SPEAKER_03: 0:11

I don't know what that is. I think that's a duck. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but that's a duck.

SPEAKER_00: 0:26

No, it's not. Interrupting duck.

SPEAKER_01: 0:32

Interrupting duck. You missed your chance. Failure.

SPEAKER_00: 0:40

Oh, got him. Live on the air. Welcome back to Corporate Strategy, the podcast that could have been an email. I'm Bruce. And I'm Clark. Hey Clark, guess what? What's that? Secret Pod. Ooh, Secret Pod. Secret Pod. Tell me more. Tell me more. Some of the people are wondering. Some people, some, some of the people were messaging me on Twitter asking me, Bruce Bangers, saying, Hey, where was last week's pod? And I like, you didn't hear it because it wasn't on the feed. It was a secret pod. A secret pod. It was too personal. Too secret. So where is the only place you could see, listen, listen to the secret pod, Clark E boy? Clark Kitty.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30

Thank you for correcting that. If you didn't say Clark Kitty, I was gonna be so disappointed in you. Yeah, you got it. Well, Bruce Baby, listen to this. It's on our Discord. It's on our Discord.

unknown: 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45

That is where you can find it. The Secret Pod. I also had people reaching out to me saying, where's the episode? Are you guys just skipping this week? And I said, no. You gotta find it. And it's hidden on our Discord. And it's so easy to join. You just scroll down. Scroll down. No, do it. Do it. Scroll down. Okay. No, you. I'm looking at you. Do you do it with your finger? I'm okay. There you go. There it is. I see it.

SPEAKER_00: 2:09

I see it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:10

There's a there's a link tree. L N K T R E E. Click on that, and then there's a link to join our Discord. You just hit the join Discord. It's literally one click. That's it. I'm clicking, but nothing's happening. Oh, wait, it's my internet. I think it's your internet, sorry. Yeah, it'll work if you have internet. You know, what you just did, I think is indicative of what our society will be once we move phones to our faces with glassware, and everybody's just scrolling like this with their fingers in mid-air, and they're doing these wrist gestures, and you're like, what are you doing? And the reality is they're controlling what's on their eyes.

SPEAKER_00: 2:44

Have you ever seen um the videos of the kids who can do the math? Like math, like like a math athlete, but like to the next level. I don't know how to say this without using words that I feel like might offend people. Um there are children who are incredibly smart and they are able to do math, but if you ever watch them do it, they're like shaking their hand in the air, right? Like they're literally just poking an invisible screen in the air. Have you ever seen that before? I have. I know what you're talking about. I've seen that. Do you know what they're doing?

SPEAKER_01: 3:17

No, I mean I imagine they're writing down the equations.

SPEAKER_00: 3:21

No, it's so much more interesting than that. Really? So, uh, yeah, what they're doing, you're familiar with an abacus, I'm sure. I'm sliding. What child doesn't know what an abacus is, right? So these kids basically have a virtual abacus. So they're able to do computations in the air. The the shaking of the hand is them moving the beads on the abacus. No. So they'll they'll watch a screen and the screen will flash all these numbers at them, like and you know, maths plus 472, minus 369, plus 27, like and they're they're abacusing. That's that's exactly what they're doing. And part of the the way it works, the way they're able to do math so quickly, is because they've they've mastered the abacus. The hand movement is connecting like the brain capability of doing that math. It's so cool. These kids are like wizards.

SPEAKER_01: 4:17

That's insane. Yeah, it is. That feels like the most ineffective way to do it. I think it's actually the most effective way to do it. Maybe. Maybe, but you think like times table. Well, you know, we do math wrong. Maybe that's what the issue is. Maybe we're just we learned math wrong.

SPEAKER_00: 4:38

And if you if you look at kids' math today, I think it's what's common common core or whatever it is. Um, they're they're actually learning math more in an abacus style of way versus how we learned, which is like you learn your multiplication tables, right? You memorize all these six times eight is 48. Oh, I know that. But like you don't know how that is. You just know what it is. And the way they're teaching math today, it's more about the how and like getting the brain to do math appropriately versus just memorizing outcomes, which kids like us did.

SPEAKER_01: 5:16

That's so interesting. Yeah, but it's so true because it's like the second you go over the 12 times tables, you're like, 13 times 14 is what like it's impossible to do because you you don't, yeah, you didn't memorize it. Right. But if you actually knew like realistically what you're doing and how to break that down into smaller pieces that you can actually do in your head, like that's a much more effective way. Because what I do in those situations is you take the closest thing yet you know, and then you just add the additional stuff on top of it. And the abacus maybe is the right way.

SPEAKER_00: 5:46

The abacus has always been the right way. We were wrong, they were right, uh, we were bad. And now the new kids are learning good, so good for them. I'm happy. I'm happy to know the next generation of adults in the corporate workplace will at least know how to do math good. Because I can't. I'm terrible at it.

SPEAKER_01: 6:04

We can only say this just because we do have a lot of European listeners. We can only say this for Americans. You may have done it right. In your learning, you may have done it right. But in America, in our demographic, we learned it wrong.

SPEAKER_00: 6:17

Right. I mean wrong.

SPEAKER_01: 6:19

I mean right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:20

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 6:20

Yeah. Double negative, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 6:22

Affirmative.

SPEAKER_01: 6:23

Yeah. You know, this actually goes right into our topic. No way. Because how are you gonna make that happen? You're not gonna do it. If we only pushed back on the people that told us that multiplication tables and memory memorizing those were the way to do math, then maybe we would have flipped the whole thing on its head and been able to learn the right way to make us more effective and productive in the real world.

SPEAKER_00: 6:50

I like your optimism. I really do. I really do. That's great. Let's let's let's run with that. We could have changed the world if we only pushed back.

SPEAKER_01: 7:00

Sometimes you've got to manage up, and that is the day's topic. Manage that up. Nice. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, we we had a little bit of a break, we did a secret pod, and we did not get back to managing up. But what led us into this? What was the topic that led into managing up? I totally how am I forgetting two episodes before this?

SPEAKER_00: 7:22

Uh, we were talking about you know getting promoted, getting you know, plans, and you know, how how you how you ask for a promotion or how you can even grow at a remote office, right? All of these kind of things, yeah. Yeah, with Sarah, right?

SPEAKER_01: 7:38

Sarah brought up that topic. She was like, I saw something around um, can you actually grow meaningfully in your career if you're remote? And that well, that's what kind of led us down the path. It was a really fun episode of like, is it possible to grow? And I think uh to to spoil it, you should go back and listen to the episode, but to spoil it, we both said, yes, we do think in this day and age you can meaningfully move up in your career, but it does depend on your overarching company and if they have a physical presence or if they are you know completely hybrid. That's a very important factor. But then at the end, we basically got into it's not all about what you do, it is about the manager and them create opportunities for you or opportunity or you know, areas where you can grow too, because if they are constantly capping you to be able to grow, then there's no way you're going to be achieved be able to achieve whatever career goals that you have.

SPEAKER_00: 8:29

Yep. It's that's such a necessary skill. And I think it's one that is not uh it's not a magical salve, right? Like there's there's no promise or yeah, you bite into that meat chomp. There's no promise or guarantee. I was talking to our audience, not Clark, by the way. Okay, uh, there's no guarantee that anything we tell you today is actually going to work, but it's still a necessary skill, and knowing how to approach it and do it is very important.

SPEAKER_03: 8:57

Yeah, it's one of those things that it can go very wrong. And it's really scary. It can be scary.

SPEAKER_01: 9:08

Like doing this is not easy to do, and especially when you're early on in your career, like you don't understand that that's even necessary. Because you just assume your manager is gonna do all these things for you. And the reality of it is they're not gonna do anything unless you get a really good manager for you at all. Yeah. And I think that's like the crappy part that like I'm thinking about now. It's we have to set the context of before we go into this, what are the signs where you need to do this, maybe? And uh what are the signs that you shouldn't do this, even though you probably need to do this? What comes to mind for you? What is the sign you shouldn't you shouldn't manage up? What kind of scenario would you put yourself in?

SPEAKER_00: 9:54

I think toxic or hostile management, where if you're in a micromanagement environment or if your manager is constantly critical, criticizing, uh belittling you, it it if you're stuck in one of those scenarios, managing up is only gonna hurt you more than it's going to help you. Um, I think that's the clear-cut, easy answer. It gets harder when you have a manager that cares about you, or maybe like is very invested in you and they have a plan for you. Then managing up can also hurt you because you might be conflicting with their vision for your growth, and they could see it as not having trust in them. I think the easiest place where managing up actually works is when you have sort of a let's say more autonomy-oriented manager that really has not overly invested in you, but also micromanaging and is more just like, hey, if you want to take this off my plate, by all means go ahead and do it, right? Like that's your golden window to get in there and really make a name for yourself by doing some some upward management tasks. Do you think it's all about ego?

SPEAKER_01: 11:08

Like, is it about assessing the ego of your manager?

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

I think everything is about ego in corporate.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

If you really step back and think about it, everything.

SPEAKER_00: 11:19

Everything, like truly every single operation of existing in corporate to some extent, is either dealing with an overly active or lack of ego.

SPEAKER_01: 11:31

Yep. Yeah, it's those are the things that I think you gotta look for in the managing up scenario. It's like if your boss always takes the credit, no matter what, like never credits a team, is always like, oh yeah, you know, I did such a good job on this, look at what I'm doing and my team is accomplishing, but never like, never puts the spotlight on you to be like, well, Bruce Baby did all the work here. Like, I don't don't give me the applause. Give it to Bruce Baby, he's the one who did all the work, and giving you the opportunities to shine. If it's never there for you, like the ego of your manager, if you try to go to them and be like, hey, I want or I think you know, it'd be really great if you give me the opportunity to speak at this, it's just going to get bad real quick. They're not gonna see what you're trying to do by creating opportunity for growth for yourself or to expand your skill set or whatever it is. Your egotistic manager is not going to help you in this path. And there's no managing up there, unfortunately. You gotta just do whatever they say. I also think to your point, like command and control, micromanaging, telling you exactly what needs to be done, always solving problems instead of asking you to solve them. Like that type of scenario is a perfect example where it's like, don't do this. That's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_00: 12:45

Oh, I think that's that's actually a really good sort of entryway into the managing up functionality set. What what you just said. We love to bring problems to our managers, right? Like, oh, dude, you would not believe what Janice did. Like, Janice is just the worst at her job, fumble the TPS reports. Again, can you believe it? Janice sucks so bad. Versus, hey, I've noticed that Janice is having a really difficult time when it comes to TPS reports. And I root I root caused it, and it turns out the way that we're actually doing TPS reports is it's non-intuitive. Do you mind if I go and build uh just some training and enablement around how to receive and you know submit a TPS report for all of our employees and run them through it? I think it would help both folks understand the task as well as it would help you uh get what your desired outcome is from sending out the reports in the first place.

SPEAKER_01: 13:49

I love so many aspects of that. And if you abstracted it away from like down to the basics of what you just did, you identified a problem that needs to be solved that your team is responsible for, and someone's responsible for adjacent to your team. Yep, or someone manager in this case, right? And it's it got a meaningful impact. So you identified this is the problem, I understand why it's important, and if we fix it, here's the result that I could see us having. Like those three things are so key to being able to manage up, and then ancillary to that, you're creating a pathway for you to receive visibility and to have a bigger impact at your organization by taking on work outside of just your day-to-day. And that's where you're looking for the your manager in a good scenario to be like, actually, yeah, that's a great idea. Like then we can get you, you know, in with this team, you can be able to demo this. And as a good manager, they're gonna find opportunities to be like, absolutely. In our next town hall, if it goes well, let's bring up the success story of how we did this and how it made a difference and really highlight you. Like a good manager will do that, and you're kind of just bringing the opportunities to the table for them to do that. And so the good manager will, you know, expand upon your idea or give you guidance to say, actually, there's something bigger than that. Like, what if you did this instead? And so a good manager is going to look for the bigger opportunities that you don't have purview to to expand the purview that you have. I love that.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

Yeah. And I think that's that is the perfect opportunity for managing up, is when you identify a challenge, you come up with a solution, you present said solution, and then see if you can get an opportunity to go and and and take care of it yourself, right? Because you're taking work off your manager's plate by doing this, you're potentially improving their well-being and their sort of mental stability at their job, but you're also likely going to help others around you. And that's the whole reason why we do it, right? Managers like Clark and I are not perfect and we make mistakes. And I love when my team comes to me with solutions to problems and it's like, hey, can I like yeah, go? Do do whatever you want to do. I it was a terrible idea. I want you to do it anyway. I don't care. Like, it means so much because you know, we did our appreciation series, acts of service. Managing up is absolutely an act of service with your manager.

SPEAKER_01: 16:17

Yeah, 100%. Another great example is like if you have one-on-ones with your manager, say, hey, I know in every single one-on-one, you're always asking about like the status of projects. If you want the most real-time statuses, I actually built you a Jira dashboard. You can check it at any time to see how we're progressing towards our goal. Like then I knew, like, I observed something that they're obviously interested in. I already created a solution that's pretty easy for me to do, and I'm providing value to them. And like all those things are great opportunities to you know, show that to your manager that you're willing to go the extra mile so that hopefully they will be able to open more opportunity for you. Or then every single conversation, you don't have to give your status report. You can talk about more meaningful things so you open up more room to talk about managing up or getting more opportunity or whatever it is. Agree. Completely agree. I love that. I'm thinking about another scenario too. So as the manager, and maybe we put ourselves, let's put our manager's shoes on. You got your shoes on? I'm looking for your manager's shoes. Are they there? Oh, yeah, he's got he's got no shoes on, and that's the way managers roll. I never have shoes on. I walk around barefoot in the office every day. Put your get your nasty feet off the camera. They actually weren't nasty.

SPEAKER_00: 17:32

Can you imagine if we live streamed this show and everyone just got an unabashed view at the bottom of my foot for 15 seconds? People pay for that, by the way.

SPEAKER_01: 17:41

They do, which is I'm giving it to you for free. What a world we live in.

SPEAKER_00: 17:45

Those little piggies. They went to the market and went wee wee wee all the way home.

SPEAKER_01: 17:50

They really did. At least they were clean. I mean, that's debatable, but yeah, I'll take it. We're going back to managing up, I'm thinking about other opportunities too, where it's like you're feeling stunted in your growth and you're doing everything. Like you're going to your manager, you're saying, hey, all the you know, all the things you want me to achieve, I was able to accomplish. Like, I feel like I'm ready for this next step, this next promotion. And then they're like, Well, you know, I don't know if you have enough visibility. Like, I don't think we're going to be able to swing it this year. That's the perfect opportunity to start that managing up conversation, being like, okay, yes, you know, is there anything you can do to help me get more visibility? Like putting it back on your manager. And like when I have my managers on shoes on, it's like, I sometimes don't think about those things that I may be doing that is getting in the way of my team because it's just so, you know, rhythmic and you know, so uh cycle of the project or whatever that I'm just so used to running something when in reality I actually need to step back and let this person run the meeting. And so an employee coming to me to your point earlier about taking work off your plate and saying, Hey, you know, this meeting, I know you run it every time, but I think I'm ready. Like, how about you let me try running it this next time? And like that to me is like the best feeling in the world. It's like, oh my goodness, that'd be incredible that I don't have to prep, I don't have to get the slide deck, I don't have to coordinate the material, I don't have to be on for this meeting. I can just let you drive and be a supporting actor rather than a driver. Like, that is like the perfect opportunity for you to step in to take something off your manager's plate and to get more visibility that will hopefully get you, you know, to whatever your your career goal is.

SPEAKER_00: 19:23

Couldn't agree more. It's also, I think it's a relationship builder, right? Like there might be a reason your manager isn't, and this is I hate to say this. Like, I just hate to say this out loud, but like getting promoted does not mean that you got you did a good job, and it also doesn't mean that you got promoted, or if you didn't get promoted because you didn't do a good job. So much of again, I go back to the earlier statement, ego, right? Like, so much of work is ego-focused, ego-based. What do they always say when you're looking for a job? It's not what you know, it's who you know. And your manager is part of your network. Your manager needs to be someone that likes you. They you want them to like you, you want them to the you want your manager. Well, not only that, you want them to think, hey, I'm a good manager, right? Like, you need to make them feel that way. And the only way you can do that via managing up is to make sure you set goals for them to make them feel like they're a good manager, right? Like, I feel like a crappy manager all the time because I fail my team all the time. And they hate my guts, and that's fine, right? Like, you know, I live with that every day of my life in the back of my mind, thinking these people might one day assault me on the street. I have to carry that with me. But, you know, if I did care, if I did care about my team, I would think, hmm, what should I do to make Janice believe that I'm a good manager? And what Janice could do is say, hey, Bruce, you know, I I've really been going hard this year on all of my projects. I feel like I've executed well. Uh, is it possible that we can talk about next steps for me, career growth? And because I have a relationship with Janice and I care about what Janice thinks about me, because I'm an egomaniac, I'm gonna say, okay, well, Janice, I need to figure out a way to promote her. So maybe I need to spend some time thinking up a career plan, building out something for her. Because if I don't do this, she's gonna think less of me. So, like, you can you can use psychology and ego as a weapon if you have that kind of relationship. Yeah, because the alternative is, oh, I really like Janice. She's a great worker, and I feel like I really let her down, and she's not gonna, she's she's demoralized, she's not gonna work as hard for me anymore. And she probably thinks I'm a terrible manager. Like, I won't be able to work with her again. Yeah, like those are your two paths, right? So you you do have to play a little psychology. And I would always advise you do what's best for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:57

Man, that's so interesting. Like in the broader, the broader scheme of the conversation, the relationship. I also think it's even in those like micro interactions, like even in your one-on-one, like just saying small things here or there, of like, you know, I I love how how much work we take on. Like, you must be so proud of the team you've built and how much we've grown over the last couple of years. Like those types of words of affirmation go a really long way with building that relationship with your manager who doesn't always feel appreciated. I think that's something to remember too, is like they might not feel appreciated in their role because no one's reaching out to them and telling them they're doing a good job. So you doing that, even if you don't think they're doing the best job, helps build that relationship and you know, you guys having a better rapport.

SPEAKER_00: 22:49

One thing I love to do with my manager, and I I I can say this openly and and proudly because it's true, is you know, as a manager who has a manager, I feel like I'm saying the word manager too much, and now it's become weird for me to think the word manager out loud. I'm gonna try and move past it. Don't do it. Hmm. Manager. Manager. Manager count 12. I'm 12 in the last 30 seconds. I'm really stuck right now. Uh I think the uh the hmm. The thing that the thing that I do that works, I'm really stuck on this word. It's driving me nuts. Don't you hate when that happens? Isn't it the worst?

SPEAKER_01: 23:30

You can't get around it and you find like a thing you say or like a mannerism you have and you can't shake it. Yeah. I can't shake it. I literally can't shake it. I have to plow through.

SPEAKER_00: 23:38

I have to plow through. Just do it. I like to focus on and highlight growth whenever I get the chance, right? Because I don't know if they see it. And that's not their job to see the growth of my team. So I make it my point to show my manager, say, hey, you know, Janice, Melanie, Marqueen, Manager, they're all doing really good jobs. And look at look at how they've grown quarter over quarter to remind my manager, you know, like, hey, you know, me as a manager, I'm doing my job. One, but two, my team is doing their job. And three, like, just you know, just to, you know, hey, this makes you look good too, right? Like from top down, it makes everyone look good. And I think it's important for the middle managers like us to manage in both directions well. And that's that's the hardest thing, in in my opinion, as God. We have to find a different word. As a leader who has people on their team. There you go. As a people leader. As a people leader, you have to go both ways and you have to be very good at it. And I would actually argue, as an IC, it's great to manage up, and it's a good, it's a good skill to have. But as a people leader, it is almost a requirement if you want to be good at your job, to be able to manage down and up simultaneously. And if you can't do that, you shouldn't be a manager. Yeah, that's true. Well, you won't last long as a manager if you can't do that. I I don't know about that. I think you'll you'll last forever and everyone will hate you. And they'll write your name in the bathroom wall next to an obscene image.

SPEAKER_01: 25:20

I wish we could say that this was like made up and you just thought of that on the spot, but no, that's real life. That happens.

SPEAKER_00: 25:28

That's the craziest thing about the words you've just said. I can see it because I lived it. I was there. I wrote it on the wall. What? Uh anyway. Did you just admit guilt? Never admit guilt. Never. Never. I can okay. You want to hear you want to hear uh Bruce's crime history? Yes, please. I used to vandalize the hell out of bathrooms. Like I would keep a sharpie in my pocket just at all times, and I would just write on walls. Yeah, yeah. What did you write? Younger, younger me. This is like, you know, 20-year-old Bruce, 20-year-old Bruce Banger. I was a I was a bathroom wall artist. Oh, yeah. What did you what did you draw? What did you write? What didn't I write? Uh, lyrics to songs, fun pages. I would always draw these goofy little cute pictures. And I just, you know, what what could you do? I'm in there, you know, committing a crime with my bowels, and I'm bored. This was I didn't have like a smartphone until I mean I had I had smartphones, but they were they were really crappy. Yeah, yeah. I didn't get a smartphone until like my junior year of college that was actually like an iPhone. So, you know, what was I gonna do in the in the bathroom other than writing? Newspaper. Newspaper. See in my age, I was too young for the newspaper, but too old and too poor for the iPhone. So we had to make our own fun with Sharpies.

SPEAKER_01: 26:59

When you said 20, I mean I almost just spit out my water in my mouth when you said 20. Because like I can totally see it, you being like a teenager, you're in high school, like I think everyone's kind of been there at one point. 20? Well, I was a good kid.

SPEAKER_00: 27:14

So you had your bad, your your bad streak. Yeah, my bad years was once you started to take sharpies and tag the bathrooms. I actually uh I once had a goal to use every single toilet at my college, and I got pretty close. There were a few I couldn't get to, just access reasons, but uh I always did the deed at home.

SPEAKER_01: 27:35

I never took it to work, to school. That was too much. Why? It just wasn't as comfortable.

SPEAKER_00: 27:41

You know, there's nothing like being at home. To to bring it all back home, boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I poop on company time. What about school where you're paying to go there? Even more reason. I'm not gonna waste my own toilet paper. I'm paying for this toilet paper. Clog my parents' pipes at home. No, I'm saving that. I'm making a deposit at the old educational institution of higher learning. You left your mark, didn't you? You left your mark. In in more ways than one.

SPEAKER_01: 28:17

Well, going back, all let's go back to the topic. Manager Okay, let's go. I got two more scenarios. Let's get back on track here. Okay. I got two more scenarios in you. In you. In you. Scenario coming out soon. No, no, I said in you because it's future manager Bruce, and they're just sitting and waiting to be activated. So they'll come out soon for sure. Your poor team. Teach me some. It's getting really, really interesting at the latter half of that the podcast here. Um, okay. Bad scenarios that you have to manage up. Your boss always loves to cause a fire drill at 4 p.m. on Fridays. They have a routine, they end up going through their emails, last thing of the day on Friday for the whole week, and then they just start firing notes at everybody. Hey, Bruce, I need you to jump on this like right away. I didn't know this was happening this week. It's an urgent issue. How do you manage up in a scenario where they're just causing swirl?

SPEAKER_03: 29:17

I don't even know.

SPEAKER_00: 29:19

So I have two answers here to this one. The first is the right one, and the second is what I'd actually do. Um the the managing up way is actually to say to your manager on your one-on-one or whenever you meet with them, say, hey, Frank. Uh I noticed that like you're just getting a lot of email uh that you know just comes into your box. Would would you mind if we actually created like a shared alias for requests so that way I could take this prioritization off your plate when it comes to these specific requests and and delegate them to the team? Or you know, is there Way that I can like basically whatever whatever is causing them to go check all their email at 4 p.m. on a Friday, root cause where the email is coming from and see if you can short cycle it uh and present that option to them. So if it's coming from a specific person or a specific team, talk to them and say, Hey, you know, would you mind adding me to the CC on this? So that way you're not waiting for prioritization. Instead, if it comes through and I can get to it earlier, I'll take it on or whatever. I think that's that's the right answer. I agree. I think I think you know that's it.

SPEAKER_01: 30:32

It's like so my answer is the problem. Understand that you said something important. It's like understand the problem, understand how to drive the value, and then bring it up with them to say, hey, exactly like you did. It's like, hey, I noticed, you know, I I you have a ton of email. You have so much going on, and every single time you send these notes, we have to kind of scramble and figure out the answer. I actually got ahead of that. I created an intake process. Now the requests are coming to us. We will send you a report at the end of the week so you know it's all taken care of. And like that is incredible because the manager is gonna be like, oh wow, that's gonna save me a lot of time. I'm not gonna feel stressed going into the weekend. Like, that's awesome. They're gonna love that.

SPEAKER_00: 31:11

And that's not what I would do, by the way. What would you say to us? What I would do is I would close the lid and I would uh disable notifications on all my devices, and then on Monday when you're like, Hey, where were you? I couldn't get hold of you. It's like, yeah, man. On Fridays, I disappear. I'm actually a big believer in complete disconnecting. I go out into the forest and I nature bathe. Uh, you know, I've got a little tent out there, and you can't get me after five o'clock because my obligations are filled. So, you know, in the future, if you want to do that kind of thing, why don't you do your freaking job and uh give it to me earlier in the week?

SPEAKER_03: 31:47

Nature bathed, huh?

unknown: 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:49

Never heard that one. Yeah, no. I go out there full exposed. No, you don't. No, of course it's a total lie, Clark. I just don't feel like helping this incompetent Rube who waits till 4 p.m. on a Friday. Like, why do I want to help this person succeed? They suck, they deserve to be fired. I'm not gonna enable this, they're not gonna help me grow. Why am I gonna waste my time to make their life better? They suck, not me. I'm gonna go live my life and enjoy my weekend.

SPEAKER_01: 32:19

I'm I'm crying over here because I'm envisioning like if this happened to you and you said this, and then they decided to call you over Slack or Teams or whatever, like video call, and then you hop on the call and you're just fully exposed, as you said, like in a tent and being like, Yeah, I told you this was gonna be the situation. You shouldn't have called me after five on a Friday. And then guess what? This is the ultimate hack. They'll never do it again. They'll be like, Hold out.

SPEAKER_00: 32:45

Here's the thing even if even if you just completely go A-WOL in this case, they still won't do it again because you were completely unreliable and they can't fire you for it. What are they Oh HR, um, so when I drop the ball on my emails, I can't get in touch with my team on Friday nights and weekends. Uh, I think I think we should consider removing this person. Like, no, they will not promote you and you will be stunted in your career growth. But sometimes that's better than dealing with the asshattery that comes from management like this. Just, you know, my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_01: 33:18

I agree. I like that answer. I like that answer. For the people that are actually experiencing this, do the first thing, not the second thing. It'll it'll turn out much better for you. Second scenario, you ready? And this one has happened to me. This one has happened to me. When you're on a team with a certain type of manager, nobody has the courage to speak up, but somebody has to. So the team ends up talking to each other and they're like, okay, yeah, we see this behavior a lot. For me, it was I'm I sometimes forget how important team building is because we're just so busy all the time that I don't like set aside the time to celebrate wins. And so the team got together and they all went through one person. They said, Hey, they came to me and they're like, Hey, we're doing so much great work. You know, talking to the team, they think it'd be awesome if we could like celebrate that once in a while. Like maybe even just like go out, get a drink together, just spend some of that time together. And for me, I was like, oh shoot, you're right. When was the last time we did that? And they're like, Yeah, like eight months ago. And we've had like 26 releases since then. We should make this like a regular thing. You know, why don't we make this quarterly? And we can go out, celebrate our wins, get together as a team, do something fun. And you know, if you're okay with it, let's use some of the budget and like plan a fun event. I'm like, yeah, you're right, that's a great idea. So that's like the managing up where, again, going back to what we were talking about earlier, I was oblivious to it just because like those things, you know, quality time is not the highest on my list for working with my team. And so I am kind of blindsided by that, and I'm happy when my team brings up those things that are for the greater good of the team, because then I know they're looking out for them, then I know they're looking to build a more collaborative culture, like the all the positive things you want your team doing. So those are the much appreciated times when I love it when my team is managing up.

SPEAKER_00: 35:07

Yeah, that is great. I I love that. And and I truly believe it is a tool that really only is used for good. When when you know how to manage up well, that I don't think there's a way you can abuse that system or or use it for evil. It benefits everybody. And if you can do it, and I I say can because you're not always guaranteed to have a manager that's gonna be receptive to this, but if you are in a situation where you can, it will benefit you so tremendously, which is why it's important you learn how to do it. And you do it often, whenever you see the chance to do 100%.

SPEAKER_01: 35:42

I think we crushed it. We can know I'm gonna when to do it, when not to do it, what the strategies are when you bring those things up and how to kind of you know go about patting them on the back a little bit, positive, negative, sandwiching it in for that review cycle, bringing them solutions to problems and not problems themselves, and showing that you understand the value, identifying opportunities where you can expand your visibility, your career growth, what it is, whatever it is, and asking them to give you permission to do those things, and then just being proactive, like noticing things that need to be done or a pattern and how you can potentially get ahead of that to better help your manager. All those things are gonna go, you know, really, really positively towards your career growth.

SPEAKER_00: 36:25

Yep. Couldn't agree more. It's such a great skill to have, and I think it is. I think you crushed it, Clark.

SPEAKER_01: 36:32

Oh, I think you did. And it's scary. It's scary. So don't feel bad if this is scary for you, but you gotta start somewhere. Pick something small and do it. It will make a big difference.

SPEAKER_00: 36:40

And and that's the that's the growth capability too. Is it you do it one with a little small thing, you'll sort of be like, oh, that wasn't so bad. Yeah, I can't. I'll do more again. I can do more, and you absolutely can. I believe in you, listener. Nice job. We nailed it. You did a nice job.

SPEAKER_03: 36:57

I'm proud of you. Proud of you, Clark Kidding. Yeah, you too originally. Thanks, Clark Kitty.

SPEAKER_00: 37:04

You know, I'd I do what I can.

SPEAKER_03: 37:08

Yeah, so uh you feel good, I feel good.

SPEAKER_00: 37:11

Alright, I'll see you next week. Alright, well, sounds sounds like a plan. I mean, uh okay.

SPEAKER_03: 37:16

Alright, maybe we can Okay. No, don't worry, I'm just gonna go. I'm a little sad it's over now. I kinda wanted to you know hang out.

SPEAKER_00: 37:29

Yeah, talk about it.

SPEAKER_01: 37:33

Managing up. Yeah, you love sports ball, so I know we can get real deep on that topic.

SPEAKER_00: 37:38

Talk about the points that were earned on the last game. All the the units that were scored. You watching the game tonight? You watch the game tonight and oh, am I Oh those those buckenskins, they're really bringing the the heat with their offense.

SPEAKER_01: 38:00

They're gonna slapshot that volley right into a touchdown.

SPEAKER_00: 38:04

I know they I knew I knew you were gonna say that because I agree. Oh, it is just heartfelt when they when the team takes the field and the baskets are made.

SPEAKER_01: 38:22

People don't know you, but in the office you would do this because there would be like fan people who would actually care about sports, they would bring things up to you like catch the game last night, and he would legitimately do this, like in the elevator, and then they would very clearly know that he had no idea what he was talking about, and they thought it was hilarious. They were like, Oh, so not a sports guy, got it.

SPEAKER_00: 38:45

You know, I think back on how much of just a curmudgeon and jerk that I am to many people that I come in contact with. And, you know, one day I will probably be visited by ghosts of various decades that I grew up in in my sleep. And maybe I'll recant, but in the moment right now, I just feel like they deserved it. And, you know, I feel good. I feel good for all the decisions I've made in my life. I think I did the right thing, you know. I mean, you could say you left your mark. I you could say that. And I hope somewhere out there on a college campus that I may or may not have attended, those marks still remain.

SPEAKER_03: 39:32

Who can know only time? Only time will tell.

SPEAKER_00: 39:39

Well, Clark, it's been a real good time talking with you today. Clark Kitty. I think uh I think we did another great episode. We already told them how to get in the Discord. If you want to buy shirts, onesies, stickers, hat pins, uh flak jacket for the upcoming wars, um, you can go on our spreadshop and get them there. It's a great place to buy things because it's nonprofit. We don't make a single dime on it. But if you want our logo on a tactical vest, go get it. Be ready. Things are coming. Uh, if you are interested in checking out our website, we got one of those. But more importantly than that, we would love it if you would share this podcast with your friends, family, neighbors, co-workers, manage up, say, hey, I listened to this episode and I thought you might need a little bit of these skills for yourself. Be sure to share the parts with them where I talk specifically about my bathroom experiences. I think there's a lot to be yielded from that specifically. So clip that if you need it. But that really would mean a lot to us. Uh, we are a non-marketed podcast, we're a nonprofit podcast. In fact, we're a profit-negative podcast, and sharing is the least you can do to keep us going. As long as we see line go up, we feel good. Well, one of us feels good. One of us probably has undiagnosed depression. Anything else, Clark?

SPEAKER_01: 40:56

No, I think you know that. I think that just summed it up to exactly what we are in a nutshell. So I appreciate you closing us out there. Couldn't agree more. Uh stay medicated, stay classy.

SPEAKER_00: 41:07

I'm Bruce.

SPEAKER_03: 41:09

And I'm kidding. And you're on Mute City. We'll see you next week.