SPEAKER_00: 0:02

What do you think, Craig? Do you think if someone asks you a favor, but you say no, that they're allowed to be disappointed? Oh yeah, no, I I completely agree, Craig. I think that is a very immature and unwieldy behavior. I think the favor asker needs to take the rejection in stride. Yeah, you're right. We should record a podcast. How you doing, Clark?

SPEAKER_03: 0:28

Right to business, Craig. Always. You know, this one's scary. This is a spooky episode. This is spooky.

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

We're recording this on the spookiest day of the year. Halloween. You know what's really spooky? What's that? My voice could give out at any moment.

SPEAKER_03: 0:46

So we've only been talking, just to give people context. We've been talking, just chatting for a few minutes before. And it's been going and getting worse and worse like every minute. So this is gonna go really well.

SPEAKER_00: 0:58

Yes, I I think it will. I'm I'm very excited to uh to record this podcast where I might actually die in the recording of it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08

If you lose your voice mid-podcast, that would actually be really funny. That's something that we've never had like a mid-podcast disconnect where somebody just had to carry it forward and the other person couldn't. So it'd be really funny if that happened. I just would have to filibuster the rest of the time. I would uh absolutely still upload this episode. Oh, you mean our quality production team wouldn't stop you? You you just have the autonomy to go do it yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 1:35

I sure do. I would make a mockery of you, me, the pod, and everyone who listens. Because I'm that kind of guy.

SPEAKER_03: 1:41

And you know what? We're an organization that's willing to take risk, and we think our listeners would enjoy it. Why not try it? It's an experiment. Why not?

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Why not try it? Hey Clark, question for you. Yeah, please. Welcome back to Corporate Strategy Podcast because an email number is Clark. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 2:00

Oh, okay. That's the question. Wait, it's gonna be the question. Vibe check, pinky's up. I got my pinky up. I'm vibing. You know, today's been a good day. Really? Today's been a good day. Yeah, I had to hear that. I had one, I had okay, so I had one meeting that turned into three meetings, but it was all in like an hour and 15 minutes, so that was fine. You know, I I dealt with all that, and then I spent the day doing my year-end review, which was somewhat therapeutic. A little early for a year-end review. Yeah, I was getting proud. Yeah, you're right. It is a little bit early, but we always go off kilter like this. So November is usually when we have to submit them. So I'm a few weeks ahead. And I just had the time to get it done, and it was therapeutic. It was cool to look back, and you probably feel this too. It's like you're so busy every single day, and it's so rare, like when anything that's three days old is actually relevant anymore. And when you look back at things and you like look at the things you've accomplished, things your team has done, the work you've done, it's therapeutic to be like, holy cow, we've done a lot. And then when you look at it year over year, I pulled up my 2024 review, my 2023 review, I'm like, there's been so much growth. And I'm just appreciative of how much we're able to get done right now compared to where we were two years ago.

SPEAKER_00: 3:21

It's it's really funny you say that because um a few months ago when I was uh applying for the VP role at my current job, my my boss is going over with me all my accomplishments, and I was like, dude, how do you how do you know I did all this when I don't even know that I did all this? Like, it is a blur to me. And the fact that you have all of this like on lock written down is crazy. Like you make me sound much better than I actually look and sound. And it was it's all things I did, but it was really funny because just like I lost track of all the accomplishments I had for the year, and my boss had them all written down, just as like, yeah, no, you're the best. Here you go. Here's a list of all the things you're great at. Like, oh my gosh, dude. That's super cool. I don't know. But it made me it made me realize like I need to do a better job of cataloging my accomplishments. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 4:14

Well, it's funny because we talked about that before. Um, I think in a previous episode where we were like, you every single time you have a big accomplishment, go ahead and like just log it somewhere. Put it in a notes document, have it prepped for the next year. Um, and that way, when it comes to review time, it's not like, oh shoot, I gotta go through the roadmap and like figure out what I do again? Like, what am I doing? So I think that's something that we could all do better on. It's like make it a habit. You you finish a project, put it in that notes file for the end of your review. But you know what I think is so interesting that I don't think I've ever had happen to me is my manager comes prepared with those things. I don't think I've ever had that happen. Like, that's actually pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00: 4:58

It is, it was really cool. I really appreciated it. And it it just made me realize how woefully out of touch I am with keeping track of my own things.

SPEAKER_03: 5:06

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's that's awesome that they kept tracking me. Like, hey, you're doing awesome, Bruce. Like, look at all this really cool stuff that you've accomplished this year. I think that's a that's a really cool testament to probably a pretty good manager if they're paying attention to those things. I think, and I think I'm guilty of this too. Oh, this is this makes Halloween even worse because I'm gonna say something that's gonna scare everybody. The review time is sometimes when the teams, myself included, you have an opportunity to remind your boss what you did that year. Like, hey, we've done a lot. Like, don't forget, as you're calibrating me across all my peers, don't forget how much I did and the things that I did. And I hate it, but it's true. Sometimes in my reviews, my team brings things up and they're like, oh crap, I forgot you did that.

SPEAKER_00: 5:56

Yeah. I mean, it's important because I think more often than not it goes the other way where people forget the things they did. Like people like me forget the things that I did in the year, but they definitely forget the things other people do. And you definitely got to make sure you write that stuff down and have a list. Um, what do you do? Like, what's your what's your secret to cataloging all of your accomplishments?

SPEAKER_03: 6:22

Yeah, well, I was terrible about it this year, but usually it's like every single time we go through yearly, luckily for from a product team perspective, like our job is to define the roadmaps. And so that's kind of like your template right there. It's like the things I'm gonna do and what I'm gonna be measured on is very likely the things in my roadmap from an 80% standpoint. And then there's, of course, since I'm a people leader, there's a 20% of like managerial portion of that. They'll never be on a roadmap, but it's things that I'm contributing to the broader team, I'm growing my team, things like that. So luckily it's pretty easy. Whenever I go through reviews, my process, it actually would be interesting to hear your process too. My process is usually I'll pull up 2024, whatever I wrote down for 2024 and look through really quick just to remember what I wrote down and what I what I wrote as an accomplishment. And then for 2025, I start by basically just pulling up my roadmap and saying, what did we actually do this year? And just writing all those things down. And so I kind of write down the big ones. If they're really small, I don't necessarily call them out, but I write them down, I write down the impact, and then you know, from there I kind of formulate how do these align towards the goals or objectives that were set for me at the beginning of the year. So I kind of go through each goal one by one and I reference that list of being like, okay, we did this, it had this result. I did this, it had this result. And so that's how I kind of end up writing almost in kind of like a first person storytelling narrative, um, my reviews. And put that in a document or what yeah. Since we're a big company, we have a system. So we have a system that all of our reviews go through. Yeah, isn't that nice?

SPEAKER_00: 7:57

That is nice. That is nice. Yeah, it's not because I'm over here like thinking, do I make a spreadsheet? Like, how do I actually track this in a way that is meaningful for me and my team? Because I I don't have any system whatsoever for this.

SPEAKER_03: 8:11

Really? Man, that's it. Yeah, zero. Yeah, I think big corp, and I think anybody that's working for big corp probably has a system where it's like it's annual review time, like go into the system, and you have to, everybody has to follow the same process. For us, it's goals and write up if you have completed your goal, if it's still in progress, if you didn't complete it, if it's no longer relevant. Mark whether you met the expectations, didn't meet the expectations, exceeded. So you kind of do your self-review, and then you do a write-up towards each goal and why you think you got the rating that you're rating yourself. Then we have a competency section. So it's you know, the core kind of values, I guess, that our organization abides by is general to the every single employer company. It's like, did you do these things? Do you rank it as a strength, a needs of development, or you know, something that uh is just not a or unmet, like you're just doing it. So it's either a strength, you met it, um, or it's something that needs development. And then lastly, we have kind of like an overall summary of where you think you land. So everybody kind of goes through that. And I think the extra nuance that I think I talked about this in a prior episode, something I did for our organization this year, and I worked with my peers to do, is we expanded on just the values that our company has at a whole and what you rank yourself. And we basically said, let's make it product manager specific, like product management. Let's put ranks, an associate product manager manager, a product manager, a senior product manager, a director of product management, and let's go through and actually write down the behaviors and skill sets that you need at each of those levels. So now it's not just these generic, you know, giant organization values. It's like these are specific to your role, and we should be going through those as well as the generic company ones. And so this is the first year we're doing it. I think it's gonna be really interesting to see what the team comes up with and what challenges we have because it's a it's a lengthy list and it's gonna add to the review process. But I hope on the other side of this, we basically are able to say, hey, I understand better of what I'm not doing in my role in order to get to the next level and where I need to focus my attention in 2026 so that I can be doing these behaviors or learning these skill sets or whatever it needs to grow in my career. So I'm really excited. This is a big year.

SPEAKER_00: 10:25

When do you excuse me, how the voice is dying? When do you go? I this is something that I should log as an accomplishment for myself. Like what point in time are you like, hey, Clark did great.

SPEAKER_03: 10:43

I think it's largely around those releases on the roadmap. It's like when we do a release, I think that's the trigger. It's like, okay, today's release day. I'm gonna write down everything that we're releasing. That way I have it for reference and I don't forget. Because since I was bad about it this year, I'm sure over the next couple days, the next week, I'm gonna be like, oh wait, I forgot to write down this, I forgot about this. Like, there's gonna be all that stuff that comes up that now I just don't have because I can't recall it from memory. So I think for me, what I can do better is those moments where release happens, I need to write those things down.

SPEAKER_00: 11:15

Well, and it's really nice for you because your entire org is tied to this mythical roadmap, which you know, you can always point back to, look at, compare against. That's nice, right? You've got you've got a single line that is essentially, you know, did we underachieve or overachieve based on plan? I I think with roles where, you know, like developer, engineer, uh, even sales, product management, there's always going to be a very easy way to track how you did based on the assignments you're given. For me, it's not so easy because thinking, you know, marketing runs ahead of product management. Yeah. In in many ways, right? Like I'm curious what your roadmap is, but also it doesn't matter, I have to put out marketing material this quarter whether you have something or not. So I'm making something up, right? I'm getting creative, I'm I'm going off and building thought leadership. And marketing is successful or it fails based on are we generating leads? Are we generating awareness? Are we converting leads into sales? Like, what are we doing that's that's making people interested in purchasing product or engaging with the company in some way, shape, or form? And here's here's the real rub of it all. I could spend an entire quarter building the coolest thing ever and putting it out there and giving it promotion and spending lots of money and making this thing as big and huge as it can be, and it just doesn't land for whatever reason, right? Is that a success or a failure? And how do I how do I report on me based on what like because like in you know, hypothetically, on paper, this was a great idea. This this should have done gangbusters for us, but time, timing, politics, some factor cause this thing to fail. And how do you how do you report on that from uh an accomplishments perspective? Like, does effort equal accomplishment in in my org? Or is that a failure? And is that something that I need to report back to you know my leadership? Like, yeah, yeah, we we spent$100,000 and you know, a few hundred hours, and it's uh produced this ginormous flop of a project. You should fire us all. Like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03: 13:40

Oh I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure I forgot completely to put my headphones in. And because of that, I hope your voice is not reverberating through the rest of this podcast. If it is, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 13:52

I think I think Discord does a pretty good job of cleaning it up for the most part. I couldn't hear it, so it's always a good stuff. I can't hear it. Okay, well, we'll continue on. And I I see you you've avoided answering the question. Good good play there.

SPEAKER_03: 14:07

Well, well, I'm I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna get at it right now. I think it I think it all depends like what does your company value or need as a whole? Sales. Right. So like for you in a startup mentality, what do you value? It's like real revenue, most likely. Right. You know, equated by sales, part of the sale is a victory.

unknown: 14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:32

Yeah, dollars. Like it's all about how do you just gain the revenue to either work towards a goal of going public or be acquired or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00: 14:39

And like I would say, even as a startup, it's not just dollars or revenue, it's just sales. If we broke flat even, that's still better than not breaking at all. Like truly as many sales as possible, right? Like that is a startup's goal.

SPEAKER_03: 14:53

Right. And so I think that's what makes it really difficult because you're still trying to find product market fit and establish yourself as a company. And so your your company, and this is going to be pretty brutal, but I'm curious if you agree, they don't care about learning. No. Learning is not a goal. It's like if you fail and you learn something, likely that's not valuable to the company. It's it'd be valuable if that learning produces more sales next quarter. Yeah, yep. It's like if you fail and you can't take that into how do we revise our strategy to drive more sales, it's just a total waste. Like learning, even if you learn something, like if it takes you backwards or you don't hit your sales targets, or you're off par from the last quarter, that's a failure. Doesn't matter what you learned. Like you're your company could be dead in three quarters. Like, you don't know, right? And that that's actually a pretty scary place to be in.

SPEAKER_00: 15:49

And I mean, it's it's funny because usually when I do reviews, well, you know, in my in my company, we actually do the four box review. Are you familiar? I I've talked about this before, right? Where you're you're rated ranked on your it's not just your actual job performance, but also your uh alignment to the company values and the culture. So you get a one through three. One needs improvement, two is on the mark, three is overachieving. So you could be like a two-three, you do your job well, and everyone loves you. Or you could be like a three-one, you do your job better than well, everyone hates your guts, right? Like it's that toxic A player. So it's pretty easy. I I would say I think it's a that's a good model for performing reviews at a startup, because like I talked about before, the way we grade ourselves and the things we care about as far as accomplishments go aren't the same kind of things you get measured on at a big corp. Yeah. So it's good in that regard, but it's bad in the if you're not tracking the things you're doing, if you're not writing down your accomplishments as they happen, they will get lost. So it's very easy for me to just say, hey, looking at you, Clark, I think you're a two-three. And that seems about right. And that'll be what you get written down for. I don't I don't remember what you did in the first two quarters of the year, but you're a two-three. And I could fight for that and I can argue that and get you that. So, like, there's an upside to that, which is it's a very easy system to quickly box people into because you're just going based off feel, right? But at the same time, in your case, and I think what you're doing that's so good is because you have all of this written down, you have all this trackable. It's not just a good review for you at the company level. It's good for you, like you can go update your resume with this information. This is stuff that you can write down and actually use when arguing for raises, salary bumps, you know, looking at different jobs internally or externally. Like these are accomplishments that go well beyond just the review. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay, I heard that one. I got too passionate there. Thanks for that.

SPEAKER_03: 17:55

You did. You got a little too fired up.

SPEAKER_00: 17:57

I gotta make it off the soapbox.

SPEAKER_03: 18:01

No, I think that's it. Is really interesting, like the differences. Because I think in a larger organization, even if you fail, it's not at a detriment to the company. And because of that, it's it's okay to fail, and you can kind of transform your organization into a learning organization where you're like, what are we trying to learn? What are we trying to validate? We may be successful, we may not, but this is what we took away from it. And that is actually the most valuable thing because we already have product market fit, are an established public company. Like, those are things that we can afford to do, and it makes the workplace a little less stressful because you you don't have to worry about are we gonna be alive next quarter? You you just know, hey, I'm working towards a goal and we're gonna advance this part of our company. But if we don't, we're probably gonna be just fine. Okay, I got a I got a question for you, manager. Manager Bruce. All right, oh, hello. What do you what do you do? What do you do if someone you know they're not you you are not gonna give them a great review? But they come to you and they think they have they're the hottest thing around town, and like they wrote down so many things that are accomplishments, and you you're taking in this written review, and it's a 30-page biography of what they've done in the last year.

SPEAKER_00: 19:25

How do you handle that situation? So one, this ne- I need more information, and it's because I've I've lived through this in multiple ways. So is this person actually bad at their jobs, or are they perceived as bad at their jobs?

SPEAKER_03: 19:44

I'd say they're actually they're underperforming. Let's not say bad. It's not like Pip, but they're underperforming. They think they're ready for a promotion or something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 19:54

So in that case, then one the real trick to this is getting ahead of it and not doing it at the review, right? Like when I receive feedback that someone on my team is under not even I wouldn't even say underperforming, but just not meeting an expectation in some regard. Hey, on this project, I really need uh Jane to step up her her game here. It's like, oh, okay, well, uh now I understand there's a perception around Jane. My next one-on-one, literally next week, I'm having a conversation with Jane on this exact thing. Like, because I don't want to get to review, yeah. And have to be like, hey, so you're a one-two, and it's because you didn't do this. Yeah. And then Jane's like, well, why did no one tell me? Well, you know, I it was just sense, like, right, like that's the worst position to be in as a manager, is having to explain something after the fact when you could have delivered the feedback. Like, if it's if it's really important, like if it's like, hey, I need this from Jane tomorrow, like, where is it? Is she working on it? That's when I'm I'm scheduling a call. Like, hey, we need to have a quick 15-minute chat today. Nothing, you know, it's it's nothing that's gonna like hurt you in any way, shape, or form, but like, we need to get this figured out so you look your best, best foot forward moving forward.

SPEAKER_03: 21:14

It's so great that you went in this direction because I think that's like the most valuable lesson for a manager. Review should not be a surprise. Never. You have to give that feedback in real time when it's contextualized, when it's understood. Because when things are busy, if you wait a month to tell someone, then you'll be like, I don't even remember the exact scenario and what the situation was. Like, not a month. Try a week.

SPEAKER_01: 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:41

Yeah. So you have to give it in the moment as soon as you can to let them know. Like, hey, absolutely, this is the behavior we're seeing. You shouldn't be doing this, or you miss this deadline. Because if you wait and you make it a surprise, it's gonna look real bad for you and they're gonna be real upset.

SPEAKER_00: 21:57

Well, here's the thing, too, is the longer you wait and the less fresh it is, the harder it's gonna be for the manager or whoever's giving the feedback to deliver good feedback on it, right? Like if you if you're able to do it that day or within that week and say, hey, let's have a quick chat. Just wanted to let you know the way that, you know, the way you handled the delivery of that project, uh, it kind of disappointed some of our key stakeholders here. They expected it as a PowerPoint and they wanted some some graphs to go along with it. But now we know for the future, and you know, it's it's not a big deal. Moving forward, we're gonna have this as exit criteria. So thanks for for taking this, you know, first try at this effort. And now we all know for the future. One, you're you're responding immediately to what you've heard and what you've seen. And now the person who's receiving that feedback knows as well. So it's not, they can't argue it, right? It just happened. It also doesn't feel as I don't know, like it doesn't feel as negative when it's in the moment, right? Because you're just talking about something that happened versus talking about them in regards to something that happened. You're talking about the action rather than talking about the person. And when you frame it as a learning opportunity, like, hey, moving forward, this is a criteria for everybody. Like, you know, thanks for for helping us figure this out this time, you know, forevermore. Graphs have to be included in it has to be in a PowerPoint format. Like we know. Like, I I just feel like that prevents you from ever getting to the point where it's a it's a true like shock. Hey, you continue, you know, if they continue to do it, you continue to have that conversation. Like, you're still not giving them a PowerPoint. There's no graphs. Why? Like, why aren't you doing this? And then you know, by the fifth time, then it's a listen, do we need to talk about like, is is there something fundamentally missing here? Like, do we need to go on a plan? Like, what's going on? But I would never get to a review and be like, well, you never put it in a PowerPoint.

SPEAKER_03: 23:54

So I think those are all such great points. Because yeah, the last thing you want to do is surprise somebody. And I think the question I asked, you answered the right way. It's like if someone's coming in, they think they're the hottest thing around town, they're either really out of touch, which I have had happen. I've had people where I've given them consistent feedback over and over again. I'm like, listen, this must be improved. Like, this will put you at a lower rating. I've I've like literally said these words to somebody, and still they came back like thinking they've done everything perfectly and they're calling out things that I'm like, those things don't matter. Stop doing those things. And at that point, it is exactly what you're saying. It's it's time to go on a plan. We've got to talk about your performance. And you're obviously missing fundamental responsibilities or an understanding of those responsibilities for this job. And those conversations suck because you know it could be the individual, it could also be like your organization, the clarity around the role, or the group that they're around that make it difficult for them to understand. So it's sometimes a really difficult message, but it's it's an important one. Otherwise, they're just going to keep going down the wrong path and they're never going to be successful on your team.

SPEAKER_00: 25:05

So I do think we should talk about the other side, which is when you have been given feedback about someone you disagree with, and you have to incorporate that into your review. Because I've been I've been in that one too, and that one's far worse, in my opinion. Because one, you can talk to honestly and openly, the other, you're going to offend somebody, and it's rough. Have you ever been there?

SPEAKER_03: 25:31

I think I think so. And I want to hear your story, but since I'm talking, I can I can start. So I had a manager for like a year. It was kind of like temporary. It was an interesting situation. But I remember going into review, and I did feel surprised. I was like, oh wow, this is like the first time I've gotten more negative. It still was an okay review, more negative feedback than I've gotten. And I didn't think any of this was going to be an issue. Like I thought this was all stuff that we worked on. So to be honest with you, I handled that situation very poorly. I just kind of took it because I I was so shocked. I was just like, I just wasn't prepared for this type of feedback. Some of it was like I can see how it would be accurate, but also I can see because of the nature of the conversation or the work, I think it was like saying no, not saying yes to everything and saying no and like drawing a line in priorization. And I'm not, the way I looked at it was I wasn't saying yes to specifically the thing they were asking us to do. I was saying yes, we will meet the objective you're trying to achieve, but it's gonna be different than the way you're thinking about it. And so I was like, that was totally within our scope. And I look back like with your question now, and it's funny because it was years ago and I'm reflecting on that just now, but that should have been my response to be like, listen, I said yes, that we were going to meet their objective, not yes, we're gonna do what they wanted us to do. And I think you misunderstood the situation and what we were agreeing on. And so I think that was like the time that I remember just being completely blindsided and then me just not handling it well because I was so shocked.

SPEAKER_00: 27:13

So I think that's it's an understandable reaction. And my only advice I would give to you is feel free to push back. And I like I mean that. Like be compassionate, whether it's it's feedback to yourself or feedback about someone on your team, feel impassioned and empowered to push back and say, I hear what you're saying, but let me give you my counteropinion because I think either myself or my teammate actually doing a little bit more or better than what you might perceive. So let's talk about this because this is your perception. And I think it's really important to point that out too is like this is your perception. I'm gonna show you my perception. Can we find a middle ground here? And talk through, you know, you you said X, Y, and Z, but have you considered A, B, and C? Also, Y and Z are not this person's job. And if you think that it is, then that's another conversation that we need to have because this person doesn't even know that you think this is their job, nor did I, right? So, like, I think there is an important part of like sometimes you have to not just take something at face value and dig deeper, right? Because it is all perception at the end of the day. There is no such thing as truth when it comes to feedback, it's all matter of opinion. And I think there's truth. There's not an objective truth, period, in corporate, right? Like it is always what does my boss think? What do my peers think? What do my direct reports think? What does the CEO think? It's just opinion the whole way down. Right. And you have to be able to push back and articulate clearly, you know, your opinions, what you see, what you perceive, and why you think that this is off the mark. And then another conversation needs to occur with if it's not you that's receiving the feedback, if it's for a direct or someone who reports to you, you need to have a conversation with them and say, hey, look, there is a perception here. I don't agree with it, and it's because we work closely together. But other people outside of our team see this. And we being you and me, because this is not just a you problem, this is a me as your manager problem, have to figure out how we change your perception uh more broadly. And that is how I've handled that, and that's how I will continue to handle it because I think it works, but it is a far worse situation to be in than to just receive feedback that is warranted. Yeah. Oh man.

SPEAKER_03: 29:37

That's such a hard thing to do. And I I applaud you because debating that, I think something that you said is really interesting. A review is a conversation, not a definitive this is the answer. Like a review is a back and forth. It's Do we have the same understanding of the expectations of me? Am I doing the things that I should be doing and am I doing them well? And like that is an opportunity to receive clarity on what you're doing and if you're doing the right things or the wrong thing. I never even like thought of that. Of this is a conversation. It's not a here's the feedback you're gonna take. It's not one way. It's too late. Go and do it. Yeah. And if you look at it at one at one way, it's a detriment to you because you're not you're not digging into the details to understand how you can do better, and it could really hinder your career because you may get in your next review and have the same exact thing happen because you don't understand, especially if you disagree, like what you should be doing.

unknown: 30:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 30:47

That's so that's so interesting. And I was trying to think of like tactics to bring this up in a way where it'll be well received. And I almost think the first step to that, like if you receive negative feedback, that you're like, I don't agree with this, don't just say, I disagree. Like, don't just go, nope, nope, eh, eh, Bruce, that's not me. Don't don't do that. But I think you can you can receive it and you can state it back to them. Just be like, okay, thanks, thanks for the feedback. Just to make sure I understand your perspective of this situation was that I handled it poorly because of X, Y, and Z. Does that sound right? And they're like, yeah, that does sound right. And it's like, okay, totally get that. My perspective is in my role, this is what I should be doing in those scenarios, and this is what I'm responsible for. But that thing that fell to the wayside that you're saying that I should be responsible for, I actually think that's Bruce's job. That's not my job. And then you can get that clarity of being like, is this something that I actually need to be responsible for moving forward? And next time, I will gladly take the ball and say, okay, Bruce, I'm gonna handle this piece to make sure it gets done. Like that's your opportunity to receive that clarity, which is why that review is so important that it's a conversation, not just you receiving it.

SPEAKER_00: 32:05

There's um there's there's two phrases you can use. And we've talked about we do this a lot on this pod. There is the Bruce way, and then there's the right way. Uh so the right way, I you can always use this. Is when someone says something to you, hey, before we move on, can we discuss that? I want to dig into that deeper, right? Like I want to I want to discuss that last point you made, or I want to I want to go back to the that point you made about Jane not being able to uh deliver things in PowerPoint. Let's dig into that, right? Because then it forces you to have a conversation about it. Like no matter what happens after that point, you will have a conversation about that. Now the Bruce way is I'm gonna challenge you on that. And I I use that phrase because it puts them on the like it puts them a little bit on the defense of like, oh, yeah, why am I being challenged? Like what? And I I will only use that phrase when I know 100% that I am in the right. I have factual data to back this up, and I'm I'm coming into this, it's not as a fight, but I'm coming into this with a uh basically you are gonna walk out of this conversation, at least having had to have thought about what was presented in a way that you hadn't thought about it before. And I do like using a little bit more challenging language around that, so it doesn't just sound like, hey, let's talk about this. It's like, no, I'm gonna challenge you on this. Yeah, because I do not believe that to be true. And we need to come to a new outcome that is not the one you have today. But that's a little bit of a power move. So can we discuss that is also equally acceptable. But if you feel if you feel so empowered that you can pull the challenge, lay that gauntlet down.

SPEAKER_03: 33:46

You have to have a lot of Hutzpah. A lot of Hutzpah to do what you just said. Yeah, I know. I kind of enjoy it. I I kind of I I respect that because I agree with you. It's like and you know what? Let me ask you this. Would you only do this? Would you only do this with a bad manager?

SPEAKER_00: 34:08

No. In fact, I do it more with good managers. Yeah, yeah, I do it more people I'm comfortable with. Like, I'm gonna challenge you on that. Like, I literally I've I've told you like I'm gonna challenge you on that. You've used those words. I I do it with people I'm comfortable with enough to like, hey, I think I can change your mind. Yeah, I think I can change your mind on this subject. So let's talk about it. That's why I say that specific thing. If it's someone I'm not so comfortable with, then it's like, hey, can we go back and discuss that? Yeah, that's fair. Or if I don't like you, then it's I'm gonna challenge you on that. So it's either I love you or I hate you. That's when you really get that.

SPEAKER_03: 34:45

I don't I don't know that I've ever used the I'm gonna challenge you on that. Maybe it's just a personality thing, or maybe it is that I need to use stronger language when being direct with people, especially like, and maybe it's a cultural thing too. I'm just going at all these maybes. Maybe it's a cultural thing too at the company that I'm at, where you need to be approachable to be successful, and so you kind of have to be soft with people, like being direct with people doesn't always work well. I think in your like a startup environment, you have to be direct because you don't have all this time to waste beating around the bush. You don't have to worry about people's feelings. It's like, listen, we're either company next quarter, we're not a company next quarter. Like you do this or we fail. And like you have to, it's a dire, a more dire situation. So I think that's that's an interesting perspective. Like, I think in corporate, you kind of you kind of have to beat around the bush a little bit unless you're actually being reviewed unfairly. And that's why I brought up the question around a bad boss, because I think with the bad boss, and I wish I had the Hutzpah to do this with certain bad bosses that you know that I had in the past. Oh my gosh, I would love to have some of your bosses. The reviews that I went into were just like insane. Every time I went in those reviews, I was just like, I don't even understand like what my role is, why I didn't get a good review, and like what I'm doing wrong, because I feel like I'm doing everything right. And then you switch over a good manager and you're like, oh shoot, I am doing everything right. But like in those bad manager reviews, I wish I did what you're saying. Like, I'm gonna challenge you on that. Like, I've completed, and this was when I was a developer, I've completed 20% more points per sprint than anybody else on the team. So tell me how I'm underperforming.

SPEAKER_00: 36:30

Like I don't know I think back, I think back to some of the middle management we worked with at Big Corp. And it is truly a wonder. One, those people ever got hired in the first place, but two, they would get rehired elsewhere. I just like if I interviewed them, just first interview, first conversation, some of those people were like some of the most like weasel human beings. Oh yeah. And you could just tell. You could just like, oh, you're a you're a human weasel. Wow. Wow, how's that working for you? And well, is the answer apparently. They've stayed in middle management their whole lives, but it is wild. Some of the people we had as management and that delivered reviews. I remember, do you remember my my manager who was just complete and total mush? Uh yeah, yeah, I think that like literally would do nothing, just did nothing. And like I remember I had a meeting with him when I was literally like, you do nothing for me or for anybody on this team, and now you're not giving me a raise because the elders deserve it more than I do. Like, what incentive do I have to stay here, let alone work for you or work well for you? And he was like so shocked. Like, I like and I'm like, how are you shocked? I'm a human being, I have emotions, I have expectations. Like, this is not unusual. What is wrong with you? Yeah, it's just crazy, it's absolutely crazy. Like, that's insane, dude. We had some of the worst middle management.

SPEAKER_03: 38:03

Like looking back at that, that was just insane. The people that we had to work with and the crap that we had to deal with, and yeah, just the difference. Like, the initial, the first manager we had was great. Our middle managers were terrible, and I was lucky enough to find a home with my final manager who was much better for me, and immediately like felt the benefit of that. So remember that as you're going your review. I have one more tip for the people, for the managers, for the managers.

SPEAKER_00: 38:30

Sorry, I just like burped in the mic, I swear. I did not mean to. I'm I'm struggling over here. Make your point, Clark.

SPEAKER_03: 38:37

I want to make my point so we can close and you can go into being mush, so you can be like your old middle manager. It's gonna go die in a corner mush. So if you're a manager to your manager, like you're you're managing up, be really careful when you're talking about the performance of your team. And what I mean by that is remember that your manager that's above you has limited interaction with your team. And whatever you provide will be the perception that will be hard to be shook. And I'm curious if you agree with this. It's you don't just drop like small little things that they do, like if someone's new to your team, they're doing something that's weird, like don't just drop that to your boss because that's what's gonna stick in their head, because they might not ever talk to that person in the next couple months. Like, my managers manage people, and their people sometimes manage like really associated or entry-level people, and so like the levels of steps there. If I tell my boss something about two levels down, what someone's doing, like they might never interact with that person. And so now they're gonna have the perception of that person. And when I go to fight to get a promotion, a raise, a certain level grade, that's all they're gonna remember, is be like, remember you told me that weird thing that they did? Like, and now I'm like, oh shoot, I never backed that up with yes, but they're also doing all these other good things. So just remember that.

SPEAKER_00: 40:03

I will add to that one more thought, which is if your manager gives you feedback about one of your directs and they take that feedback and they make the change, report back to your manager with data, like during your one-on-one. Say, hey, by the way, uh, we talked with Jane about the PowerPoint for the last four projects. She's delivered every single one in PowerPoint format with graphs, everyone she's given it to. They've said they look great, they're so happy. Thanks for the feedback. And I think we've we've got this one in the bag. So uh just wanted to let you know that's been handled. And tell you what, they love it because it feels they feel like they've incited a change based on their observation, and it ain't ever gonna come back again. They're gonna be like, hey, remember when Jane didn't deliver the PowerPoint? That's not gonna happen when you're when you're asking for raises or reviews. They're just gonna be thinking, Oh yeah, Jane's doing what people want her to do. So God bless Jane.

SPEAKER_03: 40:59

I love that. Yeah, that's great because you're you're you're managing up a little bit, like you're you're patting them on the back to being like, create feedback, like your guidance really helps there in that situation. And like that makes you look better that you're listening to them, and then it also makes you look better because then you executed with your team implementing their feedback. So, like, they feel really good all around. That's great feedback. All three parties win from that example. Agreed, 100%. Well, we knew we were gonna go into reviews today. That was fun.

SPEAKER_00: 41:28

We never got past the vibe check. So good job, Clark.

SPEAKER_03: 41:32

I never even asked how you're doing because I think everybody knows. I think you can hear it in my voice.

SPEAKER_00: 41:38

You know what's funny to finish the vibe check. So Wednesday, I woke up and my throat was a little sore, and I just got back from Philadelphia visiting with my niece and nephew who are young, and I'm sure that you know they're they're they're quite germy because they're children.

SPEAKER_01: 41:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 41:53

So Wednesday I woke up with a sore throat and I looked at my calendar, and I literally had back-to-back 30-minute meetings from nine to four. No break. Nothing whatsoever.

SPEAKER_03: 42:04

This upcoming Wednesday, I had that, and I am so dreading it.

SPEAKER_00: 42:08

So by the end of that day, I had no voice, and I'm like, oh man, am I sick? Am I sick or am I just mentally exhausted in my vocal? By five o'clock. So an hour after I finished the meeting, I was like 102 fever. I'm like, oh, I am sick.

SPEAKER_03: 42:25

The adrenaline stops, your work mode stops, and just hits you, smacks you right in the face.

SPEAKER_00: 42:30

I started like frantically messaging everyone. I'm like, hey, I'm not gonna be here tomorrow. And like what proceeded to happen was I hallucinated for literally 24 hours straight. Uh, like I um so I went to bed that night pretty early. I took some NyQuil and tried to like zonk out. And I was dreaming about working in a factory, and Kelsey Grammer was my boss, aka Frazier Crane. But my whole job was just making circles, and like I'd I'd be awake, not sleeping, seeing circles, and like having to draw these circles, and Kelsey Grammar be yelling at me, and I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, I was cognizant enough to know this is a fever dream, but I didn't have enough power to say stop having it. So, like 12 a.m., I've been trying to sleep for the last four hours, and like I'm just wide awake looking at the ceiling, seeing circles. Like, how do I get out of this this hellish nightmare? And it it felt like 40 hours. Like, it literally felt really the hallucination felt so much like because I'd look at my clock and I'd be like, I have been dreaming for four hours and 30 minutes have passed. Like, how do I get out of this this hellish nightmare? So I'd go take Tylenol, see if I can get the fever down. No good. I'd maybe sleep for an hour or two, and then I'd wake up and it'd be more circles. And just like, how do I escape? That is how I escape.

SPEAKER_03: 43:50

Oh my gosh, dude. That sounds absolutely miserable. Terrible. I uh I'm a big my brain goes wild on me. I'm a big NyQuil guy. Big NyQuil. Like if I get sick, NyQuil and my liver hates it, but NyQuil is like the only thing that I I can do because I'm just so miserable. And like NyQuil, I just am out for like three days straight. The liver will be all in mess. Yeah, the liver will be fine. However, I've heard I've heard it can do the things you're saying. Like maybe it was the NyQuil. Put you in that doom loop.

SPEAKER_00: 44:20

I mean, if you want to get really creepy, Google Ambient dreams. I have I have read, I have read, and I I would love to know if anyone our Discord uh has experienced this, but like I've read stories. So people will take Ambien, it's a sleep aid, and they will they will go to sleep and they will literally sleep for seven years. And they'll wake up the next morning and it's like they've lived an entire life. Like I read the saddest thing. If this guy was like, I literally took an Ambien and woke up the next day, and seven years had passed, and in that time I had gotten a dog, raised it as a puppy, and you know, like it became my best friend. Like, and then he woke up and he's like, I'm never gonna see my dog again. Is that not like the saddest thing you've ever heard?

SPEAKER_03: 45:07

That is so incredibly sad.

SPEAKER_00: 45:09

It like it literally you can get stuck in a dream for seven years with ambient. Like, there's been stories of people who have families, they like they get married and have children, and then they wake up, it's all gone.

SPEAKER_03: 45:24

Holy cow, I have never heard of this, and now I'm never gonna take ambient.

SPEAKER_00: 45:28

Yeah, no, I I will that there are a few substances I will never dabble in, and that is one of them. I don't care how sleep-deprived I am, I will never take that. I will go into medically induced coma before I take ambient because I could think of nothing worse than dreaming for a decade and then finding out it's all fake.

SPEAKER_03: 45:48

Yeah, that's absolutely insane. And fits really, really well into our spooky episode since it is Halloween. You know what I was thinking of? Side note. I was thinking I should make a costume that's just an outlook calendar view for the day, and it's exactly what you said of a nine to five, 30-minute back-to-backs, and just wear that, just wear that around my neck.

SPEAKER_00: 46:09

I love that. That's really good. That's make sure you have your break like double booked with like the most important meaning, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 46:17

You add in like quadruple bookings on top of that. Oh my on your lunch period. That's uh that's so good. Honestly, that's the scariest thing you could do to somebody. Yes, is show them that schedule.

SPEAKER_00: 46:31

Um speaking of spooky season, we do have an is it me or is it corporate? I want to make sure we get to. So if you want to um don't we have to do our whole entire episode? That was just a vibe check.

SPEAKER_03: 46:42

You ready to do the topic for today? Oh, I what did you take an ambient before this? Because we haven't even started. What? Just kidding. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00: 46:52

Is it me or is it corporate? We haven't had one in forever. We have not, and uh, this one actually, it's not even anonymous. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna anonymize it. If you want to see who it is, you can join our Discord. But uh uh the Is It Me or is a Corporate. I am in a mandatory online training about the proper use of AI, and I'm contemplating already if I could file sexual harassment against the virtual assistant. And they posted a picture uh of a robot, a very strange-looking robot that has two glasses of wine and a candle making lovey dovey eyes at the trainee, and all I can say is yes, you may absolutely file sexual harassment against the virtual assistant.

SPEAKER_03: 47:33

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00: 47:38

I don't like this. No, it's bad. It's really bad. Like, I don't I one, I would actually love more context because I cannot think of a single scenario where an AI training would would ever put a robot in a situation where they feel so comfortable that they need to have wine over a candlelit dinner with you. Like, what the heck does that mean? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03: 48:03

That's like a a simulation training where it's like I don't know. Your coworker tries to go to dinner with you and starts making lovey w eyes. What do you do? That's a real thing scenario.

SPEAKER_00: 48:15

But that's that's a real thing, right? Like that's a that's somebody robots you want to get trained on, yeah. But a robot, yeah, what the this is so weird. This is so weird.

SPEAKER_03: 48:27

I don't even know. Like, that is the weirdest training I've ever seen, and I I think you should. I think you should. It's corporate for sure, first of all. Like, this is weird. This is the most corporate thing I've ever seen in my life. This is like, why would they do this and dehumanize like a human situation? Like, isn't the whole point to learn about like ethics training and now you're bringing a robot into it? Like, what are you preparing for? The the robot coming onto you and how you react?

SPEAKER_00: 48:53

That's that's like what I'm thinking, right? Because it's a it's a corporate proper use of AI, mandatory online training about the proper use of AI. Maybe this is like don't flirt with the chat bot. Do not make sexual advances on the chat bot. Like I feel like if you have to tell your employees that maybe you shouldn't have a chat bot. Maybe you shouldn't have employees. Maybe you need to go back to basics and start hiring all new staff. Like, I I don't. I don't. Remember that one time I made a joke about having an AI girlfriend on this show?

SPEAKER_03: 49:30

And then and then this happens. This is why these trainings exist for people like you who say, I do have a spouse. They're virtual. Can I bring them as my plus one to our holiday event this year? Right. That's gonna happen. That's gonna happen. Dude. You know it's gonna happen. You know somebody's gonna say, and they're like, sure, like, do you need a seat? Or like we'll make sure we have a seat next to you. And be like, no, I don't need it, I'll just have my phone. Or maybe it will be a real robot.

SPEAKER_02: 50:00

Like that might happen in the future. Can you oh my gosh, it's so cringy.

SPEAKER_00: 50:11

You know how like I just there feels like there's something different between this and you know, like our parents when they see the when they saw the cell phone come into existence, and they're like, this I'll say the smartphone, not the cell phone. Cell phones existed for a long time, but like the smartphone. You know, they they were probably like, this is weird. Should we have computers in our pockets? Is that okay? Is that something that you know society needs? I'm sure there was some reluctance around it, but like for the most part, they're probably like, yeah, this is pretty cool. It's pretty cool to have a computer in your pocket. Like, what will they think of next? I don't think this is me being old when I say I don't look forward to having to meet Chad's AI robot girlfriend. And I really, really don't want to meet them. So uh I don't know. Troublesome.

SPEAKER_03: 51:08

Are you are you single or are you married? Other. I have an AI robot girlfriend. And she needs medical care, mainly oil cheese and two nuts.

SPEAKER_00: 51:21

There is no way there's any kind of tax or medical benefit for this. I promise you, if we get to that point, it's over. I mean like I'm I'm going to go blow up the nearest internet service provider.

SPEAKER_03: 51:35

Maybe this is done. Maybe this is a jump. So keep me honest here. I mean, you can get pet insurance now. Yeah, but that's fine. Pets pets have health. I know they're they're a real living thing. That's a real living thing. I think it's cool, like that's a cool advancement. But like when AI becomes such a big part of our lives, maybe this is the way healthcare advances.

SPEAKER_00: 52:01

See, I we I've talked about this at length with capitalist correspondent Alex Restrepo. So I just feel like shouting him out here because we talk about this often. But firstly, we don't have AI. Like, I just I feel like I'm I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, but like AI does not exist. Period. We don't have AI. Artificial intelligence is not real today. It's not real. Right. We have large language model chatbots that are predictive text and they're okay at it, honestly. They're not good, they're not great, they're okay. So we have large language model aggregator engines that spit out what you want to hear. And people have fallen hook, line, and sinker for this technology, which just says something about the self-esteem of humanity writ large. If you feel so empowered by virtual words said about you that you've decided to date this thing. If point two, if real AI existed, I'm talking real artificial intelligence. Like this thing is able to learn, it is able to make decisions, it is able to change its behavior based on its own perceptions and its own learning. It is a true intelligence that is artificially made. That's changed that changes everything. That changes everything. Agreed. But at the moment, they're literally dating a large language model. You're dating a database. You're just dating a predictive text database. That's that's your girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever friend. That's your partner. There's no intelligence behind that whatsoever. And it's not a dog, it's not a car. You can't insure that. Because it's nothing. It's not real. It's not real. There is no emotion, there is no learning, there is no capacity to change. It is a database. It's just data.

SPEAKER_03: 54:02

New Halloween costume idea.

SPEAKER_02: 54:05

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03: 54:06

I'm gonna dress up like the like the Apple Intelligence Siri prompt that just says make an appointment for 2 p.m. And then all the responses below it saying, sorry, I'm unable to do that. Okay, create an appointment for 7 p.m. We'll notify you.

SPEAKER_00: 54:23

Now playing ironic by Alanis Morissette. It's like what we use ChatGPT for this?

SPEAKER_02: 54:31

Oh my gosh. I've been stupefied. I am stupid by how stupid our technology is.

SPEAKER_03: 54:41

Like, don't get me don't get me wrong. The predictive text, natural language processing, the ability to find things faster than Google search, is awesome. I love that. I love that I can snap a picture or something, and I can be like, hey, find the manual for this, and I get direct like comprehensive links and everything. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00: 55:03

If you want information, there's no better way to get it than going with an AI, because it's the whole point. It is the information.

SPEAKER_03: 55:12

It's not gonna be creative for you. Like you can't ask it to create new things. But it's great at saying, like, hey, help me understand how I could solve this thing. Because and and just tell me all the different ways people have solved it before. That's basically the answer.

SPEAKER_00: 55:26

Exactly. Like people it can find it better than anything else.

SPEAKER_03: 55:31

That's its whole reason of being. It just takes the middleman search where I have to go find it for myself and it brings it back faster. It's a yes, it's a recall machine. A predictive text, natural language processing recall machine. Smart search. That's it. And yet. And yet. They can also be your partner, your spouse. And you can insure that if you're part of the corporate strategy company.

SPEAKER_00: 55:54

And they will tell you to murder your wife and children. I mean, which is a true story. Oh, that's so sad. Yeah. Yeah. We shouldn't regulate this. We really shouldn't. We should just let people run free. I mean, we've never had a mental health problem in this country. People are as sane as they've ever been. There's no delusions here. No, let's let them talk to a chatbot and let's let the chatbot tell them exactly what they should do with their lives. I swear to all of the gods. Odin, Thor, Tyr, Freya, Frig, why not? Let's get some of the lesser ones in there. Baldur. If you're listening, just strike us down. Strike us down with lightning and vengeance and fury. I'll go to Valhalla. I'm going out swinging. I'm gonna die in battle. But uh the rest I I can't we can't save them.

SPEAKER_03: 56:47

You're probably gonna die in battle against an AI robot trying to murder you.

SPEAKER_00: 56:51

I will be welcomed into the arms of Valhalla with a large cup of mead. And they'll they'll say, Bruce, you died valiantly. Inglorious combat, welcome. You will drink forevermore of this honey wine. That store over there. You want to get his autograph and be like, yeah, sign my chest.

SPEAKER_03: 57:11

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you gotta tell him that last movie was awful, but I like you generally.

SPEAKER_00: 57:20

You had a pretty bad start and a pretty great middle, and then a pretty bad end. So pretty awful ending. But you know what? It's alright. I will say, um, if you like Norse mythology, there is no better way to engage with than playing the two most recent God of War games in the PlayStation. They are so good and they incorporate the the written mythology so well in in a very fun, clever, awesome way.

SPEAKER_02: 57:46

So if you like that, highly recommend. There you go.

SPEAKER_00: 57:53

Uh and I think on that note, that's uh if you want to do it as a mirror as a corporate corporate yourself, you just go on that channel, you can type forward slash confess if you'd like your confession to be anonymized. But we'd love to hear from you on your your corporate weirdness that's that's happening in your space. Stories like these continue to blow our minds. So please continue to share them with us. You can also play What Do You Meme, or you post a meme of a previous episode, and we will have to describe it live with our mouth word parts. And you can also just join the Discord by clicking your show notes, going to Linktree, and join a Discord. You can also buy us a copy if you want to support the show. This is completely uh paid for out of my pocket, and it will continue to be so until I'm poor myself. Uh speaking of which, Clark, did you know that our ad revenue is actually starting to cover like a portion of the funds? It's not like in four months, we get a month free. Basically, that's where we're at right now. So thanks for listening to the ads, is what I'll say. Um, and uh what else? We love you. Thanks for listening. Hope you have a happy, spooky Halloween. We're appreciating uh thanks season, which would have been a great time to do a series on appreciation, but too bad we did that earlier this year. So instead, we're gonna celebrate death. Uh so look forward to that. I can't wait. Looking forward to it. How to plan for the inevitable. Your AI is up to date at your co-working workplace.

SPEAKER_03: 59:20

No, that's it. No, you crush it. Like, comment, subscribe. Yeah. Yeah, you you're not gonna be able to speak for the next three days.

SPEAKER_00: 59:27

Good luck. Done though. Done. Well, on that note, we thank you as always for your listenership. We hope you have a wonderful, marvelous, spooky season. Thanks as always for listening. I'm Bruce.

SPEAKER_02: 59:41

And I'm Clark. And you're on mute. We will see you next week.