Deer hunting and liver talk

Speaker 1 0:03

Yeah , there are plenty of deer at this new place , whitetail doe . And then there was a buck , a little tiny buck that was around here earlier .

Speaker 2 0:13

Yeah .

Speaker 1 0:13

Yeah yeah , they call them spikes when it's just little tiny horns . They don't have any like split offs , yet they're called spikes .

Speaker 2 0:22

Oh , I wouldn't know any of this terminology . I'm a city boy . I don't know . You're called spikes . Oh , I wouldn't know any of this terminology . I'm a city boy .

Speaker 1 0:28

So I don't know .

Speaker 2 0:28

But education is real , Clark .

Speaker 1 0:30

Yeah , deer are real and one day you will go to my house and you will drive past probably 10 of them on your way .

Speaker 2 0:37

Just like so , like just easy prey right there , like available to you as you drive through .

Speaker 1 0:42

Yeah , yeah . What we do around here is we just swerve a little bit off the side of the road and you just give them a little hit and then you got dinner for the night . Pretty sweet deal I've had venison , chili , that's pretty good venison's great , it is good I've actually had it too .

Speaker 3 0:57

It's not bad yeah , I'll skip .

Speaker 1 1:00

Like the liver . I'm not really I'm not about the liver . Like the texture of liver just isn't my thing . I don't know if you guys have had it before , but everything else depends on the liver .

Speaker 2 1:09

Some livers are better than others . Um , really good for you . I've heard that . Yeah , I had um at um , what do you call it ? Oh , a monkfish liver . That was pretty darn tasty yeah .

Speaker 1 1:24

Yeah , fish liver , I bet , is pretty good .

Speaker 2 1:29

It was different . Yeah , the monkfish itself is weird .

Speaker 3 1:32

Oh yeah , yeah , yeah . Welcome back to Monkfish Strategy , the podcast . That could have been a monkfish , I'm Bruce .

Speaker 2 1:41

And I'm Buck . Who else we got ?

Speaker 3 1:45

I'm Alex . Welcome back to the pod . Alex , Welcome back . It's been too long . It's been an entire series .

Speaker 2 1:52

Yeah , it's been a minute . Lots of change . I know y'all been busy . I've been pretty darn busy , so it makes sense . It happens , life happens .

Speaker 3 2:01

Vibe check man .

Speaker 2 2:05

How you doing Exhausted in a good way . I started a new position at the beginning of the month , so at the beginning of August I transitioned into a leadership role here at my company and so I'm taking on a team of relatively early in career sales engineers and guiding them through being successful , being more productive , getting ready to get promoted , all that kind of stuff , all that good stuff , but , as a result , ultra busy all the time .

Speaker 3 2:32

And the dairy queen is lucky to have you .

Speaker 1 2:38

There we go , yep I mean , if you've seen his twisty treats , the cones and the swirls , they're just immaculate .

Speaker 2 2:48

Amen , you know quality matters right and then you take care of that , take care of your customer . The numbers will tend to themselves .

Speaker 3 2:55

We're going to have a banger quarter me here to rip on you , and I want to be conscious of all of our time . You've got some . Not only do you have some updates on life , but you've got some knowledge to drop on us , and we do love when you drop the knowledge on us .

Speaker 2 3:13

Yeah , so updates in life right Are , like I said , the new role right . So I've actually been in leadership before but I haven't been in . Oh , it's been 13 years since the last time I was in leadership 13 year gap yeah , I went back to being an individual contributor for not to be confused with a Discord member individual contributor . But I've been an individual contributor for the past 13 years , ever since I joined Big Corp over where we all met initially , and prior to that I had been in leadership for about three and a half years leading a pretty diverse and interesting team . But I had a great run as an IC , as we call , and happy to be back in a people leader role , mostly just to leverage the stuff I've learned from folks like previous podcast guest Danny Yonkers . In fact , I'm in a role a lot like the role he had when we all met him , and so for me it's just fun to be able to pay it forward in terms of the leadership I've received and the mentorship that I've received .

Speaker 3 4:17

Good question how much has your meeting load increased since you've been in management ?

Speaker 2 4:29

coming to management , probably at least three times . Wow , yeah , so each one of my sales engineers is working with a number of account executives the sales folks , right and each one of those have a couple hundred accounts that they're attending to and so you know , it's just like exponentially . You know , like the math goes crazy , like I don't know if you've ever heard the story about somebody saying , oh , I don't want a lot of reward for some great deed they did . You know they were going to be paid in rice and they say just give me one rice kernel here on this checkerboard of chess and then double it for every other checker in the stack , and then by the time there's 64 of these .

Speaker 2 5:05

By the time you get to the last one , it's like the number is larger than , like , the amount of rice that could fill the volume of the earth , or something stupid like that . It's a ridiculous number because people don't understand big numbers and exponents right , and so , at any rate , the math gets wonky , but my calendar is just jam-packed all the time . Yeah , I was going to say how long have you been in this role , this specific role ? Technically , I kind of got a running start at it because I was able to kind of do a soft transition right before officially cutting over , but I officially cut over August 1st .

Speaker 1 5:38

Okay , so yeah , still really , really new . Yeah , I was curious , you know , fresh perspective of switching from individual contributor back into management . You've done it before , so you kind of you know what you're doing , but did you feel like you were like , uh , I guess , overloaded when you first did it and you're like , holy cow , this is a complete change of what I was doing before . I don't know if I remember how to do all this successfully , or did you ? Just feel like yeah , you know .

Speaker 2 6:09

I've done this before . It's like riding a bike , it's a little bit of both , all right , and I think the difference is what my last role was . And so , even though I was an individual contributor , I was in an enablement role and I was helping enable sales engineers at my company globally , right . So , helping with taking new technology , translating it , helping new , higher SEs and having them ramp up all that kind of stuff . Those activities , a lot of that skill set is like , directly transfers over . So instead of doing enablement for you know , 280 , 300 SEs or whatever we have , I'm doing enablement for my five SEs , right . And so when you think about coaching and and developing your people , it's really enablement in just micro sessions , right .

Speaker 2 6:48

So it's like I I like to think of it like , instead of doing stage shows , you know , at like a casino in las vegas , I'm doing street close-up magic , right , like that's kind of my analogy that I have in my head in terms of what the role is , but that's kind of in the transition . Now there is stuff I've had to learn right , like reporting stuff and QBR , how to be ready for all that stuff and what leadership is looking for , yada , yada , yada , right . So there's definitely things that I've had to learn along the way and I'm still learning and I will probably continue to learn for a while still but the meat of what I have to do in terms of interacting with my team and helping them with what good looks like , since I've done the role myself at this company , I've been frontline at this company and I've also been working in enablement at this company two different roles so this is my third role now at this company . Those things have prepared me to really hit the ground running on that front .

Speaker 1 7:41

That's awesome . Yeah , I was thinking about that because I've never , after I went into management , I haven't gone back to being an individual contributor , and I think you've mentioned you know why you made that decision before , maybe on one of our prior episodes . But what was the motivation for switching now ? Was it a shit or get off the pot situation , or was it ? You know , it was just a better opportunity and you were excited about it .

Speaker 2 8:00

So , uh , it's funny , you ask right , Because Bruce and I are in another podcast , another Discord , together , and one of the guys in there he's another , he's a sales engineering manager and he asked me why would you do this to yourself , why would you punish yourself ? And I gave him the truth right . The true answer is I have two reasons for doing it right . One is , you know , be the change you want to see in the world , and I mean that in both the positive and the negative way . The positive way is optimistic , like you know , go out there and do something . You know that , like , if you think something needs to happen , go be the person that helps make that happen . Number one . But the kind of negative way and kind of cheeky way is , if you think you could do , if you're so much better and you could do such a better job , go , do it . Prove it right , like in your , my own head , right Like we .

Alex's new leadership role

Speaker 2 8:52

You've had an episode one time where you talked about like being a CEO and how neither of you would want to be a CEO . Well , at some point , though , you had to have had the conversation in your head . Do I want to be a people manager ? Because both of you have people and at some time you probably said , nah , I don't want to do that . And now both of you are in that role , and the question now only is do you want to continue doing what you're doing or do you want to eventually have even more responsibility ? And so I had to answer that question for myself . The second reason to do this was just literally to pay it forward . I've had absolutely top-notch mentors throughout my career , and at this company there's no exception . I've met tremendous leaders that have helped me learn and expand and be better as an SE , but also as a person just better human and I figured look , if I can help pay that forward in any way , I feel obligated to .

Speaker 3 9:42

It's awesome . I love awesome . Love that I mean . Personally speaking , I'd rather jump through a waterfall made of pure glass that's lit on fire than ever manage people again . But you know , it's uh , it takes its toll . Just give it time there .

Speaker 2 9:55

There's no doubt , there's no doubt um speaking of it taking its toll , it does bring , bring up the topic I wanted to bring everybody here , and so , in part , the way I pitched it to you guys originally and you all agreed , was , like you know , preparing right for failure , and so that's how I pitched it to you . But so the idea is that normally everybody prepares to succeed , you role , play out in your head what good is going to look like . But what happens when that doesn't go your way , right ? What happens when you receive adversity in some way shape or form ? You get turned down for the job , you get turned down for the promotion .

Speaker 2 10:36

You don't get the raise you think you deserved , right , you're selling and a customer says no . You're pitching a project as a product manager and leadership says no , we're not going to do that right now , or we're going to do it in a different way . Some roadblock hits the path and things aren't going as you planned . And so the

Preparing for failure and rejection

Speaker 2 10:53

question is right how do you prepare for that event ? Because it's inevitable that it's going to happen to you , right ? And so I guess first , you know , ask you guys the question just off the top of your head what do you think you got to do to be ready for that ?

Speaker 3 11:07

For me , rejection it almost feels a little bit like a callous , because I would say in my early days it hit me really hard when I'd have a really good idea or what I thought was a good idea , pitch it forward , put all this effort into the pitch , whatever it be . And then maybe someone says , let me go talk to leadership , let me take my time . Or they just come out and say straight up , nah , no , it's not gonna happen . It would crush me and I'd be like , well , you clearly don't see the value in like what I'm doing and what I'm thinking , what I'm saying . But over time and I think it it really started to change when I had to start rejecting ideas and things other people were saying Like .

Speaker 3 11:51

Now I like it truly does not phase me at all the word no , and sometimes it even excites me in a way . I'm like , oh , thank God they said no , we don't have to do this , this is someone else's problem , right , like it's . I've really done a 180 on rejection and the expectation of no . It's a lot of just sort of reasoning and rationing with my rationalizing with myself that not everything is going to be a yes scenario and no is okay . No means move on and do something else . It's not a uh , it's not an insult towards me , my ideas , what I'm trying to do , uh , so much as it is just a decision that was made and it's just business .

Speaker 1 12:26

So you kind of took the personal feelings out of it and you said , hey , you know , it's just business at the end of the day . You know I'm not tied to this personally . I think it's a good idea , but maybe there's something I don't know . It's a good way to look at it . Yeah , I agree with what you're saying like curiosity and jumping into those scenarios , knowing you don't know everything . Like a lot of the times when you're pitching to senior leaders , they have more context than you . And so I think once you realize that even when you go into a meeting and you kind of feel like you went in the wrong direction or you're pitching something that doesn't make sense , it's usually because you're not in the same rooms . They are , so you don't have the context that they , as leadership , are supposed to guide you with so that way you can present the right things . And so I look at it similar to that it's .

Speaker 1 13:08

You can't be prepared for everything because of layers of corporation . You're just not going to ever have all the knowledge to make every decision or always hit the nail on the head . But I think there's kind of two schools of thoughts you can look at it . You can say kind of like what you said , bruce it's . You can take the personal part out of it and just say it's business . I'm going to control what I can control . I'm going to crush it , I'm going to let what happens happens . I'm going to let the cards fall where they may .

Speaker 1 13:31

Or you can say I'm going to try to prepare for every scenario that could ever pop up , and I think the latter is a failed effort because you're never going to know all the context behind it , which is why I said what I said in the beginning . So I think I kind of do what Bruce said and I , very similarly , just control what I'm going to control . I'm going to make the best out of this scenario and if things start going in the wrong direction , I'm going to be curious , I'm going to ask questions , I'm going to say , hey , you know what I think I'm .

Speaker 2 14:09

You kind of played in a little bit into what I was talking about More . So I think , Bruce , I think Clark's perspective is like the process of accepting it and not taking it personally , which Bruce already talked about doing , but at some point , right , you're still going to be disheartened , I know for a fact . I'll give you an example . I'll say some words that are going to trigger Bruce . And that's okay , boomer , right ? So how do you deal with , like you know , like sometimes you put so much energy and effort into a project that becomes your baby and it gets rejected for what you know are no good reason ? There's no good reason , it is bad leadership making a bad decision and it happens All right . So how did you pick yourself up from that ?

Speaker 3 14:57

I mean , I can't . That was so long ago now . Well , oddly not , maybe not oddly there has been similar levels of rejection for things that I put the same amount of effort into multiple times , probably more than 10 since that rejection . And again , it is a little bit like a callus or a muscle the more it happens , I think , the better you get at it . And the funny thing is is , in some of the more recent examples , when I've been rejected for an idea or something that I've put a lot of effort into , sometimes it comes back like weirdly .

Speaker 3 15:33

And you know , for the one that you brought up , the OK Boomer example , which was a lot of work , a lot of money , a lot of energy , and it represented a lot of my core , who I am , of energy , and it represented a lot of my my core , who I am , what I think is good marketing , like what's a fun way to get a new idea out there . And it was . It was crushed in its entirety . You know it . I was upset and more than anything like in that moment I was just like , well , dang , everyone sucks but me clearly . Uh , this is , this is . It's not my fault that everyone's an idiot . I'm just surrounded by them , um , and you know that's a coping mechanism , clearly , but uh , at the same time , you know in , in retrospect , it was , it's great because it prepared me for the , the future of rejections to come there you go , there you go .

Speaker 2 16:21

So I'm gonna , I'm gonna eventually get to the , the real material that I want to share with y'all , uh , that you probably may already be familiar with . But before I do that , I want to use a history analogy , because I know there's , I think , at least one person listening that likes the roman empire stuff . Um and so , uh , there was a . So I listened to another podcast called tides of history . If you're a history buff , I think it's a good one . Anyway , he's going through from the beginning of mankind literally prehistoric fossil evidence , dna . He's gotten all the way up to the Roman Republic and at this point he's talking about why did Rome win ? In the Mediterranean , there was a lot of powers equivalent to Rome , and why did Rome win ? There was a lot of powers equivalent to Rome , and why

Rome's success through better losses

Speaker 2 17:29

did Rome win . And basically , it comes down to Rome was a better loser is why they ended up winning . I think it was something like 80,000 dead in one battle , the Battle of Cannae that is . I mean , to this day , the Battle of Cannae is studied by military folks of all kinds to see how Hannibal won that battle , because it's ridiculous . But that was only one battle , and they lost other battles where they lost tens of thousands to Hannibal in a five-year period , like in that war , in just that war . Right , had that happened to any other kingdom in the Mediterranean , it would have been all over , but for Rome it was never in question . Could Hannibal win the war ? He never could , because Rome could absorb losses . And so I think it's fascinating that Rome won .

Speaker 2 18:06

By the way , rome had good warriors . It wasn't like Rome was terrible at fighting . It wasn't like Rome had terrible generals . They had good generals and eventually they did produce some of the Africanas . But not the point . The point is absorbing losses and being able to bounce back is what led Rome to beat everyone else , including what eventually were the successors of Alexander in the East , where they were able to beat the Ptolemies , the Seleucids , all of those folks . And it all had to do with the fact that if they went into a big fight and they lost , they could come back the next year and the next and the next year , whereas all of their enemies , as brilliant as they were the second , they ran across one defeat . It was all over for them . And what you're telling me is that you were able to be successful in your career Because one defeat . For a while there you were in the doldrums , you were down on yourself , but eventually you formed the callus and now you're real good at taking those hits .

Speaker 3 19:00

Sure am .

Speaker 2 19:01

And look how successful you are . I would argue that at this point , right , that feeling you had that was incorrect . It was copium back then that no one else knows as much as me , and blah , blah , blah . Now you kind of are the most important person at your company . But I would argue it's the losses that made you better and made you that person in reality .

Speaker 3 19:18

But I would argue it's the losses that made you better and made you that person in reality . I couldn't agree more . I'm still like just shook by the 80,000 number . There's just a lot of lives .

Speaker 2 19:26

Yeah , if you ever get a chance , like if you want to know about one Roman battle ever , look up the Battle of Cannae and it's a battle they lost by a lot Like it was awful .

Speaker 3 19:41

It is staggering the amount of human life lost in that battle . It definitely minimizes the fact that I couldn't get a fun ad produced out you know , like on a scale of things .

Speaker 2 19:49

I feel like maybe I was a little overreactive with my so I always like adding perspective , right , we've talked about that before , right ? Like you know what's luck , what's not , but I'll tell you what's not luck , right , and that's what . The resilience that Rome had , the resilience you had , I think , comes down to a term that a particular professor and author coined , which was basically around grit G-R-I-T . Grit , around grit .

Speaker 2 20:18

G-R-I-T grit , and so if you haven't heard of her , her name is Angela Duckworth and she wrote a book on it . I'll share the book and her TED Talk with everybody in the Discord . I'll put it in the Corporate

Angela Duckworth and the power of grit

Speaker 2 20:35

Strategy channel . Really good stuff , her podcast . She also has a podcast called no Stupid Questions , which is an excellent name for a podcast , so if you ever get a chance , you can listen to that . I actually got that recommendation to listen to that one from an old coworker of ours , alexandra Alexandra Matheson , so she recommended that one . But regardless , I had already seen her TED Talk prior to that and her TED Talk just goes into .

Speaker 2 20:53

She had been an educator in New York City public schools and she was trying to determine what led students to succeed right , what led to positive outcomes in her students , and there's been a lot of debate in the deep , dark bowels of history . There was a lot of concerns around ethnic makeup , and that's obviously been debunked by statistics the hard way . However , there were still a lot of concern about just natively intelligent individuals like talented folks versus non-talented folks , and from her perspective , it wasn't even that , because there are plenty of talented folks who end up homeless . Right , that happens right For any number of reasons , and it wasn't even necessarily being wealthy , like you know , having a wealthy background or anything like that . The biggest differentiator she saw was folks that could bounce back from adversity right , and that's something that she called grit right , the ability to muscle through the hurt right , and the examples y'all have given are basically talking about that .

Speaker 2 21:52

And , for the record , I've had it too . Right , where you get turned down for a job you don't get , you know , the promotion you want . All that stuff , all those examples I gave , that's happened to me . Right . But you're right , don't take it personal . You're right . You know , figure out what you could have done better , figure out what was in your control , what wasn't in your control , and then do better on the stuff that you can control , right . All of that , I think , is so relevant right to how you persevere . I don't know if y'all had heard of her before or her TED Talk or her book . I'll pause and see where your thoughts are on that .

Speaker 1 22:25

I feel like I have listened to , at least maybe seen a snippet of the TED Talk , because as you're kind of talking through it , I'm like it's kind of coming back to me . I kind of remember this , so I'm going to have to go back and watch when you post it . But no , I don't think I've heard that specifically . But I agree with everything that you're saying and I think it's like the hardest part about it and I think why more people don't prepare themselves like you know the Romans , it's they're afraid to do it because it sucks .

Speaker 1 22:53

It sucks to get rejected , it sucks to be in that place and you know the reality of it is you have to put yourself out there into those situations so you can build that , that grit , that muscle , a little bit more . And I think that's what a lot of people like after they get rejected or face really hard loss . You know that's exactly what they . They have a choice to make .

Speaker 1 23:12

I'm going to do this again and I'm okay with the rejection , I'm going to learn from it . I'm going to bounce back , I'm going to start building more grit , or I'm just not going to do this again because it was scary , it was hard , like I don't want to put myself in that vulnerable position again and I think that's like the pivot point to you , to what you're saying around success . You know the successful people are the people keep on doing it over and over again , even though it sucks , even though it's going to hurt . You're going to build that muscle and you're going to learn something from it and you're going to be resilient and at the end of the day , you're going to find ways to make it or end up homeless I guess one of the two .

Speaker 2 23:44

Spot on . She has advice on how to build grit right , and part of that is stuff that we've already said . Another thing she talked about is like that concept of having passion right , so having like a North Star right that you follow . So like what is your north star ? So , like you know for , you know for , for bruce it may be like staying , you know , creative and having fun with things and not taking it too seriously . And if you can , you know , stay that way , you're going to be successful . Right .

Speaker 2 24:12

For clark it may be how do I , you know , develop my teammates or team members so that they're able to be the best selves and get promoted ? You tell me what your North Star is . I could tell you what mine is right . But regardless , whatever your North Star is , have one , and the reason that's important is when you hit those tough times you can bounce back . The Roman Republic had its North Star right . It had its different morals and ethical code and all that that made up the identity of what it meant to be Roman and that's what helped them absorb these losses . But I think for all of us , if you know who you are , deep down , it's going to help you deal with rejection and adversity right .

Speaker 3 24:50

One of the one of the cringiest things I've ever seen , but in retrospect maybe not . I mean it is cringy , but I'll let you decide . I had to sit through this negotiation training that was partially orchestrated by Chris Voss hostage negotiator . I'm sure you've you've heard of him before , this weird New Jersey guy who's like I don't negotiate with terrorists , kind of dude , kind of dude . But one of the things that they made made me deal with just everyone in the class had to deal with is like going through negotiations with people and basically like trying to get discounts on things . When you go to , you know , starbucks or wherever you are like , oh , can I get a discount ? And the idea behind this , this practice of like putting yourself out there , putting yourself in situations where you're trying to negotiate , everything you're doing is because the more you do it , the better you get at it and like I think it's cringe as all get out , but at the same time , I could acknowledge that it works .

Speaker 3 25:54

Um , I do think that there is like , like I said before , there's that muscle right when you get rejected , when you go out , when you're like , hey , I've learned how not to pitch that idea or I've learned how not to do that kind of work in the future . You do a sort of a win-loss analysis on why did this not work , and in the case of the OK Boomer ad , truly it was because timing came into play right when we started working on that ad . Ok Boomer wasn't a thing when the time we stopped working on it it was . And you know , something I've carried with me ever since then is don't delay when you can right Like . That loss taught me about the importance of like .

Speaker 3 26:37

Ideas have expiration dates and you never know when something's going to come and disrupt that idea and like . Yeah , force of nature can happen and it can totally throw things to the wind , but in practice I try to get things out quicker and quicker . Because of that , that , that failure , that rejection , and I think a lot of my rejections that I've encountered over the years carry with them a lesson . I could call it a scar , but it truly is a growing in me . How do I not run into this in the future ? How do I avoid this at all costs ? Moving forward and I think the same principle applies to anything , whether it's negotiation , creating new ideas , going off and building projects , pitching projects , selling the more you do it and the more you feel that pain of rejection , the more you're actually learning and the better you're getting .

Speaker 1 27:24

You know it's funny . I have a personal anecdote because , like I said , I'm in a different spot because we just moved , but I was going through the process of canceling my internet service provider and my cable provider and it was so funny Like this . Is this kind of ties to like ? Nobody likes having those hard conversations and negotiating , like you were saying , bruce , because the second I called him , they're like , hey , we can like lower your monthly bill by $50 .

Speaker 1 27:50

And we can upgrade your internet service and your cable package for no additional charge . And it was just because I wanted to cancel . Like I should have called them three years ago when I first signed up with them and been like , hey , I'm going to cancel , I'm like gotten $50 off plus better service . Like I should have done that in the first place . But that's their tactic , because they know so few people are going to do that that they can continue overcharging people and having , you know , being able to mitigate their losses for that cost by keeping existing customers on . And so to your point about , yeah , nobody likes doing that . It's true , nobody likes having those hard conversations and negotiating , and it does flex that muscle a little bit . Now I'm about to call every single service provider . I have my phone bill . I'm going to call my water bill . I'm going to be like , hey , I'm canceling and see if they offer me a better deal .

Speaker 3 28:38

Well , and I mean that's something better too , right , like you know , keeping with the OK Boomer example that was brought up earlier , you know , I think a path that could have been taken by leadership is say no , do it better , do something even more . You know ridiculous , just don't lean into this thing . That's a little bit politically sensitive at the time . That wasn't the outcome , but I do absolutely believe that on the sending end , the rejecter can use no as an opportunity for betterment of both the person they're rejecting as well as themselves .

Speaker 2 29:13

Awesome , and I love that . You segued into my next point , which is Angela Duckworth actually has a sequel to her book and it's called now the Limits of Grit , basically , and it's just talking about how grit isn't enough . It's not everything , and I got to agree with her and I think she's going to have her own take . I haven't read the second book , I'll be honest with you , so I don't want to speak for her , but I can tell you what my take is right , and that's you took what was a bad experience and now you look at it as a positive experience . It's a choice you made and I would argue that having optimism , right , and trying to see the value is the other half of this , of this .

Speaker 2 29:56

You know coin , right ? So grit is just being able to deal with the fact that you're in a negative situation

Optimism and thriving from failure

Speaker 2 30:01

or you have been dealt a bad hand , and getting over it and just moving on . But optimism is saying what can I take from that ? Right , instead of just surviving ? Right , how do I thrive as a result not in spite of , as a result of the negative experience , right ? What can I learn from that ? And I got to tell you , if anybody's out there struggling to find a job . I think that this is so hard to do in the moment , like if you've been looking for work for two , three months a year some folks out there and you're still struggling . I think finding that optimism gets harder and harder every day . But if you can do it , you're gonna be so much better off when you do get into that interview with the next job and the one after that , anyway . But I just thought that your example there , bruce , was spot on in terms of taking a negative experience and again , don't just survive it , thrive from it .

Speaker 3 30:52

I mean think of all the available housing after that battle .

Speaker 2 31:01

You know what ? That reminds me of the economic boom that happened after the bubonic plague in europe . Like the middle class saw a flowering that hadn't happened in centuries after the bubonic plague . You're actually not wrong . It was a terrible , terrible thing that happened , but , oh man , this quality of life for the survivors was excellent . I thought you were going to say something totally different .

Speaker 1 31:21

I thought you were going to say think of thing that happened , but , oh man , this quality of life for the survivors was excellent . I thought you were going to say something totally different . I thought you were going to say think of all the single people that are now available in your area ?

Speaker 2 31:29

Man , my chances just went up to go ask Valeria or whatever .

Speaker 1 31:38

Yeah , my Tinder is boiling up .

Speaker 3 31:40

So , many singles in my area . But I mean , it's so true and honestly , I think it's one of the most important things that I have learned in my career of being stuck in the corporate hellscape is learning to be positive about things that are inherently not positive and being able to find good takeaways in this environment . Like , yeah , I get down just like everyone else , as you hear on the podcast when I'm talking with Clark at the beginning of each episode . But it is so important for not only my mental well-being but also for my professional growth and success to be able to find the positive and not only find it but use it as a weapon and you absolutely can , absolutely .

Speaker 2 32:24

And it brings us full circle to the very beginning of the podcast . In my new role , I'm hiring right , or at least I will be right , because I'm going to promote people . People are going to leave my team and get promoted in somewhat the near future . It's just figuring out exactly when right , but regardless , I'm going to be promoting and I'm going to leave my team and get promoted in somewhat the near future . It's just figuring out exactly when , right , but regardless , I'm going to be promoting and I'm going to be hiring right . Terrific , what am I looking for ? I'm looking for someone that has grit , is positive , is coachable , is willing to learn .

Speaker 2 32:52

I don't need someone who knows our technology . I need someone who can learn , because our technology changes every quarter , right ? The business world is moving too fast , and so I'm not looking for what you know , I'm looking for what you can learn and I'm looking for how you do that Right , and so all of these lessons , it's going to help you as like , like I said earlier , as you're looking for that job , because I'm probably not the only one looking for these qualities . If I had to guess , y'all hire right . What are y'all looking for when you go to hire ?

Speaker 1 33:19

Yeah , yeah , I think very similar to what you're saying and for me , I really like people with diverse backgrounds because it shows they're willing to step into something new , not be afraid to take on a challenge and you know they they might fail . I think I've hired some really interesting people that were like teachers in the past and were like hey , teaching was great . It was a lot of fun teaching those kids , but , to be honest with you , I didn't get paid anything for the amount of work I was doing . So I stepped into tech and now I'm making way more money and I'm getting fulfillment out of the roles that I've been doing . So it's always just interesting to see that diverse background , which I think builds character in people and gives them a wide perspective on things that make them successful in product management in my case .

Speaker 2 33:59

Yep .

Speaker 3 34:01

And I just like people who are smarter than me , because it means I don't have to do as much work . Fortunately , there's a long list of those folks out there . I just got to find the pay range and get them in the slot .

Speaker 2 34:12

You know what's funny ? First of all , I also like working with people who are smarter than me and , second of all , I want to hire people who are comfortable working with people that are smarter than them . I don't want to hire the person that thinks they're the smartest person in the room . I don't want that person . I want someone who is smart , can learn , but is actually excited about the prospect of learning from their peers . That's the personality you want to hire , or at least I think so . I don't know , your mileage may vary .

Speaker 2 34:43

I actually , oh , go ahead . But I think you actually oh sorry , I was gonna say you yeah , I think you talked about this on a podcast a long time ago , like years ago , where you know the , the , you know the personality that is the rock star but is poison to the team versus , you know hiring people who aren't rock stars but all gel together and which one's going to do better right , and I think you've talked about , you've played this out already and , for the record , I completely agree with what your takeaway was was I would take quote unquote B players that are B players in terms of technical talent but a players in terms of collaboration , positivity , you know , focused on goals , all that kind of stuff all day , every day , absolutely .

Speaker 1 35:22

Yeah , a hundred percent , yeah , over . You know the , the 10,000 Xer who can do everything but has a giant ego or doesn't work with others Like there's , there's really , especially when you're a manager , there's no place for that on a team . You know people look at that and they're like , oh yeah , I see the short term upside , cause they can help us get through this project or get past this milestone , but then ultimately it just builds a cancer inside of the team and it doesn't ever end well in my experience .

Speaker 3 35:49

Yeah , I don't think it's fixable the way that you can take a B player and turn them into an A player . It's weird that that is the case . I feel toxic personalities are just such a hard thing to wrangle thing to wrangle and I can't think of a single example where I've ever seen a toxic personality in my personal work

Hiring for grit and positivity

Speaker 3 36:11

experience turn around and become something good .

Speaker 2 36:13

I think it is possible , but it takes so much effort , right ? And then think about all the cycles you're spending on that one person versus helping out the rest of your team , right ?

Speaker 3 36:22

Yeah , the cost analysis is just not there .

Speaker 2 36:26

Exactly , and so , ultimately , this is something that that person needs to come to terms with .

Speaker 2 36:32

I'm obviously not going to talk about names or anything like that , but , like there's someone that I had had to let go of a position in my last go around as a leader , so over 12 years ago , right and I ended up working with them at another company and I saw them in the break room and I was like , oh boy , this is going to be bad , right , like I had to , you know , you know , process this person out of the previous company , right ? They're they're probably not a big fan of me and I wouldn't blame them , right ? Um , they talked to me and and I said , how's it going ? And they said , actually , great , uh , I know that I was messing up at that previous company , but I'm so happy over here and I'm just doing better work now and I'm actually pleased with how the direction my life's taken , so thanks , and so kind of sort of thanked me for firing them , and I want to be clear that only kind of sort of .

Speaker 2 37:20

I don't think they literally said those words , but what they said was they were actually better off as a result of being let go of the previous role , because they learned something from that right . Why was I let go ?

Speaker 3 37:32

I absolutely believe that , and I think that that ties into exactly what you know , angela duckworth , and you've been talking about this whole time is like taking that moment of rejection and being able to earn something with it . Not just let it define who you are , but become something more because of it .

Speaker 1 37:53

Sometimes it's just a wake up call , like that's all you need . Is that really big wake up call to be like man ? Maybe it is me , like , maybe I am doing something wrong . You know , after you might be an incredible individual contributor but you've been , you know , laid off from two previous roles . Maybe you got to look internally and say maybe it's something I'm doing and I think that's awesome , because I have had situations like that before , that I've let people go because of big egos most of the time . Or you know certain ways that they work with people and unfortunately I haven't had the full circle moment yet , but I can kind of see , you know , in the way this person's interacting with other companies and what they're posting online , that I'm like I see them turning . So maybe that turning point is coming . But , to your point , it's going to take a long time to really get over that hill and be in a place where they're going to be successful wherever they are . So fingers crossed , I'm hoping , hoping it'll work out for them .

Speaker 2 38:41

Yeah , I mean , I genuinely wish the best for everybody I meet . So absolutely , I completely agree with you , yep .

Speaker 1 38:47

I had one closing brain teaser because we only have a couple minutes . Okay , so you have the rejection turned positive . I see the opportunity . I see how we can improve . I'm going that direction . You have the way you can go and be a negative Nelly . You can say , hey , that really sucks , like , I'm not putting myself out there again . I the way you can go and be a negative Nelly . You can say , hey , that really sucked Like , I'm not putting myself out there again . I'm going to avoid these types of meetings . The situation , never doing it again . What about just being like , yeah , it's cool . Whatever , you know , I don't really care . I mean it's , it's stoicism , the right word . And what are the pros and cons of doing that versus the positive ?

Speaker 2 39:18

I would argue a true stoic would be the former example , which is to say what can I learn from that ? How can I react better next time , right ? So , like a real stoic understands that it's not , it's not about not caring , it's about recognizing that the only thing you control is how you react to stimuli . That's true stoicism . True stoicism isn't being blasé or inert to the world . It's not being , you know , deadened , you know , in terms of nerves or feeling or anything like that . That's not stoicism , that's laconicism , which is something else entirely being laconic , being laconic and being stoic are actually different .

Speaker 2 39:52

The stoic philosophy , again , is about reaction to stimuli , and that that's what you can control , and so that's what I would argue . What you described is being like the dude right , like the dude abides right , and look , if that's actually how you feel and it's not just you know , copium , great , right . I would argue , though , that that person probably doesn't have the drive to be like really successful out there in the world , like they're going to reach a certain level of success and just kind of coast and that's okay , perfectly fine . The world needs all kinds of folks out there , right ? But if you're someone who has aspirations to bigger and better things in their career . I would argue that's not the right disposition to have .

Speaker 3 40:35

And I completely agree . The only thing I would add is I don't think those kind of people are going to be the ones going out of their way to pitch new ideas or try different things in the first place , because they're yeah , what is , you know , like that's just , that's not the kind of attitude and energy that that really tries to set up for success or , you know , attempt something that might fail . They're they're not risk averse . That way , they're very much just like comfortable and and coasting Again , not a bad thing . I very much wish I could get to that space in my own life where I can just kind of comfortably coast one day . It's the dream , but not today , right ?

Speaker 2 41:15

I don't know man , I'm working harder than I have in a while in this current role and I'm having so much fun . I'm getting fulfillment out of my job right now . And so I don't know man , like I don't know , that I want to coast .

Speaker 3 41:28

I felt that way for the first year or so of my new job . Yeah , I feel you .

Speaker 1 41:38

What's the saying ? It's you know , the true joy is working , but not feeling like you're working . You know what I mean ? It's just living life . When you're in that state of mind , that's when you fit nirvana .

Speaker 3 41:52

What if you're not working and you feel like you're working ?

Speaker 1 41:55

Yeah , what if I'm sleeping and I ?

Speaker 3 41:57

wait for therapy every day yes .

Speaker 2 42:04

Do we need a real-life vibe check , like a wellness check , like are you all right , bruce ?

Speaker 1 42:10

well , I told him the last time I'm good . I told you I'm gonna show up at your door like I'm like this close to showing up at your door with a box of cookies , just to make sure you're doing all right yeah , but you live like a hundred miles away .

Speaker 1 42:20

Now he really does like deep into the interior of the hinterlands you have to actually like george of your jungle through a jungle , uh , to get to clark's home I'm surprised he has internet you know , it's hilarious because now I think I had better internet than I did before and I'm even more more into the the winterland out here

Wrapping up and community updates

Speaker 1 42:45

well , I know we're coming up on time , so one I want to thank you for joining us again , alex .

Speaker 3 42:50

It's always good to have you on and you know I'm not going to throw this out there per se , but you know you have set the qualifications for what you're looking for Now . If you heard this podcast and you're like maybe I'm the kind of person that would you know , thrive and flourish on Alex's team Guess what ? You can actually message and talk to him on our Discord . You can join the Corporate Fam , which is our podcast that we all participate in , or podcast it's our community we all participate in , and you can get there by going into your show notes , clicking on all the links and joining the Discord . Hop in here . You can chat with any of us and if you're looking for work , we might be able to help find you something . Whether or not it's with any of us or someone else in the community , it's a great place to hang and we all focus on both personal and the growth of our community . Clark , what else we got going on ? You nailed it .

Speaker 1 43:45

Like , share , subscribe . I'm not going to name names , but someone's buying the baby onesie . We have a merch shop and someone's buying it . We have Erd . This is huge . Someone is buying the baby onesie and I cannot wait for this to happen . It's happening . So we've got a shop . Go on there . We've got a bunch of cool swag and stuff like that . You can support Bruce if you want to give him a dollar or two for all his funding of this podcast . For the last what ? How many years ? Five years now , he has solely paid for everything and I've done nothing . Actually , I bought myself my own mic and I've contributed nothing else to this podcast .

Speaker 2 44:19

Somebody put up a baby onesie . Does your wife have some news to share with the team here , Clark ?

Speaker 1 44:26

It is not me , it is not my wife , it is an actual listener of our podcast .

Speaker 3 44:32

That's a fair call out , because they reached out basically asking if we had more options for the baby onesie , and good news is we actually have a lot of options for the clothes and swag that we can create the episode that I should have posted today that hasn't been because Buzzsprout's been down all day , but it'll be up soon . We mentioned this and I'm just going to mention it again in case you didn't listen . We can actually create more corporate strategy , adjacent swag gear , whatever the heck you want to call it . It's completely nonprofit for us , so we keep the prices as low as we possibly can for you .

Speaker 3 45:02

But if you want a fun shirt and I put Clark on the job of creating us some new logos , taglines , catchphrases that we can put on clothing let us know in the Discord and we can go and create those things , because there are so many things we could put clothes on , like those little slap wrist brace bracelets . We can get our logo on there , why not ? And you know , I think that's as good a place as any to call it End on the capitalism note , even though we profit nothing . Thanks again , alex , for joining us on the pod . We love you , we appreciate you and we thank you for the topic . As always , I'm Bruce and I'm Clark and you're on mute . We'll see you next week .