Bruce: 0:14

Welcome back to Corporate Strategy, the podcast. That could have been an email. I'm Bruce and Clark is out. We cannot wait for his return, but for now, I am joined by my wife, sarah, who is a social coach, and we thought we'd have an interesting episode today where we talk about social practices in the workplace and just get some of your social tips for our listeners.

Sarah: 0:40

Yes, thank you for having me here.

Bruce: 0:43

Thanks for joining.

Sarah: 0:44

This is the most formal we've ever been, by the way.

Bruce: 0:47

I don't think we've ever been this formal. I'm not even this formal with Clark generally.

Sarah: 0:50

We don't speak this way regularly.

Bruce: 0:52

I was like hello ma'am, Welcome to the podcast.

Sarah: 0:56

Yeah, so thanks for that introduction. I am a self-labeled social coach, yes, and people will ask me okay, well, what do you do? And I say I teach people how to communicate better in professional and casual settings for the purposes of growing their confidence. Some people want to make new friends. Some people want to know how to be less stressed out about interacting with their coworkers.

Bruce: 1:22

I ask you for social advice all the time. Yeah, this is not something that just certain people with low social skills have. This is something. What you practice is for the betterment of all society.

Sarah: 1:35

Yes, exactly, I've had clients that have came to me after having been in their own respective work field for a set amount of time because they want to learn how to. I had someone. I worked with them for several weeks. He wanted to know how to be a better storyteller at work because he said I go to all these marketing events, I go to all these networking events and some people are really funny and they're really charismatic and they tell really good stories. So I want to do that, and so we came up with a routine and we came up with a formula to teach him how to be a better storyteller, and it was super successful.

Bruce: 2:10

How often would you say your clients are asking specifically about work and socialization in the workplace?

Sarah: 2:16

One out of every four.

Bruce: 2:18

Wow, that's pretty common.

Sarah: 2:19

I just worked with a woman last week from Argentina and she worked in a spa and she wanted to learn how to speak better on the phone and think quicker, and how to have conversations flow better with people that she was trying to network with, and how to be less stressed out when she'd have to talk to clients on the phone. And I told and this is something that I tell every single one of my clients that socializing and being successful at conversation is less about what you say and more about how the other person feels when they're interacting with you. And this is true for casual friendships, this is true for professional relationships. For casual friendships. This is true for professional relationships. Very rarely am I going to go home and fixate on.

Sarah: 3:09

Bill was really weird. His conversation style was slow, he wasn't thinking quickly, his responses weren't great. I'm not going to think that I'm going to say, wow, I had a really fun time talking to Bill at work. He made me feel listened to, he made me feel seen. I felt happy and entertained when I spoke to him. That's what we take away from our interactions. How does this other person make me feel? Not so much? Oh, I don't know what to say, and so I think when I tell people that they immediately have less stress about it because I'll have a lot of clients wanting to know I want to hack conversation. I want to find out a way to just always have something in mind and always have something at the tip of my tongue and always have some really response. But it's not really about that at all.

Bruce: 4:03

Right.

Sarah: 4:04

It is about what you, the vibe you set for the conversation, how, how you make the people around you that you're interacting with feel that's what they're going to remember.

Bruce: 4:15

I was on a call today with one of our HR representatives because we're going through the review process of of our teams for managers and one of the slides they had it was kind of cheesy, I don't. I'm not going to get the full quote right, but it was basically they're not going to remember. You know, a year from now they're not going to remember what you say, they're going to remember how they felt after you said it, which I was, like you know, cheesy, but true, it's true.

Bruce: 4:37

Delivering feedback, delivering any kind of information, it's an emotional experience, exactly, and long after the memory of the conversation is gone, all that's left is how I feel about that person.

Sarah: 4:48

Right? Why do you think charismatic people are so well beloved and they get away with so much stuff? Not that I'm advocating for anyone listening to this podcast to become one of those people you know, one of those like hey, she you know, say whatever you want what kind of job would you get where you'd be able to talk like? That I I on a detective, a pi, you know yeah, like.

Bruce: 5:11

Oh, I'm investigating a case. I'm on the police yeah, hey, sweetheart let me get to the bottom of this I'm gonna cut corners here.

Sarah: 5:19

You're not gonna report me because I'm so freaking charismatic. All, All of us know someone like that. I used to work for someone like that. Okay, he said the most un-HR things to me and I laughed because he was charismatic as heck.

Bruce: 5:36

So and I think what you just said is actually something you've talked about with me in the past before is there's a difference between socializing and being charismatic, or being able to socialize, and be charismatic.

Sarah: 5:46

Can you break that?

Bruce: 5:47

down for the listeners.

Sarah: 5:49

So charisma, or, as some of your listeners might say, depending on their age range, the riz.

Bruce: 5:55

The riz yeah.

Sarah: 5:56

If you have the riz.

Bruce: 5:58

Yeah, some people have it, some people don't.

Sarah: 6:00

Some people are just naturally charismatic.

Bruce: 6:02

Right.

Sarah: 6:02

They have these very welcoming people, think, extrovert personalities where you're able to go to a room and walk up to anybody and talk to them, and that is a real talent. I think that's something not everyone has the capability of doing. You don't need that to be successful, though it's appropriate for some people to be like that. And then when you think of those people, you think, oh yeah, now that guy is great, he can talk to anybody. That's fantastic. But you don't have to be charismatic in order to be socially successful.

Bruce: 6:39

Right, I think a lot of people think I need to be a charismatic leader to be successful in corporate. Yes, and that's why you have a lot of people think.

Sarah: 6:46

I need to be a charismatic leader to be successful in corporate? Yes, and that's why you have a lot of these LinkedIn bros that are doing the whole. Like you know, wake up at five bros. Rise and grind Be charismatic, you know like that's not how people, that's not how regular people interact, though.

Bruce: 6:59

Well, it can be a turnoff.

Sarah: 7:01

Exactly, especially if you're trying to emulate something that you think is successful. Well, it can be a turnoff, exactly Especially if you're trying to emulate something that you think is successful. When we think of people that we enjoy talking to in our lives personally, think about it. Why do you enjoy talking to the people on your list of people that you like having around? It's because they make you feel at ease. Right, there's some sort of genuine Comfort, exactly Right. There's some sincerity behind them. You can tell you're not acting. They're not putting on a show for you. They're not putting on this. You know corporate ceo. You know club guy. Look, I don't know, you know what kind of. I saw something on instagram. It was like 36 year old ceo hitting on you. He's like hey, mariah, I just laid off 15% of my workforce. What's up, man?

Sarah: 7:47

You know like you're not trying to be that Well I think a lot of those guys try to do that because they see these figures that get really successful and they're like oh, I need to act just like him.

Bruce: 8:01

And what happens is because I've seen this. I've seen this with people. They look at a figure that they want to emulate and be like, and when they emulate it and act like that person which might be natural for that person they're trying to emulate, but for them, it comes off as incredibly it's the opposite. Like I'm immediately uncomfortable. Yes, I don't trust you. This is cringe and I want to avoid spending time around you.

Sarah: 8:24

Yes, trust you, this is cringe and I want to avoid spending time around you. Yes, and what's unfortunate about that situation is I have a lot of clients who will come to me with already having read a number of self-help books, they've seen a number of videos about how to be more confident, how to be more charismatic, how to be more outgoing, and they're hearing it from a lot of these different sources that don't have their best interest in mind and, unfortunately, they get bad advice that I have to sort of untrain them from and I say, okay, we need to take a big step back here. Okay, because people are too focused on results. I want to be liked, I want to be successful, I want to be popular. I want everyone to feel at ease with me. You're focusing on results when I want to be liked. I want to be successful. I want to be popular. I want everyone to feel at ease with me. You're focusing on results when we really need to be taking several steps back. And what's comfortable for you? Right?

Sarah: 9:14

Socializing is a skill. There's a reason we call it social skills. It's like piano, it's like violin, it's like any sport you have to practice in order to get better. It will be awkward at the start, but no one's going to go home at the end of the day and really fixate on your faux pas. We don't do that to other people. I don't go home at the end of the day and fixate on some guy in the office being clumsy or flubbering his words. I might be obsessed with myself thinking oh my gosh, why did I say that? But very rarely. We don't do that with other people. They also don't do it with us.

Bruce: 9:49

I feel like the kind of people that do fixate on the faults of others are the kind of people that can never get ahead anyway, exactly so they're not the kind of people you need to worry about.

Sarah: 9:56

You don't want someone's opinion like that. It's not worthy of you.

Bruce: 10:00

So what would you recommend? You know everyone should at least do if they want to practice their social skills, like what's the baseline.

Sarah: 10:07

Speak out loud.

Bruce: 10:09

Speak out loud.

Sarah: 10:10

Talk to yourself all the time. If you, you know those people that just say whatever they have, like no filter.

Bruce: 10:18

Right New Yorkers.

Sarah: 10:19

And they get away with it.

Bruce: 10:21

Yeah, new.

Sarah: 10:21

Yorkers? They completely yes. New Yorkers, they just get away with it Like yorkers.

Bruce: 10:25

They completely yes, new yorkers, they just get away with it like, oh, this food is crap, like we, just when they say it. You're like, yeah, but you're from new york. You're like, oh yeah, we don't judge it.

Sarah: 10:32

We, you know, in common interaction, we think, oh, that's so rude. But new york is like, yeah, the food's crap, don't eat it. We're like, okay, we listen to them and we just no question no question people that have no filter.

Sarah: 10:46

They're really comfortable with themselves. Again, I'm not advocating for you to be no filter, don't take this the wrong way. I'm just pointing out the thing that those people have in common is they're very certain of themselves. A lot of those people they might have certain insecurities, but they're very familiar with the sound of their voice. They're very confident in expressing their opinion. They're very certain of what they like. They're not really too focused on oh, how is this going to come off because they're very, they're very confident with the sound of their own voice. And a lot of people that have problems speaking.

Sarah: 11:21

I work with a lot of shy clients. They're very timid and they're very uncertain and I tell them, I say you know what, when you're in the shower and you're shampooing your hair, just practice some introductions. Practice seeing it in your own voice. Hey, I'm Tom and I'm working here and I'm just trying to get out of my comfort zone and speak more. I always tell people the best thing you can do is be transparent. When you introduce yourself to someone and you are uncertain about yourself, maybe you don't have the highest confidence. Just be a little transparent about what your intentions are, up front.

Bruce: 11:58

Right, and I think one thing to add to that because Clark and I have talked about this in the past is in interviews, a lot of people will quickly give up. I'm nervous They'll say that out loud. Instead, what they should say is like I'm just excited to be here, so forgive me if I'm a little scatterbrained Like I'm just really excited to have this conversation. But, you can reframe that right, Because nervousness and excitement are the same thing.

Sarah: 12:20

Yes.

Bruce: 12:20

So I like what you're saying You're able to practice these conversations in the shower while you're cooking, while you're cleaning your house, right, and that can kind of help mentally prepare you for the real conversations you're going to have.

Sarah: 12:31

Exactly, I talk to myself all the time.

Bruce: 12:33

I know I hear it. I'm like what's that noise in the house?

Sarah: 12:35

And you say hello.

Bruce: 12:36

Hello, I say I'm talking to myself. I say okay, carry on.

Sarah: 12:40

Sometimes it's good to just rehearse aloud. The more comfortable you are with the sound of your voice, the more comfortable you're going to be speaking off the top of your mind. And you're just going to say whatever comes to your mind, and that's totally fine. Now, not everyone is like that. Again, I do not ever advocate for anyone to change their personality. I'm not going to be able to make an introvert an extrovert. I'm not going to be able to make an introvert an extrovert.

Bruce: 13:05

I'm not going to be able to vice versa. Right, but can you help an introvert feel more comfortable? Absolutely Right Speaking.

Sarah: 13:11

Because, guess what? Every single one of us is valued as we are Now. There are some things that we can improve on. There are some techniques we can learn. There are some go-to.

Sarah: 13:23

I teach my clients a lot of small talk techniques because a lot that's the number one thing everyone's like. I want to get better at small talk. I want to get better at just holding a conversation, and so we'll go through and I'll give them like a checklist. All right, we're going to start here, pull this out your pocket when you need to, but then, as the conversation goes along, these are the sort of things that you want to do in order to keep it flowing. But I don't ever tell anyone. You know what you need to be more loud, you need to look in the mirror and you need to go up and be assertive and shake someone's hand.

Sarah: 13:56

That's just not everybody, and I know some really wonderful people that I've worked with that have just been the absolute most calming people. They're so quiet and they're so nice and when I go to you know when I worked in law I'd go up to their desk and you know, the middle of a hectic day and it would be so peaceful. There's a tranquil person, a quiet woman, but that was her personality. But she was always very nice when she spoke to me. She's always very sweet and very welcoming. She wasn't nervous or shy to see me. She didn't want to speak to me or anything like that. She just had a nice, calming presence and that is acceptable. And so I don't think everyone has to be this big, boisterous, loud mouth in order to be successful, in order to be seen. You're perfectly valid as you are.

Sarah: 14:48

My point is to just make it easier for you to speak to people, so that the anxiety, there's no dread in the anticipation. Oh my gosh, I'm nervous about going in and talking to this person. I hate going to the workroom because I have to look at people in the eye and I want to take that away. I don't want to change who you are, I want to make it easier, and that is what I think. Unfortunately, a lot of people that look to self-help, they end up listening to some guy who doesn't know anything Tell them you need to change and you really don't. You just need to find what works for you, and that comes with just putting things into your own word, which is why I say recite it in the shower. Recite your introductions. Recite how you say hi to people in the shower while you're cooking. You know, get used to the sound of your own voice.

Bruce: 15:43

So you mentioned small talk and coming up with a list. What's the number one small talk intro you have?

Sarah: 15:49

Number one fail Like without fail. Everyone will have an answer to this and it is, and there's sort of a formula to it. So on Mondays and Tuesdays I say ask about the weekend, how was your weekend, mondays and Tuesdays? And then you go to Wednesday, thursday, friday, you say hey, you got anything fun planned this weekend. Oh, what are you up to this weekend? And the reason I use this is because everyone always has an answer.

Sarah: 16:20

When you ask questions to someone, the goal should be to get a response. You don't ever want to ask a yes or no question because it's just a dead end. Right? Hey, how are you doing today? Good, how about you? Yeah, I'm all right. So instead of saying that, I say how's your workload been this week? Are you keeping up with it? Oh, you know I'm managing. It's getting a little hard, but one of those is going to have a longer response and be more likely to give you more information about what that person's going through versus hey, you doing good today. Yeah, more information about what that person's going through versus hey, you doing good today. Yeah, you don't want it to dead end again with the weekend thing. You will always get a response and the cool thing about it is that people will generally drop things in their response that give you a little bit more insight into who they are right you say what are you doing this weekend?

Sarah: 17:09

oh, I'm going to the farmer's market, um, and then we might go see a movie on sunday. Oh, cool, what movie you're gonna go see? It leads to more conversation and that is why the weekend question is king for me, because you can use it all the time. Now you're not gonna ask someone three days in a row, I'm just saying this is like a regular question that you can ask to people, like twice a week you can use. Drop it on a Monday, freaking, drop it on Thursday. There you go, and then you can do it indefinitely.

Sarah: 17:40

You know, now you will get to a point where you learn enough about another person that you will be able to reference instead of hey, skip the weekend question, oh, hey, you seen any cool movies recently? Because now you know this person likes to go see movies. So the whole point of conversation is to hopefully learn a bit more about who you're interacting with in order to therefore bring up things that are relevant to them and get more success in your responses. Conversation is about finding things you have in common to sustain a conversation, and that's why usually, when you meet someone new, you try and get to that as soon as possible.

Bruce: 18:16

Right.

Sarah: 18:16

A lot of people say, oh, are you married? Do you have kids? Do you have pets? Where do you work? What do you do for fun? They're feeling you out because they're like I really need to find something in common with this person, and so that is why the weekend question is great is because it will usually give you some free insight into something that is relevant to them and hopefully get to a point where you can turn that little small talk into more meaningful conversations and networking as well. This is how you make friends at work. Right, you have to get to know the person. You can't just be superficial with people. People can tell. People can tell when you're talking. To get to know the person. You can't just be superficial with people. People can tell. People can tell when you're talking to them to checkbox something.

Bruce: 18:57

Right, it's. The classic Zoom question is how's the weather where you are? See, you know everyone, everyone, every call. Yeah, how's the weather? Oh, you're in Florida. How's the weather over there? It's hot. You know, like, how's the weather? Oh, you're in Florida, how's the weather over there? It's hot. You know, like it's the fallback question. But what I like about your question specifically, the reason I like that more, yours specifically, like what do you do last week and what are you doing this weekend, Then how's the weather, is when you have folks that say like, oh, are you married, do you have kids?

Sarah: 19:33

Those can be well like they seem innocuous, that can actually bring up bad emotions extremely intrusive right it is and you have no idea. Someone could have just freaking like their wife.

Sarah: 19:38

They just got divorced with a circus, you know the postman I didn't know that still happened, it's tragedy yeah, postman, stealing wives is just like you think that's a thing of the past, but it's still happening out there. It happened to goofy. It can happen to all of us. Happen to goofy, yeah, well, there's a thing of the past, but it's still happening out there.

Bruce: 19:52

It happened to Goofy. It can happen to all of us. It happened to Goofy, yeah, whoa.

Sarah: 19:54

There's a short where Goofy is doing all the chores for the day. Now. This is a Disney's 50 cartoon, by the way.

Bruce: 20:03

Was this before or after the birth of Max?

Sarah: 20:06

You know, this is classic, you know good old days Disney.

Bruce: 20:10

Yeah, good old, days Goofy.

Sarah: 20:11

This is gender roles, goofy.

Bruce: 20:14

Yeah.

Sarah: 20:14

He's doing all this, his wife's task. He's like dusting, he's baking, he's doing the laundry, he's vacuuming. And then the postman, or no, it's the milkman. The milkman comes to deliver the milk and he gives him a full-blown kiss on the lips blown kiss on the lips.

Bruce: 20:34

The milkman gives goofy a kiss quick like pops in eyes, closed, okay, and then runs out goofy go.

Sarah: 20:36

I know he was shocked.

Bruce: 20:37

He was like he didn't understand what is the implication get a yuck out of him no the implication is like the post the milk the milkman thought goofy was his wife exactly.

Sarah: 20:47

So you don't know what if I went up to goofy. I was like, hey, man, are you married? Like you married you Like you married, do you have kids? He'd be like I just found out Like she went off with the milkman. You don't want to put yourself in that conversation. Think about it. Just think if you're going to run into a Goofy with something that you say.

Bruce: 21:05

Yeah, never pull a Goofy.

Sarah: 21:07

You don't know what someone's going through, so just ask something innocuous what are you doing this weekend? The weekend never offended anybody. Unless it was the actual musician, unless it was the musician.

Bruce: 21:16

The weekend.

Sarah: 21:17

And he had that horrible HBO show.

Bruce: 21:19

And he stole that opal from that one jeweler.

Sarah: 21:22

Yeah.

Bruce: 21:22

Yeah.

Sarah: 21:24

The opal, my opal.

Bruce: 21:25

Got a good opal cage Speaking in New Yorkers. Okay.

Sarah: 21:29

So that's that's helpful.

Bruce: 21:31

When you know one, one thing I'll add too which is interesting people often associate sales with being sleazy. You know we've had Alex Estrepo on the podcast multiple times.

Sarah: 21:42

He's a big advocate for sales engineers.

Bruce: 21:43

He uses his full name yes, Capitalist correspondent Alex Estrepo.

Sarah: 21:46

I'm just making sure. No, he's known.

Bruce: 21:47

We have a question from him coming up, I mean. So he you know he often talks about the importance of sales and sales engineering and he loves being a sales engineer, but what people don't realize? In sales specifically, the best sellers are the ones that are asking really good questions.

Sarah: 22:03

Yes.

Bruce: 22:03

And they're listening more than they're talking.

Sarah: 22:05

Exactly.

Bruce: 22:06

Because the customer is going to tell you exactly what they want. And I've seen this happen so often, where you have these really charismatic salespeople that can't close deals because they're so focused on themselves. Right, where you have someone who maybe even is a little more shy, but they're asking really good questions, they're getting to the bottom of the customer's problem, they're making the customer feel heard and there's nothing a person likes more than the sound of their own voice. So when you're a seller and you're getting them to talk more than you are, you're getting information, you're getting to the bottom of their problems. They feel like they're having a good experience. Because they're getting to talk more than you are, you don't feel like a salesperson anymore. So everything you've said it just is validated by good selling, good customer service, good meeting running.

Sarah: 22:49

It's amazing how speaking less, asking more questions, being able to carry on a conversation based on what the other person's saying- not what you're thinking can lead to success, and you brought up something that I tell my clients as well, which is a great point that you don't have to be this. You don't have to be performative and traditionally charismatic like these. You know tech bros no offense to tech bros listening, I'm not making fun of you. I'm just saying there is a stereotype to it. Right, the LinkedIn bros. You don't have to be that person. What you said about listening and retaining information is so incredibly important, because a lot of people especially when you have people who get very in their head about socializing what they do is they. They sort of plan out what they're going to say next in order to avoid a faux pas. They don't want to stumble on their words. They don't want the um, uh, oh, I, I forgot what I said. They don't want that.

Bruce: 23:59

Right.

Sarah: 23:59

So they will script out their conversation. They will script it out in their head and then you're going to run risk of you were so busy focusing on the script that you did miss something the client said and they said yeah, actually we talked about that last week, do you remember? That's a bad feeling, like that would make anyone's heart sink, like, oh my gosh, I forgot something this guy told me just now because I was so focused on what I was going to say. In order to alleviate my own anxious situation, it is entirely appropriate to just take some time for yourself. If you are in a conversation and you're in sales and a client is sort of info dumping on you, it is entirely appropriate for you to just clarify, even if there's something that you're like you know what? I was kind of dazed out for the last five minutes, so like, hey, I'm sorry, I don't want to make you have to repeat this. I just want to make sure I get it clear because it's very important to me to understand your situation fully. Would you mind explaining again why this is such a problem with you? I just want to make sure I am fully understanding the gravity of your situation. Whatever, as long as you explain yourself.

Sarah: 25:10

People are always going to be pretty receptive. You're not going to have anyone that's like nah, I already said that you should have been paying. You might I've had clients not my social skills clients but I've had um clients in law that were very, you know, obnoxious, like that people are going to be like you know, you're just going to have to roll your eyes and just say, okay, well, sorry if I seemed like I wasn't paying attention there. I just wanted to make sure that I understood you properly, but I think I got the gist of it. Whatever you can, kind of again, I'm just BSing my way through a hypothetical situation with a person because I'm so used to talking to people, I'm so used to customer service and client retention and happiness and everything like that, but that comes with years of experience.

Bruce: 25:53

Right Years I've worked in law for nearly like a decade.

Sarah: 25:57

And then you know, at the same time I was a community manager for several different online groups of people from all over the world, so I've got a ton of experience talking to people, appeasing people, mediating people, and a lot of social interactions are like that, especially if you take it seriously. You're often going to have to be the one that is kind of like the big dog, right. You're kind of have to be the one that is going to be putting in more effort into the situation than you're getting back, and sometimes that sucks, trust me it, and I don't have any advice for you know, keeping yourself encouraged other than you do the best that you can. You are not responsible for how someone else is interacting with you. If you give it your all at work, if you are going in there and you're really trying and you're really being nice and kind and you're being thoughtful and you're just not getting the same response, that's their loss. It has nothing to do with you. You're doing great.

Sarah: 27:00

Some people just suck, and that's what it comes down to. It doesn't mean you're doing a bad job. Some people just suck. Dealing with a lot of people that are there's like a pandemic of. I've had more young people than ever before coming to me and saying hey, I don't know how to talk to people, like I don't even know how to approach someone, and it breaks my heart because it's it's, it's a crappy situation when you feel like you can't talk to people because you don't know how, and you're so, you're so nervous, and so for me, that's why my passion and my passion, I want to, I want people to be happier. And, uh, in order to do that, in order to be more happy in your conversations and stuff, you've got to just make sure you are confident and set and happy with who you are before you can kind of, you know, be successful socially.

Bruce: 27:54

Right Mind if I ask some questions from our listeners.

Sarah: 27:57

Sure.

Bruce: 27:57

Cool. So this comes from Monroe and she asks how to be personable in professional settings while maintaining boundaries. Seems to be with culture. Seems to be with the culture to share about your personal life with colleagues, but I don't know how to feel about that.

Sarah: 28:13

That is a great question, because I'm sure we've all been in a situation where we've been with an overshare, where they're like whoa, that is, like TMI. But ask yourself, does it make you uncomfortable when you listen to someone offloading things about their life? Some people say yes, some people hate hearing personal details, I don't want to know anything about it. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. If you are that kind of person, then yeah, your boundary is pretty clear in that you don't want to hear personal details. Now, someone like me. I had a boss who was very TMI about everything and I freaking loved it. I found it incredibly entertaining. Now, I was only. I'd only share information up until you know, I felt comfortable with my own personal boundaries, so I wouldn't talk about things. A lot of people would just come into the office like, well, I spent 20 minutes on the toilet, guys, but guess what?

Sarah: 29:17

everyone hears it they're like oh, that guy is hilarious. Yeah, some people, and that's, that's his boundary. If you don't want to hear it, I I would never tell someone, I would never correct someone for oversharing. Just because once you kind of sour a work relationship or you make someone feel bad for who they are, it can be difficult to move forward. Now there is a difference between professionalism. You of course don't want your boss talking about you know, getting it on or something with his wife.

Bruce: 29:49

Or having an affair. Yeah, you don't want him to be fair?

Sarah: 29:50

yeah, you don't want him to do that right you don't want him to be.

Sarah: 29:56

If you can't say it in front of your hr manager, then I'd say that's a good rule of thumb, like, probably don't say it with a colleague, but oversharing really is going to be your own personal temperature of whether or not you're comfortable telling someone else details about your life. Now, there are some things that you shouldn't hide, you know, unless for whatever reason, like I wouldn't hide your marital status or anything like that. I don't know how strict your boundaries are, but when you are too elusive, when you were like I don't really want to answer that question, I don't. I don't feel comfortable with you asking if I'm married. It might send off a signal that it might put someone on edge. Someone might not know how to approach you because they're going to feel a little bit uncomfortable or they're going to be a little bit taken aback, made to feel like they did something wrong right in asking a pretty I mean, that's just a pretty common knowledge question. You can literally go up and see marriage certificates online, kind of thing.

Bruce: 31:00

Um, well, yeah, I, I hear that and I'm just thinking like if I said, oh, you know, are you married? Like I'm not comfortable answering that question immediately, it goes back to me like yes, did I say something wrong? You'd feel, like you could feel what did I do wrong here?

Sarah: 31:14

you'd feel, oh okay, are you? Are you like in witness protection or something?

Bruce: 31:19

what's going on?

Sarah: 31:20

and this is. This is one thing on the topic of oversharing and professionalism and setting boundaries and the reason I said I tell my clients to be transparent up front, even in a very small way, even okay, if you're sick, if you did have a bad day on the toilet and you're sick, you don't have to tell them that. You just say oh yeah, sorry, I just wasn't feeling well this morning, I got up to a late start, but I'm I'm happy to be here now.

Sarah: 31:46

That's all you have to say right you don't have to say I'm not telling you what I was doing this morning. Please don't ask Like that's.

Bruce: 31:52

You'd be like dang, what's going on? I'm going to assume Did they murder somebody?

Sarah: 31:56

Yes, I'm going to assume my own truth about the situation. It's easier for you to offer up the truth than for me to make up a story about the truth.

Bruce: 32:06

right, and that is how it goes and well, and that's the thing is like, humans love to fill in the blanks exactly so anytime we hear something that's sus, immediately we start to think right okay, so what were they doing this morning?

Sarah: 32:18

exactly I saw that thing on the news about that missing child you're going to say if someone's 30 minutes late to work and you offer up no explanation because you've made it clear that you don't want to talk about your personal life in any way, I'm gonna be making up some. So I'm gonna say you know what?

Sarah: 32:35

I'm making up some stories right maybe she was on the toilet for 30 minutes. You don't just offer it up front, just say, hey, I was running late, sorry, just wasn't feeling well, or you know whatever. I got to a late start, I didn't get out of bed until I overslept my alarm. Whatever you want, but I do think that the boundaries, the personal boundaries that people set for themselves, make um, it makes it easier if you're just a little bit forthcoming in a way that doesn't overstep what you want to share, just because people like to know what it is they're dealing with, and most of the time no one's going to remember this sort of stuff. So, yeah, I'd say, share up until you feel comfortable, but do remember that people will fill in the blanks if they feel like they're not getting the full story or full picture.

Bruce: 33:28

Yeah, I think one thing that's tricky and challenging today more so than ever before and I don't really care, so I just kind of let it ride in my conversations, but I know other people have concerns about this is oh, you know, if there's a corporate event and there's alcohol there, it's like, well, I don't drink. So you know, suddenly there is this. You know, how do I socialize in an environment I'm not comfortable with? Or this goes against my beliefs, or you know, and I often feel bad for those kinds of people because, like their, their boundaries, which they so firmly believe in, they're so trivial, you know, like it's, it's all perceived, it's all perception, but it can make them feel as an outsider, and then you also feel like they're judging you yeah, that's.

Sarah: 34:12

I mean, that is the problem when you go to an event. Okay, if, if you are in a situation where you do feel out of place for whatever reason and you're not partaking. Let's say, all the company is going to a karaoke bar and you absolutely hate singing, but attendance is mandatory and people are asking you hey, bill, why aren't you up there singing? Man, what's wrong? You could just say you know you could be funny about it.

Sarah: 34:43

Like, trust me, I'm doing you all a favor you don't want to hear me sing, but I am here to cheer you on and I can't wait to hear some songs. Because I am here to cheer you on and I can't wait to hear some songs because I'm going to be your backup singer. I'm going to be clapping in the audience. I've immediately diffused the situation. No one's going to ask me again, right? But I also haven't. I hate. I hate hearing other people sing. I swear to god, I hate hearing other people sing. I don't want to hear all these wannabe musicians up here. I'm only here because I was forced to be. I would say you know what? F you man? I'm not talking to you anymore. You're a buzzkill. Now you've made me feel bad about the situation, right?

Sarah: 35:18

One of these, one of these responses is a very socially skilled person. The other person is being very honest, but it's to their detriment, because now I'm you know what. Don't even ask that guy to go sing. That guy's an a-hole, forget it. I'm going to sing some songs to annoy him. Like you now cause a little bit of contention. You've created animosity For no reason.

Bruce: 35:38

You've hurt your own brand and relationship.

Sarah: 35:40

Because you're like, well, I hate singing, I'm not going to, I don't care about anyone's feelings, like, no, that's not it. Socializing again to wrap it up, or, you know, to go back to what I said, it's not about you as much as it is the other person. Right, I want to make sure the other person feels safe and calm and fun and, you know, happy when they talk to me.

Bruce: 36:06

I'm not going to put them down about something. One thing I used to do because we'd always do these um, these beer events in our break room and I don't like beer. So they'd give us like a ticket and you'd get a ticket for a beer. So everyone gets one ticket. And because I didn't like beer, I didn't want to not go to the event and be, you know, a social, you know buzzkill, what I would do. Everyone knew that if they came to me, I'd give them my ticket. I'd be like you enjoy this for me, because I don't really care for it, I'll get a, I'll get a tea, you have my beer. People love that. Exactly that's how I turn that situation from something that I think some people would feel uncomfortable in into. I've made myself socially, you know, beloved in this situation, because I know if they come to bruce they get a free beer exactly, and you can have some fun with it too.

Sarah: 36:50

Give them a little bit of a backstory, if you want you know. You could just say you know what. I spent the week in bruges and the beer there was fantastic. It was made by these monks. It's like the oldest beer. This beer got them through the plague and I had that beer and it was freaking magical changed my life forever and nothing will touch it and I can't drink this beer anymore, so you have my ticket.

Bruce: 37:12

Yeah.

Sarah: 37:13

People I mean people will be like very entertained by it.

Bruce: 37:15

And you've made a fun story, and no one's ever going to forget that either. No, they're going to be like, oh yeah. He doesn't drink because he went to Bruges.

Sarah: 37:23

And the beer has ruined him on Because it is now the top of the bar. You can have fun with your. You can have fun with drawing a line in the sand with your boundaries or whatever it is, as long as it's not like an HR violation Right.

Bruce: 37:36

Yeah, it's like if the you know the company is like it breaks off some boys like we'll go into the strip club, and you're like, well, that's actually against you know. Like like no thanks, y'all have fun. Like no thanks, y'all have fun. You know, if you don't believe which you know, you know, I think that's demeaning to women so I'm not gonna go yeah, you don't have to tell them that you can say no, no, that's not for me, you go have fun yeah, or you say you know what fellas?

Sarah: 37:57

let's uh, let's all call our wives and put them on speakerphone real quick.

Bruce: 38:02

Let's say goodbye to the wives on speakerphone, turn around I mean, then they might never invite you to anything again. Then you're locked out Well before you do that, take pictures, see a blackmail.

Sarah: 38:12

Yeah, it's true. Hey, fellas, let's take a selfie. Lickety splits, here we come, so there you go. You draw your line in the sand in a fun way.

Bruce: 38:24

I love it. Okay. So bourgeoisie correspondent Alex Restrepo asks ask her how to be a couple of friends with another couple that flakes on everything all the time. I need help.

Sarah: 38:37

Hi, alex, that isn't about us, is it? That's not about us.

Bruce: 38:44

We never flake. If we don't want to do something, we tell them no.

Sarah: 38:47

Okay, so how to be friends with another another couple that flakes all the time welcome to my world buddy. I have had to be the one spearheading outings for every single friendship I have ever had, and it is exhausting as heck. I will tell you what. How many times have I complained?

Bruce: 39:07

oh it.

Sarah: 39:08

It's exhausting and it's incredibly defeating to be the person that is in a position to spearhead something and you are not getting the reciprocated interest. It makes you feel unimportant. Yeah, and I don't really even have a great answer for that, because I have been in the same situation all my life.

Bruce: 39:36

And it's difficult Because you want to preserve the friends.

Sarah: 39:40

You want to preserve the friends.

Bruce: 39:41

But they might be crappy friends.

Sarah: 39:42

Right and unfortunately, like I said, you could be doing everything right, you could be a freaking fantastic friend, you could be so fun to be around, but none of that is going to change the other person, Right? So I wish I knew the answer to that. The only thing I can say is that and this is a difficult situation too, because when you get to a point where you, you can't, we've gotten to a point where people will take things really personally, so you can't ever you, unless it's a really special friendship. I would never even suggest addressing it with somebody like you know what, guys, I put all this work into planning stuff and I can't get a response. Do you guys care?

Sarah: 40:30

like that is a no, no, you never do that, and it's unfortunate that I'm saying you can't ever really be fully open and you can't be really fully open and confide honestly, because it automatically puts the other person on the defense and then it's begrudging oh, I was going to get around to it if you'd give me some time, but now you've made it a chore. So the only advice I can say if you're a couple and you're trying to befriend another couple but they're really flaky, is you can try to put the ball in their court and put the pressure on them in a way that doesn't make them feel bad about the situation. That's like hey guys, you know what, I'm going to give you a challenge. Or if you find anything really cool that you think we'd like, definitely let us know. We will be there. You guys just name the date and time. If you find a really cool place or you guys always have really cool interests in botany If you know any fun botanical gardens for the four of us to go to, definitely let me know. Try and find something that you know they cannot resist, right, and so therefore, the bait has been laid, but do it in a way that is putting the ball in their court in an enthusiastic way. Compliment them a little bit like oh, you picked the best places for dinner. If next time you guys find a cool dinner place, do me a favor and let us know, because we've been dying to go to you make someone feel important and when you give them a little bit of a job, maybe that can help.

Sarah: 42:12

The other thing I can find other piece of advice is I'm always advocating people to try new hobbies and try meeting new people, because it is really fantastic when your energy is reciprocated in the same manner.

Sarah: 42:29

Nothing makes me and I'm kind of like a I'm I think I'm more of an extrovert than an introvert just because I really do like. I like going out with people and I like doing going to places and whatnot. But nothing gets me more high like on pixie sticks than meeting someone with my same energy level. Then we kind of like rub each other up right, it's fun for people to be on that level. So I would try and encourage you to find to try and get out there and find people that match your energy level, because you can only go so far with people who constantly flake on you and, as someone who has invested a lot of time in relationships where the other person consistently flakes, even after years of patience and hope, it doesn't get any better, and I hate to be like you know. It's a real thing to say, though You're just not going to be able to change people ultimately in the end. So you can try that, but otherwise I'd say, try and branch out and, you know, meet people that match your energy level.

Bruce: 43:30

Yeah.

Sarah: 43:31

I think that's like a, something that makes people happy.

Bruce: 43:34

I like that. I think that's a good, uh, it's a good way to handle it. You know, they say the only thing you can change is your outlook. Exactly yeah.

Sarah: 43:40

You know. So don't let get you discouraged, because it's it's not going to help anybody. It won't help you, it won't help the other person, you're just going to get frustrated, you know.

Bruce: 43:50

Yeah, well, that's the questions. That's the questions. Any closing thoughts you've got?

Sarah: 43:56

Yes, If you want a one-on-one. This podcast is now sponsored by my website. Oh, you're paying me. You're paying me to be here? Yeah, absolutely.

Bruce: 44:03

Oh, you're paying me. You're paying me to be here. Yeah, absolutely oh sick. Your first paid sponsor, heck yeah, we were waiting for Raid Shadow Legends but I guess, I'll take Sarah's social skills.

Sarah: 44:14

So how do they find you If you go to social W-S-A-R-A-S-O-C-I-A-L-W-S-A-R-E-Hcom?

Bruce: 44:23

I'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah, put a link there.

Sarah: 44:26

You can hire me to help you and we'll sit down together and video call or voice call whatever you're comfortable with and we'll talk about where you are in your life and we'll come up with a game plan to get you to a place where you feel happy and confident talking to people in a way that works for you. And we're not going to turn you into a LinkedIn bro. We're going to turn you into a linkedin bro. We're going to make you the best version of yourself.

Bruce: 44:49

I just want to know how this is going to help me in my b2b sales journey what does that mean? That's the linkedin. That's the classic linkedin b2b.

Sarah: 44:57

What is that business to?

Bruce: 44:58

business. Oh, and on linkedin see, you're so fortunate that you're not in this environment. Yeah, on linkedin, and this is why I don't go there anymore everything is is oh, I got divorced last week. Here's what it taught me about B2B sales.

Sarah: 45:11

Yeah, Business to business.

Bruce: 45:12

Like it's awful and it's just become a trend. So again, if they want to schedule with you socialwsarahcom, and what kind of courses do you offer?

Sarah: 45:23

offer is it I just order the one right now, but honestly I have fit the role of a therapist. I have had multiple people tell me that one hour with me was more beneficial to them than 10 years of a therapist.

Bruce: 45:38

Okay, that's like you need to get those reviews on your I know I told I was like please write this down I was like eli.

Sarah: 45:44

Please put that into writing five star review I do have some reviews on my website, but I need him to put that right. He he was like I, Eli, please put that into writing. Five-star review, please. I do have some reviews on my website, but I need him to put that in writing. He was like I have been with a therapist for 10 years and you've done more for me than they have in the one hour I've been with you.

Bruce: 45:59

That's a testimony. That was just our first meeting, yeah, so if you're interested in improving your social skills and if you found nuggets in this podcast, reach out.

Sarah: 46:06

Or if you need help with your life. I'm also a life coach.

Bruce: 46:10

Yep Schedule it.

Sarah: 46:12

Schedule it. And the great thing is Look, we sound like. We sound like a cult, we sound like a cult. Here's the thing Schedule it.

Bruce: 46:19

You know, clark and I have been trying to get funding for this podcast donations for this podcast for years now. So hey, if this podcast for years now. So hey, if they won't support us, maybe they'll support you. So yes, you, if you pay for a session with sarah, you actually get something in return, unlike this podcast and you know what?

Sarah: 46:34

I'm also a voice actress professionally. Someone out there listen, I just record a cool commercial. If you live in maine, if any of you guys listen in maine and you have central Maine power, check me out. I'm on TV. Cmp, I'm on TV. I am also voice actress. Now I'm really shilling myself out those are the plugs.

Bruce: 46:57

yeah, so if you need a social coach, therapist unlicensed or a voice actress, socialwstharacom why not?

Sarah: 47:07

well, thanks for joining yeah, thanks for having me on the podcast.

Bruce: 47:09

It's great to have you I've been meaning to have you for a long time and I think this was the right time to get you on, so yeah, I hope, uh, everyone out there just remembers to stay true to yourself and don't feel like you have to change.

Sarah: 47:21

we just need to. We need to just each find our voice, that's all. So practice, speak aloud, let your voice be heard.

Bruce: 47:31

I love it. Thanks, sarah. Thanks, bruce, keeping it formal, we never use names.

Sarah: 47:38

All right, well, that'll do it. We never use names. We never use names.

Bruce: 47:41

It's always so awkward, the outro and intro when it's not real.

Sarah: 47:46

Yes.

Bruce: 47:46

Yes. So thanks again. When it's not real, yes, yes. So thanks again, and for our listeners, thanks, as always for listening.

Bruce: 47:51

If you would like to help out the podcast, you can do so by going to the show notes. We have our link tree. You can make donations, you can go to our website, you can go buy some merch, you could leave us a review, you can share us with your friends. There's so many things you can do all in that link tree in the show notes and, importantly, you can also join our Discord, which is our community, where folks posted the questions we brought up on the show today. It's a great place to hang out, share information about jobs, work experience. You can do an anonymous confession, for is it me or is it corporate? We love those. We've got one of those we need to respond to on a future episode. So check out all the things in our link tree, as per usual. Thanks to our listeners, as always, for listening. Do share with your friends if you like what you heard. And until then, here's what running a podcast has taught me about B2B sales. I'm Bruce.

Sarah: 48:38

And I was the guest. I'm Sarah, Thanks.

Bruce: 48:40

Sarah and you're all on mute. We'll see you next week.

Sarah: 48:45

Bye-bye.