Corporate Strategy
Corporate Strategy
157. The Art of Succession
Succession planning creates a complex challenge when you discover a talented team member lacks the critical skills needed to advance despite their strong desire to move up.
• Valuable team members may excel in many areas but struggle with core competencies needed for advancement
• Breaking problems into smaller components can help develop skills, but some abilities like creative thinking are difficult to train
• Lateral moves can sometimes provide faster advancement opportunities than struggling in the wrong role
• Effective managers must invest significant time creating growth opportunities tailored to individual team members
• Honest conversations about career paths, though difficult, demonstrate care for employees' long-term success
• Building teams that can function without you is a sign of leadership success
• Corporate clawbacks, like demanding repayment of $1,500 in vacation pay due to HR error, demonstrate misplaced priorities
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been a while since you heard that little beaver, isn't it? This is a bear. I don't think we ever determined what it is I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Guess who's back? Who's back movements? Who's that clarky, clark and the funky bunch?
Speaker 1:oh, clarky, clark. I. I'm sorry, I I forgot. I forgot. Welcome back, clark, it's been a minute.
Speaker 2:It's been too long. I had a little bit of a personal thing happen and I've been out for a couple weeks. I've been off the game, but we have had some awesome podcasts with Sarah and then Alex in between.
Speaker 1:So I feel like.
Speaker 2:Sarah and.
Speaker 1:Alex have been blowing up the Discord. Yeah, they're the new hosts. I don't. They don't need us anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I leave and we don't even host this anymore. We're not even part of this. The community has just taken off. All it took was me being gone.
Speaker 1:I am quite certain we could just hand over the reins of this to Sarah and Alex and they would be fine. They'd be fine, we should totally. The listeners might not be, but yeah, uh, I think they could run uh, an infinite podcast.
Speaker 2:I love that, yeah, honestly, you know what's a really cool feeling. So I used to have, uh, back in the day I'm going to my corporate career, I used to be worried about job security. I used to be like, if I leave and they don't feel like they're missing me, like am I really contributing? Am I really, you know, doing a good job? Because they don't even need me? And nowadays, as I've grown in my career, I realized it's so important that you build something that can scale without you. You set your team up for success so it can move on without you, and so it was almost like a proud dad moment when I saw this thing was just rocking with you and everyone else and I'm like this is incredible that we built something that can carry on with or without one of us here.
Speaker 1:And so we tested a good lesson.
Speaker 1:We tested the waters when I was just like, oh sorry, my schedule won't allow me to do anything for a month and you and Restrepo had to fill in. I mean, I think it's. I think it's doable. I think we've got a good cabal of guests now and like open invite to people in the disky. If you want to come on and test, test your might on the pod, we we willing to, we willing to hear you, and I would absolutely hand over the reins to any any of the our previous guests. They're all apt and ready to your point.
Speaker 1:Though, Like that is something I am thinking a lot about recently not handing over the pod Screw that I want to spend. I agree, my biggest fear is not the act of passing along, but it's like the act of I might be inadvertently screwing you over by bypassing this along to you Because, like some people, they can't. They can't be you, Right, They'll never be able to be you. But you also can't hinder yourself because only I can be me. You know what I'm saying. You know what I mean oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's weird right, and it actually so. This blends so nicely into the topic, so we can either dive in oh hey, before we do that, real, quick no before that, real quick.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Corporate Strategy Podcast. I'm Bruce.
Speaker 2:And I'm Clark hey, what's going on Clark, how? And I'm Clark hey, what's going on Clark? How is that not happening?
Speaker 1:yet.
Speaker 2:I honestly, like I thought you already did that my brain would just forget. I never do it.
Speaker 1:I refuse to do it. I like to linger, I like to let it pop up. I'm a big fan Like another tangent. I love when movies don't do the credits in the beginning, Like give me a late, you know, like title card. The later into the movie the title card is, the more I'm like this is good, this is good. I saw a movie recently Highly recommend. It's called Hundreds of Beavers. It's very funny.
Speaker 2:It's a very funny movie.
Speaker 1:You don't get the title card until over an hour into the movie. It's fantastic.
Speaker 2:I feel like there's a point where it's just inappropriate, like at that point it's like do you even do it? Like an hour in is pretty deep.
Speaker 1:I think you can watch it free on YouTube, clark, I think you would love this movie, just like knowing you, knowing who you are. It is a black and white silent film made last year about a woodsman who has to deal with hundreds of beavers. It is the funniest thing you will ever see. I promise you you will love it. Specifically Like the protagonist kind of reminds me of you in a way. He's scrappy, he's outdoorsy, but he's just, you know, dealing with those hundreds of beavers. It's a challenge, great. Is this a true?
Speaker 2:anyway. So it's a real, truest story. The title card literally doesn't pop for an hour into the movie.
Speaker 1:It's fantastic how do you find these things? That's that's what I want to do. I enjoy well, I, I, that's what I enjoy doing. I like finding these things, so I find them, I go out looking for them.
Speaker 2:Uh, but my world is just so like so protected. You know, I'm just like there's like normie world. You know where I'm in? Normie world, like my many are of concern is like sports, outdoors, work life and even in life. I'm not like searching the dark web for weird things that are super niche. I stay pretty surface level. I feel like you go deep on these things and you somehow go out of normie world and into this land where I don't even know exists yes, correct.
Speaker 1:well, I and and I don't, I don't live, I don't operate in normie world period, right, like I don't know what sports are, I don't know what life is outdoors, is for dogs to go poop, like you know. It's like all he said. Like I am, I am sniffing around like a truffle hog, sniffing for that, that next thing that just sparks that joy, and it's always these, these odd little indie movies and games. Just love it, love to Love to find them, love to experience them and then love to share them with folks. I'm your tester. Basically I'm saying, hey, hundreds of beavers, this is a Clark certified banger. Trust me, you're going to love it.
Speaker 2:I love that for you. I love this all about. This is what makes you uniquely you, and that's what I love about people. Because the people, because sure, it's the people that get into these things. It's like why in the world do you even know about this? And it's what makes people so interesting. I feel like I'm so boring compared to awesome people like you no, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 1:No, no. But I mean like, see that that's the thing you are. You are you, but, like for the biz world, like I don't know how to do half the crap, you know how to do, I would just follow in your wake and be like fuck boy, he got this Me. I'm like, nah, I'm too. I'm too outside the normal operational model. I need the normality to function, I think, but I can't do that myself.
Speaker 2:I think this is why we work so well together and, honestly, as I think about it, like some of the closest people in my life are very similar to you. They're like the creative thinkers and I'm like the I don't know like the normal pusher along with things, and it's like whenever we get together, magic happens and I feel like that's what's so cool about it.
Speaker 1:Well and I think that's part of what makes this podcast interesting is you have you have the oddball, and then you have, like the by the book, and you have to find the middle ground, because neither work like neither actually work in corporate. If you're too by the book, you'll find yourself stuck in a rut, and if you're too oddball, you'll find yourself fired.
Speaker 2:So, like it's that middle ground, it's right in the middle ground that gets you success that's what we're trying to teach you all be the combination, be right in the middle of where we are on the outliers of, and somehow you'll find success be the odd book.
Speaker 1:That's what you got to do. Stand out, be different, think different, think different. Just do it, though. Just do it. Who said?
Speaker 2:that, just do it. What else?
Speaker 1:Pepsi man.
Speaker 2:Continue with Pepsi man, please. I'm never going to stop. You brought it. We need to find. You know. Our first live stream should be playing that game.
Speaker 1:We should, absolutely, oh absolutely. I wonder how much that costs to import, because I was going to say I could run it on original hardware. But before I commit to something too expensive oh my gosh, it's $190 on eBay.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh are you serious Dead.
Speaker 1:Serious PS1, pepsi man. Sony PlayStation Test at $190.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's not a crazy investment. Alright, everybody, donate us a coffee, we'll buy Pepsi man and we'll live stream it.
Speaker 1:For our first live stream. Hell yeah, I'm down. I'm so down to clown. So you had a really good lead in moments ago, but I ruined it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you did. Yeah, you literally just squandered it. You always do these incredible lead ins. I could feel it was weird. I could feel it was weird, I could feel the lead-in happening and I was like, oh my gosh, this fits so nicely into what I want to talk about today. This fits so nicely, this fits so nicely. And then you're like nope, we're going to talk about something completely different.
Speaker 1:I felt it. I felt you were going to do it and I really I kind of want to be the guy that does the good lead-ins, so I didn't want you to have that moment.
Speaker 2:You just took it, okay, just stomped it with my feet. Well, now, this is a really boring intro to what I want to talk about. It could have been so natural and fun, but now it's just abrupt and in the middle of what we're talking about and awkwardly behind. Hey, let's skip to the topic now. Here it is. Hey, do you ever Don't you dare, Don't you dare. I can see when you step back and you got that smile on your face. You were cooking something to say right there.
Speaker 1:I was, I was, and I was like you know what? I'm going to let Clark have this one. You couldn't control yourself.
Speaker 2:I couldn't I couldn't.
Speaker 1:This is what happens Like we haven't done a pod in so long.
Speaker 1:Like I've got these urges to just be bad that you couldn't do in the last two, when we have guests, I mean well, one of them was my wife, so I have to be, you know, behaved. The other one was restrepo and you know I get worried, like he's he is smarter than me and like he can beat me in a battle of the wit. So like I can't, I can't come at him, but you and me, I feel like we're on equal playing field and I can just come in there and I can be a disruptor.
Speaker 2:I'm that oddball physically, I think alex would whoop me, so I wouldn't even attempt so in all he's like a foot taller than both of us physically, spiritually.
Speaker 1:We're not in that level, like we just kind of stay below that level so we're just just not going to challenge them. I know how to pick my battles. You know I only pick battles with my consistent podcast co-host.
Speaker 2:We know, I think we're battling for power. That's really what it is. It's like we're neck and neck and I think we're going to be like that the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Speaking of living life.
Speaker 1:You, you know. Something I've been thinking a lot about recently is succession. Have you, don't you dare, don't you dare. I'm signing off. This is it.
Speaker 2:You can cover it. Did it, did it done. Did it welcome back?
Speaker 1:welcome back okay okay, you thought it was gonna be easy.
Speaker 2:I thought it was yeah, no, no, we're gonna do this. We're gonna actually do the topic. We were talking about succession. This is important. I'm thinking about that a lot too. I've been thinking about who is going to follow in my footsteps. We actually have to. I don't know if you've ever had to do this, and maybe that's what you were alluding to at the beginning. Did you have to put together a succession plan for your team, or were you just thinking in your head I should have a succession plan?
Speaker 1:I might have to, I might have to, I might have to, I might have to. And it got me thinking, like you know, this is not an insult to any of my team members but like none of them have the specific skill set I have and I wouldn't, like I don't think any of them could fill in my shoes. I say I don't think, but like I don't want to you know I don't put them blast here but like part of the problem is like my team specifically, I didn't hire people like me. I hired people to fill in the things that I can't do. So I have a video person, I have a a a copywriter. I have a community manager. I have like a field partner manager.
Speaker 1:Like they're not doing my job. They're doing their job and I'm helping manage the chaos of what they do, or trying to help anyway, but like none of them can really succeed into my role because they're not solutions marketers. Right, like that's, that's really difficult. Like I'm thinking in the back of my mind succession plan is like do I have to hire externally? Like how do I do that? You know what? What are you thinking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting. You know, since I'm more in enterprise, like for me, I have a product management team, right?
Speaker 2:So the course, you're like you like exactly Like I don't hire people that do different things. There's other teams that hire those people to do those things because that's their domain, but our domain is product management, digital product management specifically, and so within that I'm like I hire people that should be able to do what I do one day and really the succession for them is like, basically, we keep on expanding the challenges for them, you know, putting them on a harder, more complex project, putting them in something they've never done before, whatever it is, to see how they kind of adapt and learn that area, if you will, and see how they do in that different kind of environment, and that kind of helps them grow and expand their reach and understand the business more broadly, which then gets them ready for that next level. And what we're looking to do along the way is we're identifying what are those skill sets that makes us good at what we do at our level and our leader like what, how does? How do they look down on us and say they're being successful because of X, y and Z? And so over the years we've had to define those behaviors because, to be to be just transparent, it was totally.
Speaker 2:Does it feel like Clark is doing a good job and he's ready for a promotion. And it's all about did you get the right visibility and do you feel like you're ready? But feel is so subjective. And so we've been, our teams have really been struggling on like, well, am I doing the things? And when they ask us, are you doing the things, and we say yeah, I think so. And like that's not a good answer and it doesn't give someone a good path to say, well, what do I work on then? Like how do I work? If you don't feel like I'm ready, then what do I need to do? And so we've been working over the years to establish what are those behaviors that we want to see at each of the levels. And once you're exceeding the things you do at your level, or doing the things at the next level, then you should be eligible for promotion, of course, whenever the opportunity does arise for the need for a promotion. If that makes sense, can I ask a?
Speaker 1:question Please, do you have actual written guidelines? Oh, if Clark wants to move to the next level, clark needs to do this, this, this and this. Or is it like to be the next level? You have to do this, this, this, this, or is it like to be the next level? You have to do this, this, this, this, or is it?
Speaker 2:we don't know it's more of the second one to be, and that's what we've established in the last like, even just two years of like, and I know because I've gone through the ranks some of the people that are my peers got hired into this job.
Speaker 1:They didn't work up the ranks to get to the level that we're at.
Speaker 2:And so, like the perspective is different for me, I was like I had no clue if I was doing right things or wrong things. I just went through my gut and intuition and what I thought was important and I just acted the way I. I thought I should act to get to that level. But that's like very abstract and not concrete and probably could have been done a lot better or had a lot more guidance in figuring that out. So we kind of worked on that together to say what are those actual behaviors of the level, if you will. So it's like associate product owner, product owner, product manager, lead product manager, director of product management, and what are the behaviors that we kind of aligned for each of them that we should see at that level. And so it actually is.
Speaker 2:It's pretty good because then, to your point, even though we're just doing the second, when we have our performance reviews we can say to get to that next level, we want to see this behavior. And sometimes in the conversations it's like, well, I need to give my employee the opportunity to show that behavior and guide them on how to do that. So I sometimes have to do the work to say how do I give them that opportunity? How do I step out of the way, give them that opportunity so we can see how they do and I can provide feedback? So, basically, even though we're doing the second at the role level, it gets to the first at the individual level, because you can talk at that specific level, I guess, or criteria, which then gets into well, how do you do it in your specific role, in your specific area?
Speaker 1:Yes, so I get you. Now. I see where the I see where the challenge is arising. Yeah, dealing with I'm dealing with very similar things, interestingly enough. Yeah, and what's interesting, it's different to startup because we don't have anything actually quantified, so it is all feel, uh, but taking the training wheels off, letting people run and and trying to say like, yeah, if you, if you were able to prove that you can be a director, go prove it. But not being able to quantify what that actually is is difficult. But not being able to quantify what that actually is is difficult and it's a personal challenge.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I've got a particular dilemma around succession in this, okay, and I need your help.
Speaker 1:I need the listening help.
Speaker 2:Hopefully we can debate this in the Discord. What if somebody you thought could basically be your successor You're like, oh man, they've got the right stuff. They're killing it in XYZ and, as you're trying to grow them to be like, you're taking my shoes. Next, what if they just can't do it, even though they really want it? Is there a point where it's like you just can't, like it's just not going to happen for you?
Speaker 1:So I'm going to ask some questions, Please. One how valuable is this person to the company?
Speaker 2:Super valuable and they have a lot of strengths that I don't have, which is why I think they're so great, but they're lacking in the strengths that I have.
Speaker 1:They're lacking in the strengths that you have or the strengths that they need to do the job Both that I have, which are a necessity to do the job.
Speaker 2:How are you going to?
Speaker 1:keep this person if they can't do this job.
Speaker 2:It's something I've been going through a lot in my head of, because they want that next level so bad. We talk about it all the time and, you know, thanks to this framework, I'm able to get really specific. I'm like here's what we need to do. You're going to be in this meeting, this meeting, this meeting this week, but you have the opportunity to do it, and we've been trying for months now. I'm like, okay, here's an opportunity, let's do it. Here's an opportunity, let's do it.
Speaker 2:And I think where we're getting really hung up is on something that isn't always a super tangible do this, do this, do this. Then you can do this, if that makes sense. It's more of I need you to be creative when you're problem solving, not just you know, hey, give me the timeline, give me the plan. It's like I want you to creatively think out of the box on this problem and come up with solutions. I want you to creatively think out of the box on this problem and come up with solutions. And that's a hard thing to like train someone who is a certain mindset to think differently. And it's not something you can really coach, because each situation is a little unique. So how do you coach somebody in something that kind of is the type of person you are if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Are you perhaps starting too big like, too big of tasks, like if you, if you gave them smaller things to be creative on? Like this is something I struggle with, in all honesty, is when I try and solve big problems, it can quickly become anxiety inducing because I don't have all the cards, but, like if I'm starting with something smaller. So instead of like you know, a whole marketing campaign instead, it's well, what if I just start with a thought leadership blog, write this out, oh, okay, this is pretty good. I can see how I can take this and then turn it into something that we do demand gen email video, whatever, over a six month period with additional ads. See how I can take this and then turn it into something that we do demand gen email video, whatever over a six-month period with additional like. But it it takes me breaking the big rock into little rocks. Is it possible that you're just starting with too big a rock for this person? So, like, flex that muscle and exercise this ability it could be.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. I think what's interesting about the problems. It's like it's the right size of problem for the role that they're in.
Speaker 1:Yes For the role they're in currently.
Speaker 2:Yes For the role they're in currently. Like they should be able to tackle it in the role they're in currently, but they're struggling.
Speaker 1:That's interesting.
Speaker 2:So I'm seeing their partners.
Speaker 2:I have multiple employees at this level and I'm seeing their partners do really well with it, so they're tackling the about it this way rather than this way, and I think this person, even though we could break it down into smaller problem sets those smaller problem sets are their teams that are working on those things and actually doing well on those smaller problem sets. So where they are currently, it's like they're not doing great at the problems that they should be doing great at, and if you were to divide it into smaller things and give that opportunity, that's what their team's doing, which makes it even more complex.
Speaker 1:So now I'm confused because you said that earlier. This person is valuable and they bring a lot to the table, but it also sounds at the same time that they're not capable of doing the role they're in right now.
Speaker 2:I think in some sense that's yes and in some sense it's no. It's like there's areas that they're doing really, really well in, but there's like critical areas that they're not, and so their team is making up for where they're struggling, which is actually what you're supposed to do, right? You're like, if I'm not great at something, my team makes up for it, which they do. But I is actually what you're supposed to do, right? You're like, if I'm not great, my team makes up for it, which they do. But I think, as a core part of this role, to get to that next level.
Speaker 1:You have to be really good at this core competency, not your team, if that is. Is this person in the right role?
Speaker 2:yeah, you're going where my head. My head's crossed this path. It's like I want this person. This person is valuable to the company. I think they're really smart, smart. I think they will be good, but maybe it's not the right role for them. Like, maybe they deserve to go. We should look to move them to a role where they'll be more successful and able to get to this level in a different capacity, because that's where their strong suits lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm, I'm in full agreement. It's live. Yeah, I, I'm, I'm in full agreement. Um, the? I think back to when we had danny yonkers on the pod, one of the most influential episodes of my life. I think back on it often. If you have not listened to the episode with danny yonkers about management, go back and find it. I don't know what the number is, but you're going to go back and you're going to find it because it'd be worth your time to listen to the.
Speaker 1:The point he made about his one team member who was really great, but you know he kept trying to like get them to do more for the role they were in and then realized like it was actually his failure because he didn't put them in the right position to succeed. Like that sticks in my craw man, like I think about that all the time. I think about that with my current team and you know I'm at a. I'm at a very interesting job because it's a startup that wants to be, you know, an enterprise. So I'm dealing with just absolute whiplash in the. Is this content scrappy or is this content enterprise grade, right? And like going back and forth with my team and upper management on this all the time it's it is exhausting, is it is frustrating, as it is like exciting.
Speaker 1:But I'm always thinking like is my team just collectively? Like am I putting them in a position to succeed, given this complete variability of this job? And like it really depends on what mode we're in every day. And that's the solace I take myself is, like you know, the company is still figuring out what it wants to be, so I can't say that they're not right for the role because we don't know what we are yet.
Speaker 1:But in your case, you're in a very stable organization, like it is very your. Your job is not going to look any different next year than it does today, and what you're doing next year is going to be the exact same that we were doing today. Obviously different things, but like the roles and responsibilities will be the same. Mine will not. Mine won't be the same next month, right? Like that's the difference between where we are. But I think that you know what this person needs, either in their current role or in their next role, and it's going to be a tricky conversation, but I think it sounds like they're a really good person, but they're not in the right place for them to be successful and if you can convince them like, hey, actually doing this lateral move today means that you can move up next year, like that's probably the development path they need to be on.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, that's it's what I've been going back and forth on and like. On one hand, it's like you don't want to lose the great person but you want the best for them, to your point. On going back to like Danny's conversation, it's like this person's great in so many ways they're doing, let's say, 70 ish percent of what I need them to do really. They're doing let's say 70-ish percent of what I need them to do really, really well, actually going above and beyond in some of those areas.
Speaker 2:But the core, like additional 30 percent that I really really need them to do and what will get them to the next level, that's not their strong suit. They're going to have to go back to like ground zero in order to learn those skills in the most like the smallest way possible. Can they even learn it? That's the thing is like. I think there is a point in your life where it's like you recognize the type of person you are and I think maybe I think everybody has the capacity to learn, but you'd have to put in a lot of effort, like you'd almost have to go down to being like an associate product owner demonstrating the behaviors, working on those really small micro problems, finding solutions, do it for a long time and then, once you do that for a long time, you'll probably have it and you'll probably figure it out pretty quick.
Speaker 2:But I think it's years, not months, away, if that makes sense, and it's like, on the other hand, you go to another role that you're doing 90% of really, really well.
Speaker 2:You can probably get the next promotion faster than having to go around zero and that's like the hardest thing and like I'd also be devastated if I lost this person. I think they're great in so many ways, but I need to look out for them of what they need to do to get to that next level, and that's got to be with the opportunity that I find the hard thing. I'm curious, Bruce, what you think about this. The hard thing is finding them that next thing and knowing and convincing them that, hey, this is the good, right move for you because you're going to be able to get to that next level. Because I don't know that role or that competency right, so I can't confidently say you've got what it takes.
Speaker 1:So I think it's that classic cowboy saying you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink, right? Like your job is to present this option to them and say listen you, you cowboy. You're hanging around this dusty old town, but this town ain't good for you. You need to be two towns over in Rockvale. In Rockvale you can find success. There's gold in them hills. Now you can stay here and you will get shot by bandits, or you can go to Rockvale and mine yourself some gold. Partner.
Speaker 1:But like, you have to have that conversation with them and if they choose to take your advice power to them, if they say, hey, I'm gonna hang around this dusty old town, like things will play out the way that they play out. Like if they have not changed the behavior, if they have not shown that they're capable of being better, they're going their CAC is going to quickly drop Right, Because, like we know what they want, we know they can't get what they want. You express that to them Like you're not going to get this here. You just are not unless you demonstrate these specific behaviors which you have not demonstrated. It's going to be a hard conversation, but like it's a conversation that has to happen. And then you say literally this job over here, though, like I fully believe you can find success, but you have to go for it, you have to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a really hard conversation. It's hard to not get like take it personal. I think, from their point of view, like if I was in their shoes, I feel the same way, like OK, I have a little bit of imposter syndrome here. I'm doing this role. You know, I've been doing it for a while. I thought this was my path and now you're telling me this is might not be my path, maybe I need to go down a different path, which feels like a step back and it kind of feels like a failure.
Speaker 2:It's like I can't do the things I need to do to get to the next level. And I'm trying, and I think they are trying, I think they're doing, they're trying really, really hard, but it's just not clicking. And there's a point where it's just like If it's not clicking in, the opportunity to do it, like you said, at smaller levels is not easily present, because you need to be operating at a certain level. You can't go back to ground zero. It's hard because you could say, ok, maybe it's, maybe it's a training thing, maybe we should put them in like a training or something like that, like maybe you can find the right training class that'll help them like realize how to have that skillset, but finding that is like so hard and then you got to fund it and then you got to get them to do it and it's it's difficult to manage and so to your point.
Speaker 2:it's like the fastest path is probably finding the position that truly they can succeed in really really well, and it'll be the best thing for them in the long run, even though it feels like a little bit of a setback right now.
Speaker 1:It might help if you make a timeline for them too. Just like a hypothetical Like yeah, you stay here, you get trained. It's looking like X amount of months or years you go here, you do this. Yeah, it looks like a setback, but you can get to next level this much faster than if you hang around Like I think it's. Unfortunately, there's a little bit of work on your end to make this appealing because, like, you don't want this person to ultimately have this negatively impact them. You clearly care about them and they are clearly talented in a way. So, like, like it requires management, requires your time, effort and energy to kind of put this person on the right path. But I do think there's a point where you have to basically say like okay, I've done my thing. Like I cannot invest any more time in this person. Like now it's up to them on whether or not they flourish and grow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah. It's up to them on whether or not they flourish and grow. Yeah, absolutely yeah. I appreciate talking it through because I think there are. You know it is a lot on management Like some people think, like managers just provide the guidance and like you have to do all the work as the employee, in reality it's like you really, as the manager, have to do a lot of the work if you're helping someone grow.
Speaker 2:And that's why it's such an important role, and I think people who have never been managers don't really see that, but it's like you really want your team to do well. It requires a lot of work from you and investment from you to constantly be thinking about how do I help this person? Where are the challenges? How do I do it in a way that they're going to feel encouraged, like they have a path, like it's a lot of work to manage people and to build a really strong team, and so I think that's these are the type of things that come up which make it really challenging, because it's hard to not make it personal and you also will lose good people and that's like the hardest thing. But if it's the best thing for them, it's the best thing for the company. You should absolutely figure out how to do that.
Speaker 1:Yep Completely agree. And that's why I'm a terrible manager. By the way, you don't even talk to your employees.
Speaker 2:You're like give them an email at the beginning of the week. You say these are the things. Get them done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you know, I just tell them like if I have to talk to you this week, consider it a personal failure on my end. Like if you Slack me, it means you're incapable of doing your job.
Speaker 2:Like I see the dot dot, dot done, you're fired.
Speaker 1:Done. I'm just over it If I see the dot dot dot. You have ruined my day. I don't want to talk to you.
Speaker 2:I hope your team listens to this I really do.
Speaker 1:I do too. I actually encourage them to. They don't. So you know it's on them. It's on them for not knowing my very specific manic behaviors. You know I've given them all the opportunities in the world.
Speaker 2:They know this good and well of how you approach things, how you think about things. So if they haven't figured, that out by now. It's on them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I tell them, please leave me the hell alone, and they don't do that, then it's really on them.
Speaker 2:I mean, what do you do? What do you do in that scenario?
Speaker 1:What can anyone do? Just say sayonara, sucker, let's see cowboy away. Oh man, we're going to make the cowboy thing a recurring bit on the pod. I don't know why this is happening. You don't know Because what better way to represent corporate than the Old West, a better time when horse and carriage rag dust across the land?
Speaker 2:Grab your revolver, let's go get them, jimmy.
Speaker 1:Rustling up Going to the water hole. Water hole, I mean, that's like the old water cooler right the water hole, I would do it Slurping down a sarsaparilla. That's like an alcohol party at work, you know same.
Speaker 2:I mean, I honestly think you become a better manager when you just talk like that 24 seven.
Speaker 1:It makes you more approachable.
Speaker 2:Danny would agree. I bet, if we got his his understanding and said hey, if I just switch to being a cowboy, will my team perform better, he'd probably say yes well it's.
Speaker 1:It's so aggravating because when I talk to my team like a cowboy, they go to hr like and they, they, they say bruce is using terms that are no longer in vogue and should probably be managed. But uh, you know, here, here I am. I am rustling, rustling them, the cows are my team. In this case, I'm wrestling my caps, I'm driving the herd. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Wrestling the heifers on my team, cracking the whip, listen, I don't. I don't think saying wrestling heifers and cracking the whip is an HR violation. That's just me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's only an hr violation when I actually take out the whip and show it to the team, then it's then it's a problem it's reminded me of the scene in the show the office where the gun comes out you haven't seen this.
Speaker 2:No, what are? The one of the employees brings a gun to work because he's like. He thinks it's all like fancy and cool and he's got a little holster. He's like the sheriff and he's like work because he's like. He thinks it's all like fancy and cool and he's got a little holster. He's like the sheriff and he's like spinning around. He's like don't worry, it's not loaded, and eventually it just fires off in the ceiling. It becomes this huge HR violation.
Speaker 1:The gun's always loaded. The gun is always loaded. Just FYI For anyone who's never fired a gun or fires a gun every day the gun is always loaded and that should be the assumption.
Speaker 2:Yes, consider it loaded.
Speaker 1:Never put your finger in that trigger unless you're going to fire, yes, and never spin it around like a cowboy either. Like, let me just you know another piece of advice for all you cowpokes out there.
Speaker 2:Well, that was our topic. That was it. I appreciate talking about it, and if anybody has any other feedback or wants to discuss it more, please bring it to our discord. I would love to chat.
Speaker 1:I would love to revisit this once the issue has either resolved or not resolved itself. So do do let us know in the future how this turns out, because I need to know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll bring back the updates and, in the meantime, managerial tips. I'm going to go back, assess the behaviors, look at the competencies look at what they're currently working on, see if I can help identify those opportunities to break the bigger things into smaller chunks for them and see if they can do well creative problem solving and I think from there we can see how they do.
Speaker 1:I love it. I'm excited to hear about it. Hey, clark, hey, hey, it's for horses.
Speaker 2:Don't you? Oh no, no, you know what it's time for. What's that?
Speaker 1:We are way overdue. It's time for hashtag Is it Me or Is it Corporate? Oh, a game we play occasionally where you can submit an anonymous confession to our hashtag Is it Me or is it corporate? Channel on the discord, we have a confession from February 18th Anonymous confession Number nine. We're just a little bit behind, but I think it's a good one and I think we can knock it out. And then, what remaining time we have? A while ago, I took an assignment in another part of the company in order to develop new skills to bring back my old unit. Unfortunately, there were multiple HR foul ups with my personal file. The latest was that they overpaid my vacation pay, so now I have to pay back almost $1,500. Just a typical HR adventure, or is it corporate?
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:So what's your immediate reaction?
Speaker 2:to this.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:What's your immediate reaction to this? I mean so you went to another part of the company to learn new skills. Apparently, somebody must have told you to do that, or you did it on your own fruition, but I'm assuming approval was there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like it took an assignment. I mean, that sounds like there were things put in place for this to happen this way.
Speaker 2:And then HR just didn't properly track it. So even though you knew to do it, you took the assignment. Obviously, probably your manager knew about it. Hr didn't properly put it together.
Speaker 1:Correct and I'm guessing that they, you know, they track this is. This is not mentioned. I'm making an assumption here, but like, but I'm assuming they have listed time they could take off like a PTO pool and they saw hey, I've got two weeks vacay, I'm going to take two weeks vacay, but in their old role maybe it was only a week, just guessing, based on the $1,500 required back pay or or you know, clawback. That's going to happen here. And listen, if HR is not competent enough to manage this assignment, it shouldn't have been offered in the first place. And if you followed the book, if you requested the time off, you took the time off. It was in your pool. And then you come back and they're like oh, oopsie, oopsie, we didn't track this right, that's on them. That is the most corporate thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 2:I agree. I mean for me, like clawing back pay that's a. It's tough. Like if you give pay as a corporation, that means somebody approved it. Like to me, that means the right checks and balances have been done, we agree that their paycheck is going to have this bonus. Like if you were to give out a bonus and be like, oh shoot, we overpaid the bonus. Like that would be the most demoralizing thing in the world. Like something like this where it's like yeah, I took vacation, I got my pay. Now they're trying to claw back because they couldn't have it right between the two teams or whatever on if you could take vacation or not. I don't know if that's the actual case, but clawing back money from a giant, from a singular person, when you're a giant corpo, is awful. That's so corporate we've.
Speaker 1:We've talked about this before, but that is why I left sales. Yeah, they, they clawed back money because of a promotion which is like the stupidest thing, right, like, oh, because you moved from this territory into a global role, your quota got reset, pay back your bonus. Like excuse me, you promoted me, you moved me. Like this is because I was excelling, so now I'm punished for being good at my job. Like I tell you it, it soured me so hard on that that I was never able to like regain my morale and I eventually left sales forever. So don't claw back just if. If you're not capable of doing the math and the employee has done nothing wrong, never claw back.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now I say that to you, clark, and into the void that is corporate, knowing full well that they will never heed my advice, because the one thing corporate loves more than anything is a single penny on the table. They would take the penny on the table over any of us, 100%, and I don't know why penny on the table over any of us, 100%, and I don't know why that is. It's kind of disgusting, but that's just how corpos are.
Speaker 2:Money drives everything.
Speaker 1:You know. So, no doubt in my mind, this is a corporate.
Speaker 2:I agree. This feels, I mean, pretty confident. It's corporate. Just another tip for you. I mean, if you are like on a business trip or something and you're using your personal card for all your expenses which you absolutely should it's like if you have to eat, they sent you on this trip. If you have to eat, if you've got to transport somewhere, if you need to buy something for the event you're hosting or the business being like, you charge all that, they sent you on this.
Speaker 2:You didn't choose to do this out of your own pocket. Don't pay things out of your own pocket when you're on work trips. However, if you then go and buy like souvenirs for yourself, or you go to like something extracurricular that was, like you know, pretty expensive, like whatever might be a movie, or you know you went out and did something extracurricular way outside of where you were supposed to be. Now you're starting to go into, that is a personal charge and your company might not approve that. Some companies might, because they're like I don't care, you can do whatever you want. But I would say, if you're buying stuff that is personal gain and not tying to the business trip, they could try to claw back money, which in that case, I think they're warranted.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, in that case you took the money, right. Like you're taking the money and they're taking it back. But when you're given the money and then they take it back, that's the difference for sure. But like it's a, it's a good uh qualifier, I completely agree. Like, always spend corporate's money as if it was your money, because there's always the chance they don't approve the expense. So that's number one. And number two be logical about that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100% agree. That was great. We haven't had one in a while. That was awesome.
Speaker 1:I know If you want to do an, is it Me or Is it Corporate? Fair listener, lovely, lovely listener. All you have to do is do a forward slash, confess in the discord and you can join the discord by clicking the show notes. There's a link tree, a link tree. You click the link tree and then from there you'll you're able to join discord. Buy a baby onesie. You can go to our website. You can do a donation. You can donate to the pod I. I highly recommend it keeps the pot afloat. We're poor, we're very poor at corporate strategy.
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like we have a chart that's going on in our virtual office right now where Pepsi Man's at the top and we're doing a fundraiser, we're all the way at the bottom. We're at zero, pepsi Man's $190 away. I'm just saying if you contribute money, we'll buy Pepsi man, we'll buy Pepsi.
Speaker 1:Man, we'll do it. I mean, there are always other ways that we can make Pepsi man work. I'm just saying I'm not saying we're going to sail the high seas or anything like that, but when it comes to old games, you know you don't always have to pay for them. You don't pay money for them, don't always have to pay for them, you know you don't pay money.
Speaker 1:We're just saying the right thing, we're just the right thing, right the right thing, okay the right thing to do, like if you listen to a podcast and that podcast is free, but you know, maybe it's not free, maybe it costs money for the podcast to exist. Then you support the show. Do the link tree.
Speaker 2:Good plug, good plug. Keep this going, maybe we'll get some dollars.
Speaker 1:Cut that out. This podcast is sponsored by Rage. Don't do it. Do you want the latest orc warrior in your pool? Do you want to stomp the land with your heretic priest? Use code CORPORATESTRATEGY. Rage Shadow Legend.
Speaker 2:Enter in promo code CAC at CACC, you get 20% off your next battle pass.
Speaker 1:Make sure to get the latest gym cauldron so you can pull for the monolithic warrior. He's really gonna level up your game. You're gonna just stomp those elves. The eyeballs are gonna come out of their heads. Good promotion, go on, clark.
Speaker 2:I don't think I have anything left in the tank. This is why we balance each other out.
Speaker 1:Tanks are empty. Link trees on the show notes. You know how to get there. Hey, if you like the show, leave it a review. Please share with your friends. Please give us some money, please, please, please, please, but until next time, until next time when we see you, when we see you, I'm Bruce.
Speaker 2:And I'm Clark.
Speaker 1:And you're on mute. Please Next week, please.
