Corporate Strategy
Corporate Strategy
152. We are Writing a Book
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This episode explores habit stacking and its potential to enhance productivity and life satisfaction. By combining intentional habits with daily routines, listeners are encouraged to reflect on their values, career aspirations, and the practicality of multitasking while evaluating their long-term goals.
• Discuss personal fatigue and its impact on productivity
• Explain the concept of habit stacking and its applications
• Question the effectiveness of multitasking in daily routines
• Evaluate the sacrifices needed to achieve career dreams
• Encourage community involvement in the podcast’s book project
• Emphasize the importance of self-reflection in career choices
• Discuss the role of culture, autonomy, challenge, and compensation (CAC) in job fulfillment
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Elevator Music by Julian Avila
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Squirreling and Health Updates
Speaker 1don't you act , don't you do this you're doing , you're squirreling me . Sometimes I squirrel you , you're squirreling me you got something to say welcome back to the podcast giving an email .
Speaker 2I'm bruce , got him , got him and I'm out . Yeah , you are just . I just destroyed clark . I just destroyed him in real time . That's what you just saw happen here .
Speaker 1Got him how you doing clark , I'm , I'm alive , you see how I look right now uh-huh yeah , you look like a hacker .
Speaker 2Clark has a white hoodie a white gray hoodie on . For some reason , it's 77 degrees outside . Why are you mush ? What's going on ?
Speaker 1I'm mush , I don't know what it is . I don't know what it is about this week . Maybe it's something to do with the warm weather . Yeah , maybe I'm just more tired . I didn't do anything different . I get more tired in the cold , do you ? My diet's the same , I'm just more tired . I didn't do anything different . I get more tired in the cold , do you ?
Speaker 2My diet's the same .
Speaker 1I'm exercising the same amount , Same schedule Nothing's really new . But I just feel exhausted for some reason . Maybe it is the change of weather , Maybe because we went from cold to hot . What do you think ? You know ?
Speaker 2tuberculosis is back . Maybe you got TB . Yeah , oh no . Yeah , I think you got that . Yep , that's how it starts . Sound like it ? Yeah , I think you got it . I think you got it . Man , you're in the right state , though . You're in the state where they used to send all the TB patients , so you'll survive , don't worry .
Speaker 1Well , that's good news . How are you ? Yeah , have you gotten over your sickness ? Are you healthy ? Yes , oh , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2No , the antibiotics , they didn't just work , they like cured up some other stuff I was dealing with too , which is nice , so I'm better than good , I'm great .
Speaker 1I'm great you actually said that . You said that on the last episode that you think the antibiotics might help clear other stuff . That's good to hear yeah , they did .
Speaker 2It definitely did , because I was having some trouble with my ears and it's just gone now . So , nice , good , yeah , it's awesome you do look like yeah , I'm sitting down .
Speaker 1You're standing up .
Speaker 2That just tells me all I need to know I mean , my feet even hurt and I'm standing up . I put so check this out , you want to . You want a pro-life tip ? Corporate strategist . I bought some slippers slipper shoe type indoor shoes and put in my orthotics . So now , all day , when I'm standing , I'm helping rebuild the arches in my feet . It's not comfortable , but I am taking care of a physical ailment as I'm standing here working .
Speaker 1Wow , that's actually that is a thousand IQ . Move right there .
Speaker 2Sometimes I got it , sometimes I don't .
Speaker 1Look at you .
Speaker 2Sometimes I'm a zero IQ individual , so it just depends on the day .
Speaker 1Have you heard about the concept of habit stacking ?
Speaker 2No , have you heard about the concept of habit stacking ? No , that sounds . That sounds like something I'm going to roll my eyes at . But go ahead , Go ahead .
Speaker 1Put it out there this is not sponsored by David Allen . This is . I don't even know where this originates .
Habit Stacking and Multitasking Reflection
Speaker 2Habit stacking is where you start with a habit and then you build something micro on top of it .
Speaker 1You started with a habit and then you build something micro on top of it . You started with a habit standing up . Then you added another habit of using your , your shoes or your orth .
Speaker 2Orthotics is that what you call them orthotic inserts .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah you . Then you added those to it . And now your habit stacking . You're standing and you're helping correct your arches in your soles .
Speaker 2Now you're habit stacking , you're standing and you're helping correct your arches and your soles . Can I just do ? We have to name everything . Do we have to give everything a self-help name ? Oh , I'm habit stacking .
Speaker 2Oh I'm micro dosing . Oh I'm I'm min maxing my , my carboholic intake . Don't worry guys , I'm going to go do a power set of 20 today so I can load stack my quadriceps . When does it stop ? When do we just start speaking regularly to each other ? Oh yeah , bro , Get that habit stack on . Trust me , You're really going to feel good once you start habit stacking . Just go takezempic and get it over with like this is not medical advice just just go get ozempic and enjoy your life like that is hilarious .
Speaker 1Um , yeah , I think the brain works better when you have these small little words , something you know . It's funny because I'm curious on your thoughts . I think the brain works better when you have these small little words , something you know . It's funny because I'm curious on your thoughts . I think a lot of people just don't think like this , like . That's why I think it's helpful , because , like you yeah , you're sick of it because you probably hear this all the time , but I'd say you're in the upper echelon of the average human being . Thanks buddy .
Speaker 1Not just because you're a white male born in America . That helps . That helps with it . Yeah , that situation that helps , I think , in what you do , in knowledge work , like you kind of just get these things . You're like I don't need to think about doing these , these things , I just do them because it's good for me . I don't think a lot of people like have the time or mental capacity to do it . So when something comes up and they're like have it stacking , it's like two words , it's like that's genius , why don't I ? When I'm going to the bathroom I'm also , you know , hosting learning to a lingo yeah , yeah , or learning lingo , exactly .
Speaker 1It's like a lot of people don't really think about that , but it's like you can probably do that Habit stacking . I mean , okay , see what I do . I go on the treadmill at the end of my workouts to get some cardio in , and it usually ends in like a slow walk , and at that point I actually pull up my laptop and sometimes I crank through mindless email . I in like a slow walk and at that point I actually pull up my laptop and sometimes I crank through mindless email . I'm like I don't need to pay attention to any of the slot that I'm looking at right now . Let me crank out a hundred emails and I literally do it . I'm habit stack . I'm doing cardio and I'm dealing with stuff that doesn't require a lot of thinking .
Speaker 2See , but even even that term habit stacking , like habits , I I well , I guess there are bad habits , right , but like a good habit , like that , just I don't know , I I don't like the email on a treadmill like , firstly , our lives are a treadmill . Don't do email on the treadmill , don't do that clark . Just watch an anime . Go watch an anime on the treadmill . I could like that .
Speaker 1Go read trade-offs , read a book read something you've never read on the treadmill go read , read a book , read something you've never read before don't go read email . You know I habit stack reading . I'm going to start doing that . I'm going to do this whole episode with habit stack . I habit stack reading where I sit outside in the sun and I read so I get vitamin D and I'm reading at the same time and I love the outdoors so it helps reset my brain . Habit stacking .
Speaker 2I am not sorry for squirreling you in the beginning . You deserve to be squirreled after the things you've just admitted into the microphone .
Speaker 1What else do we habit stack ? What else do you habit stack ?
Speaker 2I don't , I don't , I don't really like multitasking because I can't focus well when I do . Yeah , for for me I mean , yeah , you know , like wearing orthotics and standing and working , that's , that's nothing . But you know , I can't watch a video and play a game at the same time , I just can't One . I think it's disrespectful to the art I'm engaging with . So , like , if I'm watching a movie , I'm not on a phone , right , like I'm watching a movie , I'm not on my phone , but that's the way it is .
Speaker 2Okay , I mean , think back to the olden times when a book was the best thing you could ever have in your home .
Speaker 2Like you sit down by candlelight and you read your book because it's a privilege to be able to read and to consume the word and think about what's written , and you might read that book 60 times because that might be one of the 10 books you have for the rest of your life , but you give it the attention it deserves . And now it's like , yeah , I might do a little bit of you know , I'm gonna eat my cheese nips while I'm watching , you know , the catch up of 90 Day Fiance , all while Instagramming my life about how privileged I am to sit on my $4,000 couch . And while I'm doing that , I'm also having my toes manicured by the manicure bot 5,000 . It's like , at what point do you realize that you're just , you're everything , and by being everything , you're nothing Like ? When does that sit in ? When do you realize like you're not enjoying anything anymore and like you cannot sit down and just have a moment with a piece of content and consume that content and let it waft over your brain ? When does that happen ? When do you ?
Speaker 1realize
Mindless and Mindful Habit Stacking
Speaker 1. This is where you've got it all wrong . You don't habit stack things that require all this attention . You can't habit stack those things . It makes no sense if you habit stack something mindless with something that requires your mind . Let's say you're doing an art form . You're like I really need to improve my grip email is not mindless though . Yeah , you'd See , this is where you're not in big corp anymore . Email , for the most part 95% is pretty freaking mindless , Like I can give answers to emails .
Speaker 1Did you just filter that crap ? I do , but most of it , you know , does get filtered , and then a lot of it . I just need to reply to with like three words and be like don't do that .
Speaker 2Thanks . Do we ever talk about my two line methodology ? No , here's a , here's a . This is not a habit stack , this is just a pro-life tip for anyone in work . There's a . This is Bruce's two line methodology . If your name is in the two line , you look at the email . If it is not , archive it . If you get another one about it , archive it . If you get a third one , then you can respond to it . But I guarantee you if your name is not in the two line , it's not your problem and someone else will respond and handle it . If your name's like hey , right now I'm looking at an email Name's not in the two line , I'm going to archive that email . Right after this it's gone . Not even going to read it , not even going to engage with it , and it's probably important it in the Bruce Tulane methodology .
Speaker 1In Big Corp , I get that . In a startup , I don't get that .
Speaker 2I mean , my name is almost always in the Tulane at startup , so you know I can't really do that here . But when I was at Big Corp , bro , you better believe Bruce's Tulane methodology all day , every day . I did not engage with email that much because of it . Fair enough , If it's important , it'll come back .
Speaker 1That's a really good point . It's just like the out of office thing we talked about . But go back to the habit stacking thing . I know you want to get off the stock , but I don't .
Speaker 2I combine something mindless with something mindful .
Speaker 1So I was going to the example of like you could combine . Let's say you want to improve your grip strength when you're watching the movie you can just be squeezing a little grip strength thing okay , mindless with mindful .
Speaker 2When you're driving , do you listen to podcasts ? Same idea is it ? Driving is not a habit yeah , but it's dead time .
Speaker 1You got to do it and then you're stacking something of your learning . That's's not habit stacking Fair enough .
Speaker 2Doing something mindless , I mean Right .
Speaker 1You combine the activities bathroom , duolingo .
Speaker 2Orthotics standing , like that's habit stacking , because it's two positive things you're now putting , it's two good habits you're putting together . Listening to things in the car is not a habit . Stack , my friend . Chain smoking that's what your vent says from running off the road into a ditch willfully Chain smoking binge , drinking habit stacking . That's bad habit stacking .
Speaker 1I never said it had to be good .
Speaker 2No , I mean , this is so stupid . Why do we do this ? Why do human do this ? Why do human beings feel the need to min-max everything ? I mean , have you , I dare , I dare go into this ? Have you seen what's going on with Elon Musk in video games ?
Speaker 1Oh no , I don't want to go here .
Speaker 2No , I have not , mr . Ketamine Elmo .
Speaker 1Wait , wait , wait . I did hear a little bit this thing . Okay , I don't want to go here . No , I did not Wait , wait , wait . I did hear a little bit this thing . Okay , I don't know a lot about this , admittedly , but he , he says he like plays video games all the time , Right , and he's like on a leaderboard , but then somebody found it's like not really him , or something Correct .
Speaker 2And
The Joy of Video Games
Speaker 2listen . The two games he plays Diablo four and path of exile two , I think , is what he's he's on now they're very min-max oriented games and , like I get it right , like I enjoy these kinds of games , it does scratch a very specific itch in the brain of like let me see if I can get the stats on this glove . I need to make me do just a little bit more damage in my build than I'm doing . Like it's min-maxing , it's math plus pulling the roulette wheel and hoping you get the right thing At the end of the day . It really is . If you just break down all the parts and componentry , it's just a little bit of luck mixed with a little bit of math .
Speaker 2These things butt up against each other and that's what makes the game take hundreds of hours to get through . Homeboy here feels the need we don't have to get in the details of it but like he's cheating . He's like he's cheating to get at the top of the leaderboard . But by doing that you remove all of the actual fun of the experience and it's like I just I take this and I think about , like well , what's the point of doing it ? Because , like , no one actually yes , there are those , probably the hundred sickos that care about their name on the leaderboard .
Speaker 2The majority I'm willing to bet 99% of the people who play these games do not play it to be on the leaderboard . They play it for that little itch in the brain . It's like oh yeah , I got what I need . Now I'm a little bit stronger , now I can go get the next thing I need , so I can be a little bit stronger . Like that's the principle of the thing . That's why people play these games . If you cheat , you've literally removed the enjoyment of the thing that you're supposed to be doing with that piece of interactive media . Stupid Like this is the this is . The problem is like we try to shortcut everything now and we don't even know why we're shortcutting anymore . Like we're removing the reason to shortcut thing in the first place .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah it's . I try to do the things like that you have to do but you don't want to do . If I want to enjoy something , I'm not going to be min maxing habit , stacking what I'm doing Right , you know , it just doesn't make sense . Like going outside and reading it . Yeah , I get vitamin D , I recognize that . But I just like being outside and I like reading .
Speaker 2I combine those things because they can go together . In the olden days they just called that relaxing .
Speaker 1Wow , that was a real slap to the face right there . Yeah , it was a wake up call . I'm addicted .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think you need to take a long look in the mirror and say clarky boy , am I just looking for terms to apply to things I do in my life ? That I just enjoy doing well .
Speaker 1No , that's only one example . Most of the other stuff is like mindless , stupid stuff that I have to do . I hate hate .
Speaker 2Okay , but that's different . That's different . No one likes I mean , driving is fun , but like , no one likes traffic . That's why we listen to podcasts when we drive . But like it doesn't have to be a thing , we don't have to create an Instagram hashtag about it , we don't have to do it . Do they make hashtags on Instagram ? I honestly don't know .
Speaker 1I just put those two words together , okay are you maxing instagram right now ? I haven't used instagram in like a decade , so I have no , I , I don't even touch linkedin anymore .
Speaker 2Don't touch it . I don't touch anything . You're missing out better that way it's getting better on . My happiness increases tenfold when I don't look at things on the internet just at all . It's amazing like even even reddit . Like is my , that's my place , but like I try and go to like just the subreddits I like , because the second I see something about the news or about the world or politics , I'm just like damn it . Oh , why is that ? Why is that clark ?
Speaker 1ignorance is bliss , truth , truth . I agree with that .
Speaker 2It's like I'd rather just not know yeah , and make my life .
Speaker 1I don't want to stress about something stupid that's going on in the world and you could argue like you should be aware , you need to know everything that's going on , but also , at the same time , it's like you don't you need to . You need to manage where your energy goes we are ants .
Speaker 2We are ants just like in bugs life and we do have the power and we could take down the grasshoppers if we wanted to , but right now we kind of like the grasshopper situation and we don't really feel the need to . You know , team together as ants . In fact , we hate lots of ants , even though they all have six legs , a head , thorax and an abdomen , an antennae . We're all ants together , ants strong together , but we don't care . Let's feed the grasshoppers and I'm going to stick my head in the anthill and just do the things I enjoy and I'll probably die that way , and I think I'm going to be a lot happier dying that way than to pretend like I could somehow rally the ants together by finding a circus troop of bugs to convince them that we're warriors , when actually it's a circus troop . Bugs Life truly one of the greatest movies ever made , even though it is a direct copy of Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai .
Speaker 1Oh , I actually didn't know that Interesting . I'm going to look that up .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's great , great , lots of copies of Seven Samurai , magnificent Seven . Also a Seven Samurai , another one they just pop up , you know . But Bugs Life's a good one , bugs Life's the best one .
Speaker 1You think back to the movies you watch and like the deeper meanings and you're actually like that was actually pretty profound . Yeah , it's a cartoon animated movie with some pretty bad jokes , but it's pretty profound the underlying meaning Talking about Shrek .
Speaker 2Talking about Shrek . Do you remember in the hit classic cinema shrek when all-stars playing in the beginning by the band smash mouth and he pushes all the turds out of the log ? I just love that scene as a kid .
Speaker 1It's great it was so , it was rich , it was so rich . You're're like do you remember those movies ? Like when you saw those start . You're like this is going to be a banger , Like you got so pumped as a kid .
Speaker 2I've seen this DVD 17 times and I am just as excited as I've ever been watching this movie , you see this . Paramount logo .
Speaker 1It's a Paramount logo start and I'm like let's freaking go .
Speaker 2You didn't need to have it stacked back then you could just sit down with Shrek , the DVD , and you were in for a two hour magical experience . Life was good , Life was great . You might finish Shrek , you might go to the extras and be like I'm going to watch so many special features and then when I'm done I'm going to start Shrek over again . And things were really good . Things were really good . Things were really good . Then Let me tell you the happiness index from that childhood perspective with the Shrek DVD .
Speaker 1Oh , can't compete you know this is why I don't enjoy video games anymore . It used to be like you enjoy video games because you know you get to just kind of like roam and go on side quests and just have fun . There was no like oh , I'm wasting time right now , I could be spending on something else . Adulting sucks , that's what I think we're saying Like then you realize I could be spending this time doing something else , or I'm getting fat , like I need to start working out more , and then you got to sacrifice game time and then ultimately , you end up not enjoying playing games at all . That's me .
Speaker 2I don't know how you get there , cause for me , games are literally the thing I do to relax the mind . It's like oh , this is . I play more games as an adult than as a child because I need them more as an adult than I did as a child . I need them , I need that escape the only .
Speaker 1They're lifeblood going back to our oh yeah do you want to ? Okay , I was just going to go on a rant . You need to start this thing because this might never turn into a topic , so you go ahead speaking of escape , as we hit the 21 minute mark in this episode .
Speaker 2Hey , guess what , clark , what ? What we're writing a book are we have we started ? We are we started ? Yes , both have , I think , contributed a page to a book and some total . And we had a meeting about it . We actually had a meeting about the corporate strategy book that we're going to be writing . And guess what , clark ? What ? We're going to need the help of everyone to make this thing great . So , for the listeners out there , we're trying to build something that's going to cover not just the first few months of your work experience , but everything leading up to it looking for the job , kind of identifying your key strengths , your weaknesses , what kind of work you should be doing . It's a holistic investigation into the starting and ultimately beginning of the job . We're going to call it Corporate Strategy Volume 1 , the search for the great job . It's going to have art by Dr Seuss in it , repurposed . We're bringing it back . No , I was just seeing a clock .
Speaker 1I was kind of like where are you going with this ? These are not things I remember discussing .
Speaker 2There's going to be no art in this book whatsoever , but what there is going to be is testimonials from our Discord community . So if you're not in the Discord community every time , like what are you doing ? Open the show notes , click the link tree , join the Discord , get in there . It's a good place , but we're going to create a channel . It'll be specifically about this book and , as we write the book , we'd actually like to give you shout outs and allow you to fill in some of the blanks that we have when it comes to our own experience . So keep your eyes peeled for that . But for our topic today , clark actually had the really solid idea of talking through one of the first sections in our book , so let's do that , yeah , yum game .
Speaker 1Yeah . This is a really exciting passion project for us and it kind of goes back to what we wanted to do all along , where corporate strategy originated . It's like , man , we wish we could go back in time and help our younger selves in the corporate world be more successful , be happier , earn more money all the things that we wish . There was like something to go , you know , off of a guide , and I think , as we started this podcast , we don't want something like serious folding your arms , leaning on a wall , like all this corporate nonsense that's out there . We're both doing it right now . We're both leaning against walls . We want something that's like sarcastic and funny and like that will actually be relatable , because everybody , at the end of the day , we're all humans , we're not these corporate drones that are out there . So we wanted to put this together as another form of something that we can educate people on and hopefully will be a really good resource for everybody out there that does use it .
Speaker 2So we talked about a lot of this stuff in this book on the pod . So we're like we should collect all this and kind of re put it back out there . So we're going to use a few episodes of the podcast to talk about some of the topics that will be in the book , to help us refresh ourselves and to fill in the outline which we have started to build . I'm pumped .
Speaker 1Yeah , unless you're that awesome listener who I think it was like two months ago joined the discord and they were like hey , I binge listened to 70 of your past episodes . Yeah , unless you're them , and you just want like a concise book that puts this all together in kind of our tone of voice and you guys can contribute to it . I think this is the best way to do it . So I'm super excited . So where do we start ?
Speaker 2I mean , the thing that I would really love for us to talk about is when we get to the introduction , our first real chapter is on everybody has to work , and we talk a little bit about the . Actually , I guess technically it's the third chapter . It's after everybody has to work . It's what do you want to do versus what can you do and like as a as a discussion topic . I don't think we've actually talked about this one much on the pod before . Yeah , we haven't touched much about like job seeking , job hunting .
Speaker 2One of my favorite books that I ever read in the self-help category is the unsettled art of not giving a fuck , which I hope doesn't get us listed as an explicit podcast , but we'll see . We'll see if that triggers any of the filters . Um , that's the actual title of the book , but they make this really great reference really helped me understand what I want to do and how I want to do it , because he talks about specifically everyone wants to be a rock star until they realize you have to learn how to play an instrument . You have to be really good at playing an instrument . Do you want to put in the time every day to play that instrument as well as you need to . Well , not only do you have to do that , you have to go on tours . Do you want to spend 70% of your year in a bus going from location to location ? You know managing your instrument , performing , you know doing all these exhaustive tasks . It's like no . I like the idea of being famous and being a rock star , but I don't actually like the idea of having to do the rock star work .
Speaker 2And that breakdown can be applied to a lot of things , and I think what we can do in our book is take that but make it more evaluative for freshers , especially freshers who've maybe never had jobs before . Identify where they need to self-evaluate , to say like , hey , I have a degree in sociology . All around me are various jobs , none of which really call for my degree . How do I actually find out what I want to do ? How do I find what I need to do and , like , apply for those jobs to get where I'm going ?
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , it's funny you bring up that book
Career Realism and CAC Evaluation
Speaker 1. It's been just a topic that keeps on recurring . There's a few episodes the Golden Handcuff episode capitalist correspondent Alex Verstappen came on and basically a lot of the episode is exactly about that of like breaking it down into be realistic of what it would take to achieve that thing you think you want , and then it makes it much easier to rationalize . Okay , you know , I'm not let down with myself because I'm not doing that thing . I just realized I don't want to make the sacrifices I need to do to get to that thing and therefore I'm happier where I'm at now because I have thought about it that way and so I think the book does .
Speaker 1You know it has a ton of other things like that , but I totally agree and I think there is a realism . It's like you have to factor in as you're thinking about what can you do before you apply , based on your education , for a lot of different careers and roles , based on your location or lack of education , Lack of education , right yeah lack of education or lack of education , your location in the world , like where are you right now ?
Speaker 1Some of the options might not even be there for you , and I think all this to say . You know , as we kind of talk about it , it kind of sounds like we're being downers , especially for those freshers out there . But it's more about being realistic . Not that you shouldn't shoot for the stars and live your dreams . If that's truly the only thing that's going to make you happy , like you should go do that . But just think about the sacrifices and the consequences , both positive and negative , of what it's going to take to get there . Think about the journey that most people take to get where you want . Is that something you really want to do ? And if the answer is still yes , like please , by all means , go do that thing . This is not about crushing dreams .
Speaker 1But for those people who realize , yeah , I like the idea of the thing , I don't like the idea of being a starving artist for 20 years to get to the thing , like I want to have a family , I want to be able to , you know , live a pretty comfortable life , like all those things .
Speaker 1It's like you have to factor that into your decision when you choose , what do I really want to do ? And so I think a lot of the people like Bruce mentioned where it's like everybody has to work . I think we have to think about from the beginning what are your motivations Like , what are your interests and how does that kind of intersect with , maybe , where you want to look for jobs , either at a certain location , certain company , whatever it is , or you know , in a certain field where you're like I don't really care about the company , I just really like doing this one specific function . So I think it's going to be a really interesting thing that we need to think about , like how do we break that down to help people and guide them before they even just start mass applying ?
Speaker 2I think one thing that we can definitely write about and talk about here you know , in the second chapter we've outlined CAC , which we love CAC because it works right , like it's one of the few things we've created in this podcast that I think has really lasted the test of time over 150 plus episodes is culture , autonomy , challenge , compensation . If , as a fresher , you can identify the CAC that interests you and then look at , guesstimate the alignment to the job you want . So like , let's say , you know you're a fresher and you want to , you know , be a baker like that's your , that's your big dream jobs . I want to go bake desserts , for you know , be a baker like that's your , that's your big dream jobs . I want to go bake desserts , for you know a local dessert shop .
Speaker 2Well , you know the compensation is probably not going to be that great right Cause you know any service industry food job is just that's the way it is right . So you have to say , like , on my CAC , compensation has to be low . Your autonomy is not going to be very high either . You're going to be baking and creating things that are likely on the menu for that restaurant and you got to stick to that and you're gonna have to do it . Challenge is going to be high . Culture is going to vary based on like you know the shop and where you want to go . But if you think about , like your CAC and what you actually want , in alignment or even in contrast to the job of baking , you might be able to say you know what ? Actually I care way too much about money or autonomy to do this job , so I need to look at the skills I have . I need to look at the CAC I want and think about other places where I could apply this kind of ability with the outcome I'm seeking .
Speaker 1Yeah , and it doesn't need to be like months of research but no doing simple things like let me check out what the average salary is for this type of role and then , yeah , you realize , ooh , like 40 K a year . What does my life look like if I'm living off 40 K a year ?
Speaker 2And is that something I really ?
Speaker 1want and that might gear you know the perspective that you have before you go and apply and you know , really try to chase that dream it's .
Speaker 1It's going to be kind of tough , probably financially , in most places in the United States at least you know if you want to go down that path and I think that's where it really comes to visualize , like , what you want your life to be like in the next five years , 10 years and so on . You want to , yeah , have a ton of money , be working something that's fulfilling to whatever the broader world or solving a hard problem . Do you want to just live comfortably off a modest paycheck but also be part of a company that you really like , where you work and you like the people around you ? It's like you have to kind of visualize what does that look like for me and how is my life going to change in the next five to 10 years ? And then evaluate your CAC for looking at those jobs , doing simple searches on salary , being able to go on blind and see what are anonymous people in the company saying about the company culture . All that is going to help factor into your decision for those roles and the companies that you apply to .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think you made a good point too , which is the long-term portion . And this is what I wasn't thinking about is , you know , as a fresher , yes , you can find a CAC that really aligns with you , but chances are that job is not going to be . I mean , I won't say it's not gonna be great , but you know , like you know , you and I started as quality assurance engineers , which is not the most desirable thing , but our CAC was great at that job , right . Like you know , not everyone wants to do that job , but it has a really nice CAC aligned to it . You know , in the baker's example , maybe your long-term goal is actually to run your own shop and you have to start and get the experience in a local bakery . So factor that in . Too Obviously , cac doesn't really consider the long-term as part of that equation , and maybe that's something we need to think about when it comes to , like , the initial investigation for onboarding your career is hey , sometimes you got to shovel crap for five years before you can actually go off and mine for gold .
Speaker 2You know , like it's just , it's a , it's a . There's a progression curve that has to occur and you need to be willing to put in the time , or put up with a bad CAC score to get to the dream job , plus the CAC you're looking for .
Speaker 1Right , yeah , we often reference CAC as like the current state workplace happiness score . We don't really look at it from like a what do I want my CAC to be ? We look at it as like this is the weight of how much I value one thing or the other , but we don't really look at it from that regard of like , in five years , what do I want that to be ? And obviously that changes over time . So that's , of course , a factor is like you need to constantly be reevaluating what you want that to be . But I think it is an interesting factor to be like . This is these are the type of things I think I'm going to have to value in five to 10 years , if this is where I'm , if this is where I'm headed . And so , yeah , it could be money related , it could be just culture , or it could be challenge , whatever it might be . If you want to be a lifetime learner , if you want to be a baker , whatever it is , you've got to factor that in . That's a really interesting point .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think we'll have to do some more diagnosing on that specific thing as we build this out . And again , if this is something that the listener listeners interested in and you have advice that you wouldn't mind giving us a snippet of , again we want to give credit . We just want to pull from all these sources . So it's not just Bruce and Clark the talking , the talking heads making this , this section . So be sure to join the discord and put it on that channel . If you have any ideas , yeah , what else ?
Speaker 1Clark . What else in that initial section ? Yeah , one thing you know when it comes to applying , it can be really disheartening . You know , for jobs , for locations , like it takes a lot of effort and energy , and especially like when you're when you're new , getting those rejections is hard because you're like man , am I ever going to get , you know , just an interview .
Speaker 1And going back to you know the , the subtle art of not giving an F . It's like sometimes you know you have this dream idea in your mind of like the role , the company and like you always are applying for that , but at the end of the day it just might not work out . You know it could just be One you're applying too late , they already have somebody in mind and it's just . It's okay . If that's the case , maybe you just need to take a stepping stone to get there and try again later , when the timing is better , when you have the right skillset or whatever it is , and then eventually somehow you broke through . It may have not been exactly what you're hoping for , but at the end of the day maybe it was a really good move because it got you that stepping stone to get where you want to go .
Speaker 1Or it was at the right company , just in a different role , and you're starting off lower than you want or whatever , but all it took was getting your foot in the door at some place really great and then you can figure out how to maneuver within the company to do the thing you want to do at that company , and so it'd be really interesting if anybody has any personal stories around that , but I hear that all the time of .
Navigating Corporate Cultures and Work-Life Balance
Speaker 1If you have a company that you really love to work for , sometimes it's more important to get your foot in the door . It doesn't matter if the position is the dream position you want . You should try to just go for anything you can get , especially as a fresher . Do a bunch of roles so you learn a bunch of things , and then you're already in the company , so it's much easier to get the future role you want by making those connections .
Speaker 2I'm thinking back to our guest episode with Monroe and her journey on the steps she took to get to where she is today and just some of the ways that she had to work through that situation . Like , if you have not listened to that episode I don't know the number off the top of my head , but I believe it's just Interview with Monroe . Look that up in your feed A really great story of growth and accomplishment over time and how you can get there . And you also just brought up Clark . If you really want to work for a company , you might just do whatever it takes to get your foot in the door . One of the lines we put in the outline to the book is do you want to join a cult ? And I think it is worth talking about that for a second , because when we were outlining this over Boba Tea , as Clark and I often do , one of the things was like look , you know , you can go work at Big Corp , like Clark and I did . Or you can go work for Google at big corp . You're going to work nine to five , you're going to get paid well and you're going to shut the laptop and you're going to go home . You go work at Google . You're going to show up at seven . You're gonna have breakfast there . You're going to work your brains out until lunch . You're going to have lunch there . You're going to work your brains out until dinner . You can have dinner there . You're going to stay after dinner . You're going to be there till nine o'clock at night and you are part of that . I mean , they'll call it a family , they'll call it an ecosystem , but in reality , you're in a paid cult , right ? Like ? They want you to think like a Google person . They want you to dress like a Google person . They want you to look like a Google person , act like a Google person when you are outside of work , those rare moments . They want you to exhibit the Google energy and if that sounds great to you , fantastic . I think there's . You know that's going to shine through in the interview process If you apply to go to one of those places .
Speaker 2The passion is really a big part of getting those jobs . They want the people Disney , apple , google they want the fans , right , because they know they've got you . They can pay you less , they can work you more and you're going to stay there because you love the company . And like , I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a corporate shill in this way , like , if that's what you really want to do , go do it . But I think , understanding the sacrifices that have to be made , like you cannot go , start at one of these places and also say , and I'm going to keep , you know , skiing on the weekends and I'm going to have two kids , and it's like you're going to be miserable and it's you're not gonna be able to balance all of those plates . So , like the cult lifestyle is not for everyone it's it's for those that are truly invested in the company .
Speaker 1Absolutely yeah . A lot of bonuses to doing that too . It's like it's a great name to have in your resume . You're probably going to be surrounded by a bunch of really smart people all working towards that goal , which is it's fun . You know , it's fun when you're all working towards something that you really enjoy , but you have to make sacrifices of other things . And if your goal is , yeah , to start a family and have kids probably not the place you want to immediately go to I think it's going to be really hard to be able to keep up there with the expectations and the people around you . And I've also heard you know , I've worked with some people who've worked there and I've talked to some people as well . Sometimes you can find that niche of the company where you can kind of just lay back and relax and not really do anything . It's almost like the show Silicon Valley , where they go to the rooftop and people kind of forget about them . That can happen , yeah .
Speaker 1So those are also a lot of things you have to think about . It's like you might be able to find that , but there's no guarantee . I think you know 90% of people are probably doing what Bruce is saying right now , and you've got to be willing to understand that , because you're going there for a reason . I think Amazon is another example . It's like , yeah , the culture there is , you do nothing but work . It's results . Like , yeah , yeah , the culture there is , you do nothing but work , it's results . It's , you know , all measured and if you're not working at that level , you will likely be cut . And so you've got to realize you're there to make that sacrifice , either for the money , for a short period of time , for the name on your resume , like that's all valid reasons to do it .
Speaker 2When we were in engineering , one of our friends told me once that go look up any Netflix engineer on LinkedIn any one of them and guarantee you they will have two years or less experience , because it's a churn and burn environment , right Like . You go there to get Netflix on your resume and then you get out as soon as humanly possible because you cannot live a life and work at a company like that and be happy , right Like . Obviously there are going to be those , those few , that just really thrive in that environment and there's nothing wrong with that , right ? I think again , this goes back to understanding your CAC . There are certain people that want to live in that office and they want to code and work and grind all day and they enjoy that and that's what they want to do and they're getting paid money to do something they enjoy . There's nothing wrong with that at all .
Speaker 2But I think you do have to take your realism pills and say , like , is this what I want ? Or do I want to get paid ? Well , so I can do the hobbies I want to do on the weekend , so I can have a family , so I can go kayaking or do whatever the heck it is you like doing Something's got to get cut . You can't have it stack jobs and life , so you have to . You have to figure out your CAC and and apply for the place that I think is going to respect what you want to have as an outcome , both in in work and outside of work .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think visualization is such a powerful tool and , to be honest with you , I'm not great at it . But people who can like athletes , artists , all that stuff , like they visualize what they want to do , like how's the performance going to be , how does it feel Like , really try to put themselves in that mindset . And they don't have all the answers right , like they don't know what's going to happen , live out there , but they know what success looks like and they think about that . I'm like how do I do ? Amazing , and I think that is something really important to do when you're a fresher and I certainly didn't do it , but I think it is important to be like okay , if I were to get this job , how does it feel , you know , am I enjoying it ? And when I evaluate my CAC , like that day-to-day that I'm walking in , is it something that I'm going to do ?
Speaker 1And a quick personal note is like at one point I had the opportunity to join a really good company and one of my mentors was basically telling me it's like sometimes , you know , you just got to get your foot in the door .
Speaker 1Maybe this is a really good opportunity to do it , but the role was doing more project management stuff , not product management stuff .
Speaker 1And I was like , okay , let me really think about this . Like am I going to enjoy doing that , even if it's at this company for like roughly the same pay and I'm going to have to do it for a while before I get to the thing I want ? And the answer was no . It's like I'd much rather stay doing what I'm doing now in the role that I'm in , then go do that thing , even though it could eventually lead to it so and who knows , it's not guaranteed If I went there and there was never a role doing product management versus project management , then I might just be stuck with that until I decided to leave . So it's kind of sitting down and really thinking about what are the trade-offs of doing this and I think that's a really important tip is like visualize how you want to feel , how you want it to look like , how you want your life to look like , and then look at the opportunity and evaluate it against that .
Speaker 2And you can do that Like I do want to point out , like I literally did that in my current job right Like I left a role that for the most part I liked in solutions marketing to take a technical marketing job , which technical marketing is not nearly as interesting as solutions marketing , but I knew I could get back there and not only did I get the title I wanted , I also got the position I wanted a year and a half later and the team that I wanted and everything else . But it just took work and a visualization of what I needed to do to accomplish that . And then the reminding of folks like , hey , I did all of this , I should be here now and I am , so like you can do it . But it's just like Clark said , you have to be willing to put in the work and potentially deal with things you don't want to deal with to get there .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely yeah , yeah . These are all things that I think are in a form of really nice start of this book for freshers or people that are just looking to make a change , Like if someone's going just like Monroe's story , going from military to entrepreneurship to eventually like big corporations everybody has their own unique path and I think this starting this first volume , if you will will be a really good guiding light for people who are either starting over , going into corporations for the first time or just being a fresher with education without education doesn't matter .
Speaker 1It's kind of a good starting point for whoever's going that direction . But I think the broader vision is like there will be multiple volumes of all this information , all the great people we've had on the community itself that come together that will tell the next chapter . You know , beyond just your 30 , 60 , 90 days , what's happening next , how do I go beyond ? How do I even like prep for retiring or whatever it might be . I think hopefully one day we'll build that together by not only just living it but also bring on really great people who have died before us and we can make something really awesome that we can share with everybody .
Speaker 2Yeah , and that is the goal is to make something that's actually we're not trying to become billionaires on this book , right , like ? The goal of the book is to help people . So you know , that's why we call on y'all is help us help them
Podcast Update and Star Wars Discussion
Speaker 2. If you have stories or if you think you've heard this episode and like , hey , I actually have a really great story , I think it'd be great to come on the podcast and share as a guest , that's great too , like we can take that and we can turn that into a testimonial inside of the book itself . So , either way , we're going to create a channel inside of the Discord . It'll be under the CS , the podcast sub channel directory . It'll be all about the book and there'll be a great place to talk about this episode and future episodes where we talk about book material , and we'll also give updates on our status and progress and I'm sure we'll share some early drafts with y'all as well . But one of our goals for this year , we're going to get it done one page at a time .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's going to be great . I'll be honest . Writing that one page , I was like , okay , yeah , this book might be shorter than I thought . I thought that would fill up a lot more pages just by rambling , I guess not no , no , give it time .
Speaker 2Give it time . Trust . As someone who writes , you will be shocked the the first bits are the hardest and then , once you start getting rolling , you'll find it's like , oh , we have way too much we need to to cut , cut , cut , cut , cut , cut .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm excited .
Speaker 2It's all going to be really good . Yeah , I already read your part .
Speaker 1I was like , oh yeah , this is going to be awesome .
Speaker 2It's going to be fun . Yeah , I made some stylistic decisions in the intro , so it'll be good . It'll be a good setup . I'm excited for the listener discord participation . I think it's gonna be really fun . We love y'all , we appreciate y'all and we hope that this is an exciting opportunity for all of us . So do let us know what you're thinking in that discord . You can get there by going to the link tree . Also , things in the discord . We have not had a . What do you mean ? Or is it me , or is it corporate in a minute ?
Speaker 1so what I need y'all to do it's been .
Speaker 2It's been quiet in the discord and I think that's partially our fault . But what I need y'all to do is create a meme , either based on this episode or the last one , or or go nuts on the uh , the capitals correspondent , alex Restrepo episode . Just meme that to death . Go on . Meme him . He loves to be memed . Meme that man . Put it in the what Do you Meme channel and then go to Is it Me or Is it Corporate ?
Speaker 2If you have a corporate confession , if you want us to identify like completely anonymous , if you go forward , slash confess type in your confession , you'll be able to completely anonymously submit something . We'll read it out loud . We'll diagnose whether this is a you problem or a corporate problem . They're really fun to talk through and I think it actually helps other people realize that we're all in this terrible corporate boat together . So go in there and put one in there if you got one . Otherwise , share the pod , rate the pod , send the pod to your enemies , send the pod to your friends , send the pod to Clark . I don't think he listens . So we need to get it out there , clark . What else is there ?
Speaker 1We're pod racing baby , you said pod so many times that it was just stuck in my head .
Speaker 2Don't say that . Don't say that we already talked about Shrek . You know , one of my favorite scenes in any movie of all time , like top five movie scenes ever made . And yes , for the few people out there who appreciate good cinema , don't be like they've been . Her did it first . I know been her did it first . George Lucas did it better and he did it with fricking pod racing . Okay , so one of the greatest scenes in cinema history . It's perfect . I wouldn't change a single fricking thing , even the land and .
Speaker 1Skywalker going it's working , it's working . That whole movie is irrelevant .
Speaker 2No need for it . Jar Jar Binks getting his face stuck in the laser beams , but the whole movie . Just skip it . That movie is great . That movie is in my top three Star Wars movies . I'm not ashamed to say that it's number three but it's still top three . I love that movie .
Speaker 1I'll be honest .
Speaker 2I I love that movie .
Speaker 1I'll be honest , I do love that movie too , just because of this nostalgia . But yeah , when you really look back at it you're like this didn't really need to happen . We will .
Speaker 2We're gonna do a spinoff pod that's gonna be called corporate star warsy and clark and I are gonna re-watch every star wars movie , including the tv shows , and we're gonna do a full diagnostic on why the Phantom Menace is critically underrated and deserves the second chance . So we'll we'll have to watch all of them and do an episode on each of them . In fact , it's probably worthwhile for us to do maybe four episodes per movie , just so we can really give it the time .
Speaker 1We're editing all this out . We got to cut the show . We could not make this many commitments .
Speaker 2In fact , I'm saying screw the book . I think Star Wars Pod sounds way more interesting . What about you , listener ? We're going to put up a poll in the chat . Would you rather help us write a book , or we're going to start a Kickstarter for Curb and Star Warsy the podcast . We're going to change the name of our podcast . No , no , no . We're starting a new podcast , second podcast $20 more a month . So I'm going to go poor on podcasts . See another strategy .
Speaker 1We just no , no . If we convert this one , they'll never know . We'll just naturally transition them to this Star Wars podcast . Oh , we have the listeners yeah , we already have them and they come in . They're gonna be like they have 150 episodes . Yeah , there's a lot of that .
Speaker 2You know , like we really I gotta catch up . And then like 20 episodes in there , like they don't talk about star wars on this at all .
Speaker 1It's all how it works . When do they get to the star wars ? It's really just for the seo . That's what the star wars is for .
Speaker 2Yeah , I hate when . I hate when things just do that in general , like I'm gonna , what's it ? It's um , there's a word for it's . It's not trend jacking , it's um a clickbait , isn't it clickbait ? Yeah , it's , it's clickbait , but there's actually a name for when you buy a domain or a thing so that you can launch your new thing off of the marketing success of that thing . There's a word for it . It's not hijacked , but it's like that Big switch .
Dog Excitement and Star Wars Discussion
Speaker 1I don't know what's happening over in that corner . Do you hear this ? I don't hear it , but I can see it .
Speaker 2My pit boxer mix just head-butted through the door , came to my office , stuck her face up to the window window and is like intensity growling oh . I guess she's so excited for corporate Star Wars . She's telling the world she's like go down .
Speaker 1She heard the . She heard you talking about . She's now coming in . Let's get this going .
Speaker 2I also agree Phantom Menace is a great movie .
Speaker 1Oh , we got to end this before we make any more promises . This is getting out of hand .
Speaker 2Good call . Well , as always , we love you the listener , we love you the Clark , and I think that's everything . As always , I'm Bruce , he's squirreling now . You got him , you got me , you got me , you got me , he got me . Hey , you're on mute . We'll see you next week .
