you make. But also it helps you understand just how businesses work and why decisions get made the way they do, and it can really move you up in the corporate world or in the personal startup world because you understand it's not just the idea that drives business, it's how you sell the idea.

Speaker 3: 29:12

Yes, and and I think that's like what I was referring to like when it comes to authentic selling, I've never sold anything to someone that they didn't want it.

Speaker 3: 29:24

It's about listening to their needs, listening to their body reaction it's. It's really if you can listen and if you can sell something authentically, that will benefit that person. You are just gonna be so much better off and do really well. I don't know if it's a karmic thing, I don't know if it's just doing the right thing, but I do think there's a really good place where sales fits in. But it does get a very bad stigma.

Speaker 2: 29:54

I will say they're true, the car salesman.

Speaker 1: 29:59

Yeah, no, I was going to ask you, jojo, I'm like, okay, so you did all these things, why product management? But I think you kind of just answered it and feel free to elaborate. But it's like in product management, a really key skill is being able to listen to your customers, your stakeholders, whoever, and not just pushing a solution but trying to think of, like, what's the best way we can solve your problem. And so it sounds like that's something you know, you've naturally, you know been able to do and you know been accustomed to with all your different roles and experience, and that's probably what led you to product management. Don't know if that's accurate, but it sounds like it.

Speaker 3: 30:38

I would say it's not something I would have thought about, but I would agree there's definitely some truth there. I think when I sold my company, I went I just went off to South America for a few months and I'm like, what am I going to do next? Like the exit wasn't huge. It was nice enough to make it all worth it. It's like I still have to get a job in four months. So let's figure that out. So I think it really came down to I was like a product, a certified product owner and scrum master and didn't really know what to do to allow me to heal, get the same amount of compensation that I was getting as a founder. So I think it was like listening to users. I like creating cool things authentically, and I think it really came down to I don't want my lifestyle to change too much while I'm healing.

Speaker 2: 31:38

Love that.

Speaker 1: 31:38

It's a great answer.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Yeah, Well, in the traditional style of any interview. Final question Do you have any questions for us, Jojo?

Speaker 3: 31:48

Oh man, that's the hit. Like am I in a job interview right now? Curious, like when you think about work and you all have family hobbies, you know stuff that you do do you look forward to something bigger, like a dream or something that you're not currently doing? You know, like mine's film, like whether it happens in two years or ten years, that's something we're very focused on and excited, and I would like to have a family one day. I'm curious if either of you hold that same mindset that I have.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Yeah, that's a great question, Bruce, you want to go first or me?

Speaker 2: 32:37

You go first, Clark.

Speaker 1: 32:39

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned Jojo. I think I've hinted at it before, but I think corporate isn't the long-term place for me. Like it's funny, I almost want to do. I want to do the reverse you, I want to go back to your arc one and do a couple of fun like startups, stuff that I'm really passionate about, and we did a little bit of an interview each other series where we did like an episode or two just interviewing ourselves. And one of the things I mentioned is like bridging the intersection of technology and solving a big problem with people I like working with is something I'm really interested in doing. It's not just like trying to play the corporate rat race. So I'm not a huge idea person. I don't know what that idea is, but I know that it will look something like that. You know, working on a hard problem with people I like, probably with technology.

Speaker 2: 33:33

For me. I mean, I do want to be a janitor at Clark's company, so I am hoping I can get through that interview process. But if it doesn't work out, yeah, it's going to be tough. But if it doesn't work out, yeah, it's going to be tough. But if it doesn't work out like we talked about in this, like Clark was saying in that interview episode, I do have an idea for a game that I really want to build and my current goal is to get through this startup experience. Hopefully the company that gets acquired goes public and I get a nice little payout and that would fund me enough to go create this game that I've got just ruminating in my mind. Also, my dog is crying incessantly, so I'm sorry if that's coming through on the mic.

Speaker 3: 34:14

It was only like half a second.

Speaker 2: 34:18

It was very brief Her vision is just getting out of my office. If that ever happens first, I'd be happy to help you with the story or be there for you. That sounds amazing heck yeah, I'm building my team. The avengers are starting to assemble in my mind.

Speaker 3: 34:34

Always need a jojo in that avenger list.

Speaker 1: 34:37

You sure do, jojo, in every aspect of my life. Um, jojo, I have one final question. You and my problem is you already stole my final question, which is around what's your CAC score and your CAC rating. But we've got an even more important question for you. We need to convince Bruce that product managers actually do way more work than whatever he does.

Speaker 3: 34:59

Yeah, I mean, if done right, like product is so consuming because you're always checking everything, everything like all the time, whether that's creating user stories, doing user interviews, looking at social checking in with your team, like I don't know exactly your day-to-day, bruce, but product can be very stressful and overwhelming if you let it.

Speaker 2: 35:31

So you're just telling me that every product manager I've worked with is basically phoning it in is what you're saying? That's all I'm hearing.

Speaker 1: 35:39

Maybe, Maybe I can just preach hey Bruce, guess what? We provide a lot of value and you can get out of here. Okay, I can just preach hey Bruce, guess what? We provide a lot of value and you can get out of here.

Speaker 2: 35:47

Okay.

Speaker 1: 35:48

I'll go home. I'll go home.

Speaker 2: 35:50

Let me turn off my webcam and get out of here.

Speaker 1: 35:52

Oh this is the best. Hey, no product marketers are ever allowed on this podcast. If you don't like product managers, you're not allowed. That's the rule from now on. I'm fine with that rule.

Speaker 2: 36:01

I'm fine with that rule. This is gonna be a marketing free pod moving forward love it. Jojo, thank you so much for joining us and talking us through your story. I feel like we only scratched the surface because every time you talked I was like, oh, she does that too. Yeah, that's right, the soccer thing. You're an amazing person and we're probably going to have you back to get more words of wisdom out of you. But thank you for joining us today and talking through your life with us. It's super interesting and valuable and I think our listeners are going to find it the same thanks first.

Speaker 1: 36:32

Thanks, clark, absolutely yeah, seriously we're going to need arc one, two, three deep dive we might have to have you on every week for the next three years.

Speaker 2: 36:41

We'll see all right, seven will have horses books. Yeah, part seven we'll have horses. Yeah, yeah, they will have horses. Hard to animate, but they'll be there. So I think that. I think that wraps up another episode.

Speaker 2: 36:54

Listen, if y'all want to get in touch with us Jojo Clark, bruce, whoever I am you can do that by going to our discord, and all this conversation that happens here happens in the discord all the time, and we have it with a lot more fine feathered folks. So please join that. You can do that by going into our link tree and clicking the links. You can also donate if you want to keep the show ad free. We're currently running a very long ad free stint because of one very generous kind donor. Uh, just buy us a coffee A few bucks gets a month of ad-free listening for everybody. We're all in this together here, so it's not like you have to do a big dump of money, just a little bit. And you can also use that link to get our newsletter. Get to our website. You can buy a onesie for your baby that has the Corporate Strategy logo on it. There's so much you could do. Is there anything else we're missing, clark.

Speaker 1: 37:46

I think you got it all. Yeah, share with your co-workers you love. Share with your co-workers you hate.

Speaker 2: 37:55

We're all going to make corporate a better place, one podcast at a time. Well, thank you again, jojo, for joining us, thanks, clark, as always, for being my co-host, and thank you, listener, for joining. If you like it, share it with your friends. If you don't, share it with your enemies, be sure to refresh your email, because there's those last ones coming in the end of Friday and you know it's important to respond to those before the weekend hits. But until you do that, I'm Bruce.

Speaker 1: 38:22

And I'm Clark.

Speaker 2: 38:24

And you're on mute. We'll see you next week.