Speaker 2: 0:03

are you ready for that? No, you. You did it way earlier than I was expecting I was not a little. I saw you still a little bit I was still silencing all my notifications to make sure I don't get pinged in the middle of you do that.

Speaker 1: 0:17

I have the. I have the mental fortitude to just ignore them yeah, I don't yeah, actually I enjoy it. I see like I'll see a little toast notification pop up from someone. It's like really important buildings on fire, can you save me? It's like no, no, is this marked on? Your calendar yeah, of course it is. Yeah, is it not on yours? No, what is wrong with you?

Speaker 2: 0:40

no, no it is, it is, it is, it's there. I, I text you. We're actually pretty good at planning, like every week, even sometimes two weeks, like we've gotten well, not planning content, but planning when we're actually going to speak. We're decent Okay.

Speaker 1: 0:56

So I always hit it there about two and a factor of 10 or so minutes.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Yeah, yeah, not bad. Yeah. Sometimes I'm late, I mean, but it's on the calendar, yeah not bad.

Speaker 1: 1:07

Yeah, sometimes I'm late, I mean, but it's on the calendar, okay. How often are you late to meetings? Depends how important is the meeting Percentage-wise. Give me a ballpark.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Not too often. I'm pretty punctual.

Speaker 1: 1:20

Yeah, yeah Percent.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Being late 30%. I'm late for 30% of my meetings, you have to remember. I have a lot of meetings, so do I so, 30% of my meetings being a little late Yesterday, from eight to five, nonstop 30 minute meetings all day.

Speaker 1: 1:45

Oh dude that is the absolute nightmare scenario, that's nightmare fuel for me.

Speaker 2: 1:47

from eight to five nonstop 30 minute meetings all day. Oh dude, that is the absolute nightmare scenario.

Speaker 1: 1:51

That's nightmare fuel for me. Do you know what you want to know? My percentage of lateness to meetings is what percent? It's less than one.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Wow.

Speaker 1: 2:00

There's only like one individual that actually will hold me over. Otherwise, I'm sorry this meeting is going over. I have another meeting to go to If you'll get a. I'm sorry this meeting is going over. I have another meeting to go to. If we need to schedule, I'll follow up. My calendar is available. Done, it's never me. I am never the reason a meeting goes over. So like I hate it. I hate when people are late and I hate being late.

Speaker 2: 2:23

So to clarify, so I don't seem like a scumbag, the reason I'm late to those 30% is usually my team has it and I'm there for like support and if that's the case, like it's actually a little trick that I do, sometimes I do show up late, just so they got it and they don't need me. Sometimes I like to slide in about five minutes late. Not fair. Nobody knows I'm even there.

Speaker 1: 2:46

No, no, disagree, Disagree. This is a bad look.

Speaker 2: 2:51

I don't think so. I mean, frankly, I don't care. I'm like, hey, the team's got it, I'm here to support, I'm going to show up when I want to show up and hopefully you don't need me at all.

Speaker 1: 3:02

You need to reject the invite. Don't go period. You're, you're, you're doing one of the worst of both worlds. Here it's like I'm late to something I shouldn't be at at all.

Speaker 2: 3:14

I don't think I need to be there, then decline. I give the team the wherewithal to say, hey, you don't need me. But sometimes I like to listen in to be like, okay, cool, I like want to see what's going on. But the first five minutes doesn't matter anyways, for the rest of these meetings Like if it's a big, you know what I'm talking about you get anything productive done in the first five minutes of a big meeting with 10 or so people.

Speaker 1: 3:36

Yes, all the time out. It's a if you're saying, if you're wasting the, if you start a meeting bad, the whole meeting is going to be bad, the first five minutes is crucial.

Speaker 2: 3:49

You got to get it right, no, so the rest of it's good, let's let's talk about the first five minutes of every meeting oh my gosh, okay, you show up, yeah we're gonna go through this together. We're gonna do a stark contrast. We're gonna compare bruce versus clark. First, five minutes of meetings larger than 10 people all right, well, actually, okay, you have a lot of those meetings. This is relevant for you, right? Yes, yeah, okay, good, just want to make sure at least two or three a day, yeah, okay so.

Speaker 2: 4:16

So we show up. This is my world, clark's world. You show up. People are trickling in. The host of the meeting says, hey, we're going to get started in just a few minutes. We're just waiting for everyone to join. Two, two and a half minutes, maybe three minutes goes by. They say, okay, great, let's go ahead and get started. Looks like we have a good quorum. Is everyone okay with me recording this meeting? Another minute goes by.

Speaker 2: 4:40

God, I forgot how my corporate is Let me share my screen, and then they start sharing the screen by the time five minutes rolls around is when things actually happen.

Speaker 1: 4:48

My God, you are still in corporate and I guess I still am at a startup. That is the difference. I'll enter a meeting hey, how's it going? Hope everyone has a good day. I usually tell a joke While I'm doing this. I'm bringing up the screen share Yep. If this, I'm bringing up the screen share yep. If we aren't sharing screen in under a minute, this meeting is already a failure and I should have declined. Uh, we get into it quick. It's like all right, let's, let's, let's hit the ground running. Here's where we're at, here's what we need to be. What's going on? You speak and they speak and I listen to them and then we respond to what they say and then it's okay. Next thing go, go, go, let let's get through this. It is personally a crippling defeat If we don't end the meeting early. That means we didn't budget our time well, and usually those aren't the meetings that I run. So just you know that little humble brag, but I like to get through it, get it done.

Speaker 2: 5:42

Anytime.

Speaker 1: 5:42

I schedule a meeting. If you show up late to the meeting, too bad, you're late, I'm going to criticize you for it, and uh, that's that's what's going to happen. You have a calendar, you have your times. Be there, you're wasting our time. Our time is being wasted.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Yeah, this is the difference between enterprise, massive corporation and startup usually, so a lot of people actually join meetings early.

Speaker 1: 6:07

I don't do that. I don't do that because I don't like the banter, I don't want to do the whole how's your weekend?

Speaker 1: 6:13

how's your dog? No, I don't want a water cooler. Second, my clock is on the hour of the half hour. I'm in there, I'm loading in, I'm getting ready to screen share if it's my meeting, otherwise I'm getting ready to. You know, at least listen, participate, do what I can, but no lateness if it. There is very few times when anyone at my company is late to a meeting and it's usually like, for you know, medical reasons or something like I had to go do CPR on my dog, like no one's ever late.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Ever Poor dogs. Who's doing CPR on their dogs in the middle of the day? I'm not taking them to the vet. I got it.

Speaker 1: 6:52

I'd say I could never go back to corporate. I just couldn't do it. I work eight times as much as I used to, but there's a brutal efficiency to it. I could not deal with the nonsense that you just efficiency to it, and like I could not deal with the nonsense that you just explained to me. Oh, forgot it existed.

Speaker 2: 7:10

So many people listening to this sympathize with what I just said because they know. They know how often it happens and then I'm going to give you the worst one in the world. Oh, by the way, disclaimer if it's my meeting, I'm always on time. We always have an agenda and we get done early. Just to be clear, it's anytime it's someone else that's not on my team's meeting. I'm just like this is a GD waste of time. My favorite thing is you happen to meet more than 10 people. You get started after five minutes, the recording is there and then someone 10 minutes in says like oh hey, do we cover this already? And you're just like I swear If you were here the first five minutes of the meeting. Yeah, we covered it. Go back and listen to the recording.

Speaker 1: 7:48

Do you say that? Do you actually say that?

Speaker 2: 7:51

Oh, you should say that we passive, aggressively, say that and I even tell my team to do it. We'll be like yeah, we started with that in the beginning of the meeting. Feel free to check out the recording. Yeah, good, good, yeah. But sometimes it's like a VP or above and at that point you don't really have a choice. You got to be like oh yeah, let's go back to slide one. Going back five slides, let's restart for this. One person Happens all the time.

Speaker 1: 8:16

Don't have this problem. I love that I don't have this problem. It's great. It's great. Thank you for making me grateful for working with us. That's why.

Speaker 2: 8:25

This is why I'm late 30% of the time. By the way, are you recording this meeting? Do you have your consent to record this meeting? Okay, good, we should probably do the intro. So now that we're recording we should probably start.

Speaker 1: 8:36

Welcome back to Corporate Strategy, the podcast. It could have been an email I'm Bruce and I'm Clark, and and I'm Clark and you're on mute. See you next week. Good knowing you guys, it was fun, it's awesome.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Hey, did you see the survey? Yes, I saw the survey. I was actually surprised by the results.

Speaker 1: 8:53

I wasn't. I knew all along. Really, yeah, in your heart of hearts, in my heart of hearts, I knew who doesn't like a little goof.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Who doesn't like a little goof, who's like a little goof. You know, sometimes I just think we put it like the end of the episodes. I think we just go too far. I guess people want that.

Speaker 1: 9:10

It's the end. I mean, if you've listened that long, you've already lost. Did you not hear what I've said about meetings? See, I go back and that's why we don't get donations or anything. It's because we save all that crap for the end listen.

Speaker 2: 9:28

If you want more goof, go back. Don't listen the whole episode, just go to the last, like two minutes, and listen to every single and two minutes to every single episode and you will be happily surprised by the amount of goof there's a majority that says I need more goof. I was shocked that many people yeah, we had a lot of votes what 70 ish percent of people said more goof more goof.

Speaker 1: 9:53

And then there was a decent amount that says the goof is good, and only one was like less goof, yep.

Speaker 2: 10:00

Do you think they differentiate goof and structure? Do you think they want more structure?

Speaker 1: 10:05

That was actually. So I have a couple more survey questions. I was going to do one a week, so you know I just, yeah, you know I don't want to overwhelm them. I love our little Discord members. I don't want to, you know, make them do too much work on top of their day jobs. But I was going to ask do you like the flow of the show? Would you rather we have more consistent structure, or do you like the kind of meandering leading into sections when we feel like it? Organic versus structured, I think will be how I phrase it or keep it as it is right now.

Speaker 2: 10:33

Yeah, I like it. Look at you.

Speaker 1: 10:36

I also want to ask do we need more guests? Right amount of guests, less guests? Like, we'll figure all this out. I want to make sure we're giving the people exactly what they want, and I do know right now I want more goof. Yep.

Speaker 2: 10:49

More goof. I hope you have your license to goof updated. I'll be honest with you. My brain is complete mush, so a lot of what's going to come out of my mouth this episode will likely be goof.

Speaker 1: 11:01

I'm actually really excited for this episode, like let's just skip vibe check.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Cause I don't care. Um, well, first vibe check. We're happy you're alive, because alex and I didn't know if you were going to come back. It was really weird. It was really weird as a first episode in corporate strategy history that you were not a part of. It was strange. So at least tell the people you're alive and you're okay I'm alive, I'm okay.

Speaker 1: 11:21

so anyways, onto the topic. Uh, yes, I had real bad strep throat and, uh, it was sad. It was kind of sad because, like I went to film our our well, this is not in D8. I went to film something special that we're going to produce soon and when I got there, in the freaking under 10 degree Denver weather, the heat and everything was just like as the day went on, cause I was the MC for this event.

Speaker 1: 11:49

So like my voice is just getting worse and worse, and we kind of filmed it in reverse order, so it's almost going to sound like I'm getting better as the thing goes on. But yeah, there was a time there was a moment on stage where I was interviewing someone that we'd like paid to speak with us and like he does this five minute thing. It's really good, he's really good. And halfway through his speech, like I feel this tickle in my throat and I'm going to cough. But I'm mic'd up, I'm on camera, like I have to keep it cool, I have to keep together, so I suppress it, I'm just like doing my best to not do anything. There are literally tears coming out of my eyes because like it's getting worse and it's starting to hurt. And then the second he's done. I say thank you, but what comes out is like it's so bad, I'm like I'm so sorry, like at least we got your take, I'll redo this, I'm dying, please forgive me. And then apparently they could hear every time I was like drinking and coughing and like clearing my throat and like this is just so embarrassing.

Speaker 1: 12:53

So after that I found out I did have strep. Fortunately I didn't give it to anybody. I think I got it on the plane ride over and it was just kind of like brewing Literally. Got back, was dying, got antibiotics. Three days later I had to fly back out for another thing where I was doing presentations and fortunately the voice was at least like moderately recuperated, but there was no way I was doing a podcast, just none. I was like, yeah, I didn't want us to stop. We've been doing so good on the streak, so I think y'all can handle it yeah, absolutely yeah, anytime we need a sub.

Speaker 2: 13:22

We got a good bank of people that can jump in, so happy you're alive. I also went on a trip this past weekend and I got sick too. I went to Minnesota Minnesota. I have some friends, some old co-workers, who were there, so we went in to experience the true tundra of the north and the Monday temperature. Monday morning the feels like temperature was negative 29. The actual temperature was negative 13. Terrible, it was absolutely insane. But I also got sick. I got a stomach bug the day we got there. I don't think it was from the plane, nora, thanks. I don't know what it was. It was really weird. I like, and I usually have a pretty iron stomach, but we ate something and I pretty clean, so it was a little bit out of my normal diet. But we're traveling. I'm like why not? I could not like stomach anything for the next three days, like everything I would eat would just make me sick. So I ended up coming back on the plane back home after like three days, totally fine, yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:22

I don't know if it's what I ate. I think there's an actual bug going around. It's called Nora or something like that. Someone I work with got it. It couldn't come to the thing in Scottsdale Arizona, arizona. It's just going around.

Speaker 2: 14:38

It's terrible.

Speaker 1: 14:42

I've been on and off sick since December.

Speaker 2: 14:45

I'm ready for it to be done, I'm ready 2025 is a year of health for you. You got to turn, it's not it's not.

Speaker 1: 14:53

There's no way. I think, um, I know the antibiotics actually like worked. They cured up a lot. They cured up more than just the strep. So I'm hoping, like right now I'm in this good state of cleanliness, just how you have purged all of your disgusto, uh, through different means, but you know, purge nonetheless. Hopefully we can just plateau here I like it and we're getting sick. Rest of the year that's it all right deal.

Speaker 2: 15:23

I Can we just agree to that now I'll sign up for that.

Speaker 1: 15:26

What piece of my soul.

Speaker 2: 15:28

Do I have to give to the devil in order to make I?

Speaker 1: 15:29

think, statistically it's in our favor, given our country has now left the world health organization and is, you know, electing non-scientific people to tell us about medicine and science. So I think we're fine. I think, if anything, we're never going to get sick again.

Speaker 2: 15:44

So God bless, let's go, let's ride this train. We're going to live forever, we're never going to get sick and technology is going to rule our lives.

Speaker 1: 15:52

You know what I hate? Smart people, doctors, scientists, medical professionals who went to school for seven years. They're stupid, useless. Get out of here. What do you know? Just let me do surgery Useless Get out of here.

Speaker 2: 16:03

What do you know? Just let me do surgery. Yeah, I was a software engineer, I could do it.

Speaker 1: 16:08

Give me that scalpel, I'm going to start cutting. You know what I'm saying? Like, let me loose, let me in there. That's actually a pretty decent transition into today's topic, believe it or not, I don't know. Get ready Like I didn't know. Get ready like I didn't know this. I'm sure, I'm sure our uh previous host, alex restrepo, is intimately familiar with this, but I am going through the process of reviewing my team for pay raises and promotions and all that, and I was sitting down with the hr coordinator today and they're walking me through all of this and it's called calibration by the way, please stop the they they informed me of it's called the pareto principle, p-a-r-e-t-o principle you heard of this before I have heard of it.

Speaker 2: 16:54

I do not remember what it is, but I know what I've. I know I've heard it all right.

Speaker 1: 16:58

This comes from wikipedia. The pareto principle is also known as the 80 rule, the law of the vital few and the principle of factor sparsity. It states that for many outcomes, roughly 80% of consequences come from 20% of causes. The vital few. And the way it was used with me is you know, at any business, 20% of the employees bring about 80% of the value to the organization. Within that 20%, I think there's a 3% in the corporate measure. There's a 3% that does just gangbusters. Let that simmer for a second. That's crazy.

Speaker 2: 17:45

Just I just let that simmer for a second, but like it's crazy when I heard this you I didn't know if I literally thought you went on mute because you were so at a loss for words I still am.

Speaker 1: 17:58

When I heard this, my stomach flipped like an hr person just told me this Like this is truth and I'm not arguing that it's not right, like when I saw it, like I guess this kind of makes sense. But then, like, is this actually true? And if you start looking at I mean just looking at the Wikipedia page, there's a lot of data to kind of back up that this is actually something that is within a certain standard deviation of error mostly true. Is that acceptable?

Speaker 2: 18:34

No, is it avoidable? I think is the better question. As you, especially as you think of your own team. I get a decent sized team to think that 80% of my team let's use round numbers If I have a team of 10, eight people are not significantly contributing and only two are like for my own team. I don't think it's true.

Speaker 1: 19:01

Yeah, I think it's definitely not probably in my team or my larger uh org that I'm part of.

Speaker 2: 19:07

It's not factually not true yeah, I think, as you're a startup, you have the unique opportunity to work with like super talented people and you're all doing crazy amounts of work because you you have to to stay alive. So, yeah, it's weird actually, thinking back to it. It's weird that your HR person told you at a relatively small startup still I mean, you guys are growing a lot but that they told you that this is the principle. I can totally see it where I work, like if, as I think about the broader whole of the organization, absolutely only 20% of people do the work, and then you have three people like in. You guys will realize this If you're a high performer, there are certain people that just get shit done and they're smart. Every single time I know I'm sorry, sorry for the little ears Every single time you do something important, you end up going to this person like, oh, you'll realize, all roads lead to this person somehow.

Speaker 2: 20:01

And those are the 3%. There's like a core group of people that you're like, if I want to do something, I'm going to end up going back to them, and so either everything goes through them, every single thing ends up going through them, they get promoted through the ranks, whatever, or they're like this hidden resource that they don't want anyone to know about them, but certain people do when they go to them for these things, to try to get things done.

Speaker 1: 20:25

So it's totally true in a massive organization. I think back to our time at Big Corp and if I just think about the people whose names I can't even remember because they were so inconsequential like maybe, yeah, you know, like 80% seems like a large number. Until I think about just our time in the scrum pits. Remember when we had the scrum pits? Oh, I remember 80% of those people were definitely useless and I include myself in that number because I was certainly useless when we were in the scrum pits. So like yeah, yeah, just riding that wave. So okay, it's true, it's, it's at least true. When you get to a certain large enough number, what do we do about it? I mean, obviously, like you know, we talk about CAC a lot on this and CAC is very personal. This is, this is something that's a bigger look at structural, organizational you know, it's HR level, right Like is this solvable or do we just accept this for what it is?

Speaker 2: 21:32

I think, in order to try to solve it, we have to try to think about why it happens. Okay, I think the reason it happens in any business that's growing is one there are only so many really talented people in the world. Not everybody is talented and smart and willing to work really hard Like you are going to. Eventually, I think it's inevitable, you'll get people that are not going to be A players.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Get the pal voodoo out of your mouth. That's something right. Voodoo out of your mouth.

Speaker 2: 22:04

I wish, with the best intent, I wish I could say everybody was super smart. Everyone's going to work hard on everything they do, but no, for a lot of people they don't care enough to work that hard. They just want to earn a paycheck and sign off at the end of the day, which is okay as long as they're doing their job Well. That's the thing I think. As you're scaling like, I think, sheer volume, you're going to hit this Like I think it's inevitable. Is, I guess, what I'm saying? But I think the reason is, when you're scaling at least my hypothesis at some point your business is doing so well that you're not scaling slowly over time.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Usually you're scaling quick because the market demand is shifting to you or you're starting to take over from the competition, or something big happens that thrusts a wave at you. You've got to hire fast, and in order to hire fast, you're not going to do the due diligence on everybody that joins, and so you're going to, naturally, I think, just get a bunch of people. That may or may not be great. You'll get some good, but you'll get a majority bad as you're scaling. And then Alex actually said something that I've never heard before on the last episode, but it was really really wise A players hire A players. B players hire C players.

Speaker 1: 23:16

And as you're scaling. Yeah, it was so good, Like light bulb in my head.

Speaker 2: 23:20

I'm like every B player I've worked for has hired C players and if they had. A players, they get rid of them quick. That's the way it goes.

Speaker 1: 23:27

They get rid of them.

Speaker 2: 23:29

Yeah, it literally happened to me. I was an A player working for a B manager and he found a way to get me off the team and the second I joined another team, I got promoted and everybody was really happy. So true, so they try to get people underneath them that you know can just do what they say and boost their ego. But to go back to what we're talking about, it's like, as you scale, these b players are hiring c players and then c players are hiring d players or e, f players, whatever such a such a letter exists. Yeah, I think so. Letter e exit no kidding so that's my hypothesis.

Speaker 2: 24:06

What do you think you would like that? Does it make sense?

Speaker 1: 24:09

it does, I do like it. It does make sense. So it just makes me ask more questions, which is, if the b players are hiring c players, are the b players actually the problem and are the c players fixable right? Because like, if you put a C player in management, is that now correct? Can we make a C player an A player and avoid the B player pit?

Speaker 2: 24:33

You could. It's all about potential skill development guidance, but if they're only getting guided by the B player, they're never going to get there.

Speaker 1: 24:43

So let's imagine a perfect world, right Like. You have the choice to hire whomever you'd like and you don't have to hire whoever you don't like and you can fire whoever you want. Can you build an organization that's 2000 person plus that avoids this?

Speaker 2: 25:01

I personally think like 2000 plus I think. So Now, if you're getting to like 500,000, no, I think you're going to hit this law just because of sheer volume, like I don't think there's a way around it. How?

Speaker 1: 25:12

many is Twitter now, or X or whatever the hell it's called. I've got no idea, cause he cut so much right, like, yeah, dude.

Speaker 2: 25:21

He cut a ton.

Speaker 1: 25:26

I mean to be honest, though, if you want to keep the A players, you kind of got to go slash and burn. Hold on, I'm doing it on Google Great radio.

Speaker 2: 25:36

Great radio. Everyone wants to listen to this.

Speaker 1: 25:37

Great radio. Oh, there's actually like a employee count over the last few years. Hold on, Hold on, hold on. I'm going to give us some. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling, I swear I'm scrolling. Get this Ketamine. Elmo, when did he acquire what? Two years ago now? Yeah, so at the time of acquiring 7,500 employees In 2012,. When Twitter was founded, it was 2,000 employees. Wow, yeah, so I mean, you know, maybe that's part of the problem. The question is, did the cuts actually make it better? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 26:27

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think there's always going to be like to your point of like how do you fix this? Yes, you have to kind of be ruthless and say we're gonna weed out b players and c players and c yeah, anybody who's not a, anyone who's not an a player.

Speaker 1: 26:45

We're weeding them out and we're going to fire so okay To go back to our management episode with Danny Yonkers. He had the example of maybe even a C player that could have been an a player in a different role, right. So like I think we do have to establish that a lot of this isn't actually the person that's the problem, it's the position. Yep, I don't know if ruthless cuts is the answer, so much as it is like actually hiring for the right role, ensuring that the proper people are promoted to the position that is best for their specific skill sets, or not promoted when promotion is not appropriate. Don't just make every good IC a manager or director. Make good managers and directors good managers and directors.

Speaker 2: 27:41

Yeah, I think the I mean the easy way to like avoid this is intentionally hire and take the right time, but yes, capitalism doesn't wait for that. You know what I mean. Like sometimes and I've even done I've hired someone a little too quickly, should have probably done a little more due diligence and they didn't end up working out. Yeah, you do have to think about like. Yeah, I'm kind of to blame, I should have put them through some more due diligence or had a different process to like really try to weed out the issues.

Speaker 2: 28:08

But I think, as companies are scaling, like sometimes you're just so desperate to be like we need bodies, Like you're just trying to find anybody who can remotely do the job. Bring them in. So once you're already in the problem, then yeah, you've got options, it's. Do you intentionally take the time to train people, to set proper expectations, to reorganize the company in a way that actually makes sense, or do you just go slash and burn route and say we're just going to cut everybody that can't do this programming test on a whiteboard, we're cutting. I mean that's not the solution.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Yeah, you can't do that it's an option. Sure, is it the right option?

Speaker 1: 28:49

probably, not probably not because, again, you know, it's not looking at actual yeah, not cac but like actual culture fit, skill set, fit. Like where does this person, where is this person's best excellence going to come from? You know, we need a different acronym for that. Like this might be the year of cac, but I I think there's an opportunity to actually define something from a management perspective.

Speaker 1: 29:12

How do you put someone where they'll be the most? How do you take a d player and turn them into an, a player in that company? Like there's there's a formula for that there's got to be, because I truly believe there's gotta be, cause I, I truly believe you know, if you got the job, unless it's truly like the manager sucks and they're just trying to like cover their own tracks by hiring bad people, there is a place for you at that company. You've got the job for a reason and like it's, it's the management, it's the direction, it's the organization that's failing you, not you failing the company yeah, I agree, I always assume positive intent and placement is a big piece of that.

Speaker 2: 29:51

Like you want to assume everybody's smart, everybody's capable, but to your point, I think placement is really important, like do they have the right skills, the right experience to do this job, the right demeanor, whatever the qualities are and and to be to fix this, like you have to be intentional. You have to say are they in the right spot? Do they have the right skills? And you, based on those answers, do they have the right demeanor? You could say, okay, what do we need to do? If they don't have the right skills, we can train them. So we can train them up and get them the right certifications. We can have them trained to do it. We can sit them with a mentor.

Speaker 2: 30:29

Sometimes there are things you can't solve, like do they have too big of an ego? Do they not know how to talk to people? And they need to talk to people in this role? And then the question is okay, do you move them to something that's more individual, contributor based, so that way they can do better in that role, because we generally think they're smart and could be good. And then some cases you're just like, okay, this person. You can't, I can't fix that. They kind of suck. As a person. You gotta let them go.

Speaker 1: 30:53

Yeah, I'm thinking back. I made the example earlier when we were in the scrum pits and I was part of that 80%. But prior to that, when you and I were on the team together, we were the 20, right. Like we goofed off all day and we made that place so much better than before. We were there because we loved what we did, we did it effectively and it gave us plenty of time for goof.

Speaker 1: 31:21

When we got moved, I mean, you were more successful than I was, but when I got moved, they're basically like oh, you must know what you're doing. So here's a project that you have no skill set in. You are completely in over your head for what you're building. Go build it with these complete strangers you have no culture with. And I failed for three years there because of that and like I probably should have been fired in all honesty, like I think I survived because of my personality, but like it was not good.

Speaker 1: 31:50

And I think a lot of people were there with me too, which is like you took us out of the element in which we were hired to succeed and placed us under a. Go build this thing so we can make lots of money quickly. And they didn't. By the way, that didn't happen. They ended up wasting a metric butt ton of money in doing this project, so I truly believe this is a management issue in retrospect, like they took an a player and turned me into a d player yeah, they set you up for failure, I think, is the way to say.

Speaker 2: 32:23

It's like, yeah, you couldn't have been successful. I think you're too hard on yourself. By the way, I think you did everything you could to try and be successful. I think the whole project was doomed from the start. It was doomed right.

Speaker 1: 32:34

well, it was 200 people. They literally pulled 200 people from their places of success and comfort and said these are all the best people we've got in the company. Go build this thing You're clearly qualified for it without knowing what we were even building, and it just, I think, like that is the result of like D tier management bringing down a, b, c's all to the D level.

Speaker 2: 33:00

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1: 33:01

Yeah, it's yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:02

And I mean I think it just people don't know what that company is. But I think that company I mean the trajectory of that happened after we left to now clearly says like leadership was the issue big corp is no longer around for anyone curious, which is crazy big corp has been consumed by the machine that is capitalism yep, yeah, it's crazy because it's just.

Speaker 2: 33:27

They made a big swing, which I can respect like I think you do have to swing for the fences a little bit but there was no product sense or strategy of what we were really trying to do. And taking all the big people and throwing them at something and say, hey, make something that works, without any kind of guidance or structure or thinking about, like, how this could even affect them, like, are these the right people, is this the right mesh of skills and capabilities to get us there Was certainly the wrong approach. They should have started with a core team to be like, okay, these are the top people, they've got the right skills, let's have them build towards this thing. And then bring in people as you kind of really start building something, to say, okay, do they have the right skills, are they the right demeanor for this job? In this, the culture of the team, whatever it is, let's bring them on intentionally rather than just like what was that term in the early, early odds blitz scaling rather than just blitz scaling to whatever direction I know so bad.

Speaker 1: 34:25

It's so bad in retrospect. Just the word blitz. Let's not, uh, especially now. Let's not, please, is there?

Speaker 2: 34:35

ever a situation where just blitzscaling really works, throwing bodies at it, hiring thousands upon thousands of people this is the whole rock.

Speaker 1: 34:48

This is the problem with the term rock star, right, like we throw that around a lot in corporate. Oh yeah, clark's a rock star. You throw him on a project, you're going to be successful. All we need to do is get all the rock stars and put them together and the failing of this is the beatles, like literally the biggest rock stars of all time, just cranked out what is it? 10 absolute bangers of albums over six years. Some of the greatest music ever made by four human beings. Just absolute tour de force talent.

Speaker 1: 35:25

When they broke up they never saw like a percentage of the success that they had in their group. And like I'm not saying they're not talented, like George Harrison's one of the most talented guitarists ever. Paul McCartney, incredibly talented singer, songwriter, like good band, did you know? Okay, on their own. I mean paul still gets concerts, people still listen to him, but like he hasn't made a single jam that comes close to what they made when they were in the beatles.

Speaker 1: 35:54

And you can look at any like major group that breaks up. Or like I'm gonna go off and do my own thing. I mean there's there's small exceptions, like Justin Timberlake and you know a few individuals become bigger as solo artists Beyonce, but solo artist, not as a group. Why do we use the term rock star? This is basically where I'm getting to, because it happens to rock stars, it's going to happen to people. It's the Prater principle. You're taking something that's actually like 100% good and you're like, ah, let's do the 2080 again, let's do it, Just throw in some background drummer, a guitarist who cares who it is?

Speaker 1: 36:34

It'll be good, it'll be great, it's one person Don't carry him. We got Paul McCartney. What could go wrong? Yeah, you think Paul McCartney could do scrum. You think if we shoved him in the scrum pits he would do okay with agile, like, hey, buddy, your, your output of songs is not, you know, up to snuff. I need you to re-estimate the velocity. How many, how many points is a song per week from you?

Speaker 2: 37:01

your backlogs running a little dry. You should really do some competitive intelligence in here. All you're doing is writing poems and we need bangers.

Speaker 1: 37:12

Listen, we need bangers out of you. Where's the yesterdays at like, I'm looking for the yesterdays eleanor rigby's. Oh, how many, how many points was that on?

Speaker 2: 37:23

the velocity board. Why don't we fill the backlog with some bangers? Okay, just get it together and get some bangers in there. Prioritize it.

Speaker 1: 37:31

Okay, it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I think this is the real takeaway. I started with Praetor Principle, but I think I've landed somewhere else, which is don't move people, don't do it. I think that's how you get there. Like, if we really diagnose this problem, yes, I think hiring is a big part of it. I completely agree with Restrepo's comment B players hire C tier. I believe that. But I think the real crux of this is when you have management or you get promoted in management and you're not the right fit. You can very easily take what is wholesome and good and operating at a hundred percent efficiency and completely bungle that up because you don't actually understand that the people are where they belong, the talent is where it is at foster it, pay it, promote it, but don't move it, don't it?

Speaker 2: 38:23

let it be good, let it be so you're proposing that if there's like a rock star team they're crushing vibes, real, every single project they're doing just knocks out of the park, generating tons of revenue. It's like just just leave them alone, don't touch them, don't add more people, do not touch them, don't pull people, just say, hey, whatever you guys got, whatever magic juju you got going in this team, keep doing the good things. I mean, if it ain't broke. Yeah, I like what you're saying and, to be honest with you, I like the idea of giving them more agency. But I think there's careful there there's. You gotta be really cautious because just because you can give them a roadmap and they can execute and do really well doesn't mean they'd be good with more autonomy or agency.

Speaker 1: 39:19

Right, I mean sticking with the social network. You know, uh, facebook has well, they bought Instagram, but Instagram has since added what? What's it called? Reels? What's the?

Speaker 2: 39:30

videos.

Speaker 1: 39:31

Yeah, Reels. So you know, if you had the rockstar team.

Speaker 2: 39:34

Yeah, no, no reels. And then threads is something they recently started.

Speaker 1: 39:39

We'll use Reels and Threads as an example. Right Like. Threads was not a success as far as I'm concerned because no one talks about it, no one uses it. But if you took the team, instagram is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, picture sharing social network out there. The team that built that probably got some really good talent there. But if you took them and said, hey, go make it work for video, go make it work for text, that's where you get threads.

Speaker 1: 40:09

Right Like, you picked the wrong people to make your project work, when they should be focused on what they've done. Well, and I don't. I don't have an inside scoop at Instagram, I'm just making a hypothesis based on the conversation we've had here. But I've seen that happen to us. Right Like, we were crushing it and then we weren't, because we were moved based on rockstar status and an expectation that if they can, if they can build a, then they can absolutely build X, when that's not at all equivalent and not considerate of the skills, the vibe, the culture, the energy, all of those things. The challenge, I think, is actually what do you do when you have a rockstar team that can't do anything else and they no longer bring value to the company.

Speaker 2: 40:56

Yeah, it's like if you decommission their product they're working on, I mean, then you have to ask it's like, okay, they were productive, but they weren't working on the right things. And I think that's kind of the crux of all this is, if a team or group people are doing really, really well, it's only natural to be like give them more. Give them more, put them on something more important, because it'll be better for the organization. If you do that which I think in a lot of ways it can be if you do that which I think in a lot of ways it can be If you set them up for success, they can be successful in that change. I think that's the right thing to do in a corporation. It's hey, we've got this big bet that we need to do. We need good people. We got to pluck the good people, because the thing they're working on now, even though they're crushing it, is not as important as this thing that we're starting Like. You got to weigh those priorities.

Speaker 1: 41:47

And again this all comes back to the problem, which is companies have to chase profit at all costs. So rather than say, hey, we can just sustain this, we've created infinite energy. As long as we continue to do what we're doing, just the way we do it today, we'll always be cash flow positive and can continue to exist. That's not good enough. I need to have 20% profit increase next year, and we're not going to get that by being good at what we're good at. We have to do something else. I think that is the belly of the beast that forces the stupidity to happen.

Speaker 2: 42:26

I think you're right.

Speaker 1: 42:26

We have to go build a headset, even though we own the phone market. Let's go do something that no one's asked us for, that we can fail spectacularly at.

Speaker 2: 42:37

We have to build headphones because we're a vacuum company. Thanks, Dyson. You know what I'm talking about. It is true, I think that's it. It's the cause, that's where it starts that is where it starts.

Speaker 2: 42:51

I think the cause is that and the effect is the prater principle yep, I think if you are just funny because you know the prater, principle is all about cause and effect, so yeah, cyclical, sure I think, if you're a private company, if you're privately owned, held, like, or you're a single board of directors, like think about facebook. So yeah, cyclical, worrying about bottom line, I mean, of course he still has to worry about it.

Speaker 2: 43:22

But he could just say, hey, we're not going to do anything new, we're doing great. Search is a great business, we'll be good to go. Now there are going to be disruptors that come along, or competition, and you're going to have to figure out how do you fend those off and hold your market share, because that's the rest of the world.

Speaker 2: 43:38

But, if the rest of the world was just satisfied with where they were at, then you'd never have this problem. I don't think, cause then you'd be like, oh, it's just the stain, it's just coast. But I think human nature isn't like that. Human nature is always going to push you to want to do more, to make more money, to try to do more things. I think it's just in us.

Speaker 1: 43:56

Yeah, and I mean I'm not saying that like you can't do new. I mean Facebook marketplace is the perfect example, right, like they're super successful and that was never a great Facebook's original vibe. So like you absolutely can do new ideas Apple was a computer company, now they're a phone company. Like you know, like you can pivot, you can change, you can grow. I'm not saying you shouldn't, just when you're forced to, when you're forced to think outside the box, not because you want to, then you're forced to think outside the box not because you want to, but because you have to. I think that leads to destruction.

Speaker 2: 44:30

It's funny. Also, in the last episode Alex brought up a happy story about Arizona tea company.

Speaker 1: 44:35

Oh my gosh, that video is great.

Speaker 2: 44:36

If you haven't seen it, that is so good. That is the definition of what we're talking about right now. It's like just say, hey, we're making tons of money, we're fine, we're keeping the operations lean, we only have A players. And Alex told the story of like yeah. They asked the guy hey, how big is your marketing department? He's like it's huge. It's like six foot eight, because it's one person doing the whole thing, which it's like if that's working and they're doing great and they're making good money and they're fulfilled. It's like that's the dream. But they do have to worry about like will there be a disruptor, but their brand has held the test of time? Like that is the true. Interesting thing is like how, how have they been able to thwart disruption and competition so well while still maintaining how they are?

Speaker 1: 45:21

That's the dream, I'll give them even more of a shout out. Because if I'm on the road, if I'm doing a day trip somewhere and I have to stop at a gas station and I'm looking at the drinks and I want something cool, refreshing and tasty, I'm always going to get the can of Arizona, because Coke I used to love Coke. Coke used to taste good. Now it tastes like garbage, it tastes like battery acid. It's so disgusting. They ruined it and I'm sure they ruined it for the purpose of profit. But Arizona tastes the exact same way it did when I used to buy the cans in high school. It's like I'm drinking nostalgia, because nothing tastes that good anymore. Everything tastes like crap. It fascinates me that, that it upsets me, because I feel in their case that could be the world we live in. Yeah, like every company could be arizona, but because of the stock market and billionaire, billionaire itis, the terrible disease of grading capitalism like we can't have nice things.

Speaker 2: 46:29

Yeah, arizona is the exception, but it is not the rule yeah, there's definitely some diamonds in the rough of everything else, and there's a there's something called, uh, the innovators dilemma, which is just, it's all about just uh, the law that, like, big companies can't innovate and they will be disrupted by smaller companies that come up with better ideas and they can move and be more nimble, and things they talk about like, oh yeah, we should shift our AI strategy.

Speaker 2: 46:58

They're talking about let's host a meeting in three months, and small startups are like no, we're doing it right now and we're starting to take market share right now. We don't need to wait three months to talk about this, like, we're doing it actively. And so it's like, as a big company, in order to, you got to balance that like how, how often are you innovating? How often are you looking at competition to say what do we need to do to change things, while still trying to be nimble? In that way, and I think the larger your corporation, the harder it is to do. And that's why I think Arizona it's like, yeah, if the head guy sees something, they can all just like switch on a dime, because it's such a small organization of saying like, okay, let's just flip, we'll do something different today.

Speaker 1: 47:32

And so I think, that's like the beauty.

Speaker 2: 47:34

It's like if you're a lean organization generating a ton of revenue, you can probably protect yourself from being disrupted.

Speaker 1: 47:48

Well, and like it was so refreshing just to see like he never sacrificed the product. Yeah, what he did was he improved how the product was canned, where it was canned, how they deliver it. The time they do it they do it at night because traffic is less. It's like, oh my gosh, it's all just optimization problems that he's solving for to keep the cost low, to keep the customer happy, and he never sacrifices the quality of the tea, which is what everyone wants.

Speaker 2: 48:09

It's just do I hear church bells in the background?

Speaker 1: 48:14

uh, yeah, that's my clock. It goes up on the hour. That's why you're on time for everything you're like church bells are ringing.

Speaker 1: 48:22

My wife got me the coolest clock, uh, for christmas and it's, uh, it's called a kleido clock k-l-y-d-o. It's got a unique, it's got a little, it's got a face. Every day the face is something different and it's like a moving thing, so, like you might see, you know, like a trippy space field one day and the next day it's a little dancing robot. I love it Great. It ticks, it chimes on the hour, which is great for me because it keeps me just on track of, like, what time it is, cause I I lose the time in my count. Like I'll literally just be in meetings and not know what time it is, cause I'm just thing Everything. It's great, highly recommend, great product. I'm sure it'll be sucky in 10 years, don't worry.

Speaker 2: 49:07

That's pretty sweet. Get it today, before it sucks tomorrow. Yeah, exactly, Get it today quick, before they get disrupted and have to innovate to something way worse.

Speaker 1: 49:16

Google's going to buy them and it's going to be like Nest all over again.

Speaker 2: 49:19

Yeah, poor Nest. Well, I don't think we ever got to any conclusions. I think it's, at the end of the day, there's ways to avoid this by being intentional about hiring, being intentional about moving people, even if they're good, and making sure if a team is not doing great, you try to figure out. Is it a skillset issue? Is it a placement issue? Could we put this person in a different spot and they would do better? Or could we train them this skill and they could do better? And I think those are the right things to do to try to get well. We're going to promote you, you're going to get a raise, whatever it is, so that way they have the motivation to do it. Which all of that retaining employees, helping make them happy, making them more skilled that's just going to help your company in the long run.

Speaker 1: 50:17

Yep, I agree and I'm really glad you're the 20% of this podcast, thank God for that.

Speaker 2: 50:23

I feel like I'm the three and you're the 20, but You're like wait what? No, I follow. No, you too.

Speaker 1: 50:32

You know, when I was looking at this, I noticed on the Wikipedia page. You ever heard of the 1% rule.

Speaker 1: 50:41

I don't know 1% rule is a hypothesis that more people will lurk in a virtual community than will participate. And you know what? I think we buck this trend because you can join our discord today and we don't have nearly as many even the lurkers like. They're like hi, I'm a lurker, it's like that. Okay, immediately by saying that you're not a lurker anymore, you're a human being. So if you want to join our discord and join in the kind of conversations that we have here it's actually been a little dead this week it's probably because we haven't been it's our fault Stroking the flame. We need to get back in there and put some, put some lighter fluid on that bad, that bad place, but don't, we are not the 1%. Down with them, down with them. I say down with them. We throw the blue shell at them and join our discord.

Speaker 1: 51:32

The way you do that is by going to the show notes of the podcast thing you're listening to right now through your ear holes. In those notes, be a link tree. You can join our discord, join the conversation. You can play what do you meme? Or you can submit a picture, meme form, of something we talked about in the previous episode and we have to describe it in the next one with our word mouths. You can do Is it Me or Is it Corporate? Anonymous confessions. Do forward, slash, confess in the Is it Me or Is it Corporate channel and we will respond to any anonymous confession about your corporate sins and we will tell you if it's a you thing or a corporate thing. Get in there, it's a good community.

Speaker 2: 52:06

Good people.

Speaker 1: 52:07

All of our guests come from Discord, so, like, get in here, hang with us. You can also donate If you'd like to see the show keep going. So would we. Right now we're ad free, but we're not going to be for much longer because we got to make the monies y'all. So if you'd like to donate, you can go to buy us a coffee, also in our link tree, and support the show there. We have a website. We have a merch store. We don't make any money on the merch, but you can buy your baby, a baby onesie. Yes, clark, is there anything else?

Speaker 2: 52:35

No, I think you got it all. Yeah, we got a website. You can submit topics there, but it's not as great, it's not as great as going to Discord and you can literally just type it in and see a bunch of live feedback. You can stay completely anonymous, so don't feel like you need to oust yourself. This is meant to be just a great community to create an awesome corporate strategy community out there in the world so we can all help each other have better lives in the corporate setting.

Speaker 1: 52:59

It's the new LinkedIn. We don't allow self-help here. If you come in here and you're blasting, your self-help propaganda. We will kick you. You're not invited. You're not invited. Get that out of here. I get up at 6 o'clock every day and drink my million dollar cup. We don't want that. Shove that down the toilet. Our Discord's for real people only Flush it. Linkedin 2.0. That's what we're going to rename it. It's no longer the Corporate Fan, it's LinkedIn. If it didn't suck.

Speaker 2: 53:27

Maybe we don't just use the name. We don't want to live the legacy We've got to come up with something better.

Speaker 1: 53:35

We need to Instagram this Facebook. Yeah, I think that's it. I think that's it for this show.

Speaker 2: 53:39

Yeah, share it. Bless you, Clark. We only grow if you share, so share yeah bless you.

Speaker 1: 53:44

Yes, we're happy you're back. Please, I'm glad to be back, been too long. Glad to be back Letting loose. As always, you're Clark and you're Bruce and y'all are on mute. We'll see you next week.