SPEAKER_00: 0:05

There he is. He's in here. My guy. He's back. My man. My man. Um. Welcome back to Corpus Strategy Podcast giving an email. I'm Bruce.

SPEAKER_02: 0:17

And I'm Clark.

SPEAKER_00: 0:20

Ooh, that that was in my ears. And in everyone's else's ears, too. It's good. Nice little ear tickle to wake up and start the day. Vibe check, how you doing, Clark?

SPEAKER_02: 0:30

Things up. It's the weekend. It's the weekend. You know, I've been balancing like work, but also days with a lot of house projects lately. Just like stuff going on. And there's something just so satisfying about working with the hands. You know, when you build something outside and you're like, I did that. I built that with my hands. I'm not just on the key, yeah, I'm not on the keyboard all day long. I actually did something that I can physically tangibly see and feel. There's something to that. I get why people retire now and go into woodworking. You know? Oh, yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05

Did you know I was a woodworker? Did you know that about me? I actually did not know that. Were you really? Yeah. I was. I actually managed a woodworking studio for a year. Wait, what? How did I do that? Yeah, for realties. So basically, I've talked about this before, but I always admit this part because it's kind of cool, but it doesn't really add anything to my career story. So, you know, I was a landscaper for four years in college. Yeah. But I took a fifth, I took a victory lap because, you know, kind of stupid. So my victory lap in college, I was I took multiple electives with the sculpture teacher at the college I went to. And he said I had a real knack for sculpture form and furniture making. So I took a woodworking course with him. And he's like, dude, you're great at this. You could do this professionally if you wanted to. And uh I it's it's I think it's the video games, in all honesty. Like I just have a real knack for anything that involves hands, precision, kind of working with things. So I ended up building this project as part of my my class with him, where I built this stool that weighed almost 150 pounds of balsa wood, but it was, I think it was 350 individually cut two by two inch cubes that I doweled together to make this pixelated stool that was I painted it like glossy red. I ended up selling the thing to the school for$500. But because of that project, uh, he's like, you know, you're you're very good at all of this. Uh I work here during the day, but we have no one to manage a studio at night, so students can come in and do their projects. Would you be the nighttime studio manager? I'm like, whoa. Hell yeah, what's the pay? And he's like, less than you make now. I'm like, cool. I mean, I I like this though, and I'd like to spend more time doing it. So I quit my landscaping, irrigation maintenance job to become the sculpture studio manager, and I literally helped kids not cut their fingers off because I know my way around woodworking tools and utilities. That is why how did I not know this?

SPEAKER_02: 2:55

How did I not know? Yeah, like I remember, I definitely remember you talking about doing projects. I think I remember this stool that you did. I don't think I ever saw a picture though, and you know, the two by two inch squares that you built from. I want to see it. I feel like you got to share a picture.

SPEAKER_00: 3:12

Yeah, I I'll find one and post. I don't have many, which is kind of sad. Yeah, uh, I'm not a picture person, which is strange. I I just I have you know thousands of pictures of our dogs, and there's like less than a hundred pictures of me and my wife just collectively. Like we just don't take pictures, and I don't take pictures a lot of my work, which is strange. Yeah, I'll find one, I'll find one and post it.

SPEAKER_02: 3:34

Yeah, yeah, we're very similar. We don't take pictures together unless it's like candids or other people taking pictures of us. I think I've probably taken a lot of pictures of you and your wife when we were just hanging out and doing something candidly and sent it to you. Those might be pictures you actually have more than you have yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 3:48

I yes, I definitely I think the pictures we have of us are more often from other people than from ourselves. Yeah, yeah, it sounds about right. And it's it's the same with my work, is like I don't take pictures a lot of my work, which is kind of sad because I've done some really cool stuff. Like, oh, I should have took more pictures of that. And it's like I have one crummy picture of the stool like in the shop without a nice background. I've been meaning to go back to the college because I sold it to them and they they put it in the library. And it was funny because I used to go to that library for books and study, and like I'd see my bench or my stool there and be like, ah, I made money on that. It was like, you know, that's pretty awesome. When you did the math, it was probably like less than seven dollars an hour, but you know, still to have your point, you know, teachers.

SPEAKER_02: 4:29

You created something, and then you get to see it, everyone else gets to see it, and hopefully utilize it. Like, so that's a cool feeling.

SPEAKER_00: 4:34

Yeah, and it's it's kind of sad because I I love this professor, super cool uh dude. And he told me, he's like, you know, you really could go into this professionally if you wanted to. And I'm like, how much do you think I could make doing that? Because I'm doing a computer science degree at this time, you know. He's like, how much how much do you think you get my make? He's like, you know, probably on like 30 grand a year. And I was like, oh no. I'm making more in my internship part-time right now than I would make as a furniture maker, a boutique artistic furniture maker. Because like the one thing you never want to do when you're good at something like this is go to a crafts fair and sell craft. Because then art is not craft and craft is not art. Art is where you make the money, craft is where you grind out and throw your life away. And I and he told me that. I'm just repeating to you what he said to me. No offense to anyone who does crafts and the sale of crafts, but that was an artist's opinion. And I was like, I can't do this. I'm too money motivated. Like, I cannot. Like, I love this, and I'll do it in my old age because I know it's it within me to do it, but no, I'm not gonna do this for money.

SPEAKER_02: 5:35

So, you know, it's funny, I've always been like I've always been handy, but not like delicate or precise. So, like soldering, putting together like microcontrollers, I kind of suck at because I'm just I one, I have shaky hands, and so like a shaky hand and trying to do that, I'm just not good at it. But like you tell me, like, go build a barn or a house, it's like I'll figure out how to do that. You want me to do a shower inside your home. I've built and done whole shower installations, plumbing and all from the ground up. So it's like I can do all that, I can figure that stuff out, but I'm not like the precision PC builder, microcontroller builder, solderer, even though I'd love to be, because I love doing that stuff. But for me, it's just anything you can do with your hands, I think is like a good break from just being on the computer all day long.

SPEAKER_00: 6:23

It is so funny how opposite we are in in so many ways, because I'm I am the polar. You give me a big project, like a shower, it's like I'm just gonna pay someone to do that. That's too big for me. Like, nah, nah, I don't I don't mess with that. But I literally have uh a 2DS over here, and I just bought a USB-C adapter that I'm gonna solder into it. Uh like, love that stuff. I could, yeah, that's fun, that's good for me, you know. I love that kind of stuff. You know, it's funny. I love watching it's like, ooh, perfect bead of solder, make it look like it came from the factory. Like, oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_02: 6:55

It's funny, man. I I uh I I've watched a lot of, I follow actually a few YouTube channels that do that kind of stuff, and I love it. I'm like, I want to do this so bad, but I know in my heart of hearts, it's gonna suck for me, and I'm really not gonna enjoy it when I actually get into it. And going back to what you were saying about like a craft, like and and your teacher telling you, like, basically, you're gonna earn pennies if you decide to do this. In high school, I took Auto Shop and I loved Auto Shop because you get to work with your hands, you get to build something, it runs, you get to get it from point A to point B. Like that was a lot of fun. And welding was so easy because it's like, I don't care about the perfection of the build or the bead or whatever it is. It's like I can just make these nasty looking welds, and as long as they hold, it doesn't matter. And I remember my Auto Shop teacher being like, Yeah, you could do this. Like, you could, but don't do it because you're not gonna earn anything as a mechanic. He's like, if you're gonna use these skills, go work on an oil rig in the middle of an ocean for like five years, earn$300,000 a year, and then don't work after that. Yeah, that was his advice to us. He's like, Don't do what I did and become a mechanic and then become a high school teacher.

SPEAKER_00: 8:02

When uh it's it's so funny. Like when my professor taught me how to weld, he was like, you know, you can weld and you know it'll hold, but true welders make it look like a roll of nickels. And he's like, Okay, you gotta get it. One more thing for me to like obsess over and get perfect. So yeah, that's funny. That's funny. I love that. You know, I've been I've been noodling with the idea uh about maybe getting into like automotive, but really not car. Like, I might, I don't know. Like, I'm I'm kind of these Ducati motorcycles are so beautiful. Like, I feel like it would be nice to just have one and know how to maintenance it and work on it, and like because again, it's smaller, it's something that's a little more precise, and I could I could I could see myself being like a Ducati motorcycle guy, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 8:49

Yeah, that could be there's something so rewarding about and this is this is gonna sound like such a boomer comment, but I'm gonna say it. Like just knowing how something works and being able to just fix it, and even if it's old school, like technology has ruined these things because when the tech breaks, there's a lot of the times there's nothing you can do, and that sucks. So buying an old 1980s Chevy and fixing it up, it's like if something breaks, you just go buy the part and you put it in yourself. There's no technology, or if it cranks, it cranks, or you build the part, yeah, and if it cranks, it cranks. Like you don't have to worry about the technology faulting or some stupid fuse that blew, and now your whole tech system won't be able to connect to the cloud and your subscriptions failed. It's like you don't have to worry about any of that. And there's something so nice about just being able to own that and build like your motorcycle idea is great because you would just be able to self-maintain that. If something broke, you fix it, put it back together, and then you get to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00: 9:42

Well, you know, there's been a long time conspiracy theory that the whole reason they've added in computers to cars, and you see this with like companies like BMW, is they they always wanted to get to a service model. And I can charge you for your radio subscription, I can charge you for uh heating heated seats, I could charge like what can I put as a self, uh, you know, software as a service model or just a service model on a vehicle. And you only do that by putting tech in there. But the conspiracy is they also did that because it takes the power out of the shop owners and puts it back into the vehicle manufacturers, right? Because oh, if you bring your car into the Honda dealership, maybe we can upsell you a new car. Yeah, right. But if you're taking it to your guy down the street who's been doing it for 500 years uh and he's just gonna be able to fix the thing, yeah, like that's that loses our upsell opportunity. And you see this, right? Like this is just corporate doing what they do best, trying to breed people dry and taking money away from good, talented individuals who run the nearby auto shop.

SPEAKER_02: 10:44

Yep, yep, 100%. I uh where I live, it's a little rural, I guess you could say. And our old house was a little bit older, and we had a well for our water, and we also had an old, old AC unit. And the guy we'd call is just an old guy that isn't gonna be nice to you. He's just gonna do his thing, he's gonna be quiet, he's gonna fix the issue, and he's gonna ask for your money in cash, and then he's gonna walk away. And you're gonna have something that's working, and it's gonna be great. And it's funny because he would come in and be like, 15 more years. That's what he told us. He's like, don't upgrade. He's like, if you upgrade, it's gonna keep on breaking. He's like, I only service these units because they'll never break. And if you keep servicing it, it'll last forever.

SPEAKER_00: 11:23

The the number of refrigerators and refrigeration repairs we've had to go through since we upgraded our fridge. Like we've gone through two fridges and both of which had broken, I'd probably combined six times now. Right. And it's just it's crazy, right? And this so the first fridge we got was very expensive and very like luxe. And that thing broke to the point that, like, well, you gotta buy a new one. I'm like, what? It's not even been five years. Like, you gotta buy a new one. This isn't covered by warranty. Like, how? It's the fridge that broke, not covered by warranty. So we went and got like, okay, what's the most what is the cheapest but most stable, like never gonna break fridge? And we got that one, and that one's broke four times since then. It's like, dude, you can't, you cannot. We did an entire episode on shittification, we did. It is like it is everywhere, and it's unavoidable. And I agree with your AC mechanic because if you buy a new one, it will break. I buy things accepting that they're gonna break now.

SPEAKER_02: 12:21

Yep, it's the worst. 100% agree with you. Well, you want to talk about something fun? Let's do it. I want to take you into a hypothetical. Okay. And I want to play this out with you. You're you've been an individual contributor. You've been a manager. So I want you to think back to the time where your manager was able to be deep into your work because they did the work before, right? That's pretty normal. You know, I was a software engineer, became an engineering manager, went to product management. Like, that's a pretty typical path, but you know how to do the thing below you. So when you're managing people, you can help. And you can be like, hey, I know what you're running into, I can relate, I can be able to kind of push you, you know, into whatever you need to to solve the issue or or to progress in your career because I've been there. But I want to play a hypothetical here. Maybe that's not the best way. Maybe there's another way. Have you ever heard of the strictly HR managers? They don't do the role. Did you have the strictly HR? Yeah. I want to talk about this. I've never had this. Yeah. I have never had this before. I have only had managers that have done the thing before at some point in their career. And so they functionally know how to do the job. They can do the job. It's just they're not doing the job because they're managing everyone else who's doing the job. And so, like, I've basically had managers who can step in if they need to and get their hands dirty. But I've never had, I almost had actually, I remember at uh Big Corp that we used to work at together, I almost stepped into that situation where I would have a manager that didn't know anything about what I did, wasn't contextually aware of the projects, and they were a function manager. So they were a product management manager, but they weren't going to be in the work with you. You had a manager for your work, and that person was separate from them, which was really weird to me, but I was like, maybe there's pros and cons of having a separation of concerns between the functional role and knowing how to do it, versus I'm just your people manager versus I'm your direct project manager that can help you and wants to tell you what project to do next. So maybe it's three things. Maybe it's those three things. It's functional manager, HR manager, and then like day-to-day project kind of manager that may or may not be able to help you.

SPEAKER_00: 14:47

So I had an HR manager when we were at Big Corp, we were no longer on the same team. When I moved to the Greenfield project, they gave me the HR manager, and that dude was the worst. I don't know. Do you remember when I got in like an actual yelling match with him? Like in front of the company? Yeah. Yep. Because that was great. He sucked the bat, he did not understand anything about what we were doing. And then he basically told me, He's like, Well, you're you're a senior level developer, but we can't give you that promotion because there are these geriatric asshats who, if they leave, everything falls apart. So you have to give them like a 40% raise every year, and there's just no money left for you. And like that dude, I I remember him fondly because I want to fondly punch him in the face, even to this day, like did not understand the first thing about what anyone was doing, only understood like how to kiss the boot that he reported to, and would never waver from that boot kissing. And when it came to actually managing his people, didn't do it at all. Like, couldn't offer career advice, couldn't offer pay advice, couldn't do no matter what you asked him, he could not do it because all he could do was HR manage. He could manage, like, you know how they say color between the lines, right? He could manage between the lines and that was it. And as you know, as a people manager, and as I know as a people manager, there is no managing between the lines. Like nothing ever falls under a strict, like, oh, this is totally, you know, within the the HR training I went through. I know how to handle it. It's like, no, man, that that never happens in management. You're gonna get stuff that is so left field that you have to understand the job because otherwise you're not gonna know how to deal with the person and the problem they're having, because the the job is almost always likely the problem, unless it is an actual HR violation, in which case you just go to HR, let them handle it. That's that's not my problem.

SPEAKER_02: 16:42

Yeah, yeah, it's funny. As you're saying this, it's making me think about like when you have conversations with HR. And when you have a conversation with HR, they have to ask so many questions because they just you have to lay the context, right? And they just don't understand. Like you you try to explain everything to them, and you're like, hey, I'm struggling with this because of this, and they're like, Well, why don't you just do this? And it's like, well, I can't because of this. And they're like, Well, what about that? And you're like, Well, I could, but then it would lead to that, like they don't have enough context to be helpful a lot of the times. Like, they can offer generic advice and they can be there for you. And obviously, if something goes really wrong, they can be there to support you. But like day-to-day work stuff, they can't help guide you, they can't help you. And that that's the way that I feel about this because I've I've had this situation come up before, and I'm like, wait, so you won't know anything about what I'm doing day-to-day, but you know what I do as a function, and you want to be a manager of me. So when I come to you, what we're gonna talk about, like, well, what's your how do you create user stories? And then they're gonna be like, well, you know, you want to use a as a I want so that structure maybe use behavior-driven, you know, development statements. And like it's like, okay, that's great, but that doesn't work with my team. And they're like, what do you mean? That's the way it should be done. That's the way the book says it's done. It's like, yeah, but that's not real. Like, if you go into my project deadlines, that's not gonna happen for us, or the complexity of the software we're working on, or whatever. Like their advice, now you just go to them, you you can't really get anything but surface level job function help because they don't understand the specific context, they're not deep enough in it. And if they were trying to become deep enough in it, now they're encroaching on your actual day-to-day work manager. It's just a whole weird situation.

SPEAKER_00: 18:24

When you're when you're dealing with HR or an HR manager, the only thing you can really talk about is behavior or pay. And that's it. Like there's yeah, there's really no wavering between those two things because they just don't understand. So even if you're going to go to them, like if I had a problem with one of my team members and I needed to go to HR with for some reason about them, I would have to figure out a way to abstract what they do away from the behavior and basically say, you know, like Sally is just being a profane individual to this other person anytime they have to be in the same room together, and that's creating friction. Uh like I have to remove the fact that it's because Sally thinks this person's an idiot and this person is terrible at doing their job. Like, you can't bring that into it because they're not going to do anything about like you've you've made it too complicated for them. But like when you can just abstract the behavior and simply tell a story of people acting out away, that's HR's whole reason to be. Now, I will say to your other point, the best managers I've had are the ones that have recently been in the job that I've been in by far. Because they understand it the most, they're able to mentor me the best. And like if they were if the last job they had was my job, I know that they're gonna be able to teach me everything I need to know so the next job I have can be their next job.

SPEAKER_02: 19:52

Yeah. Yeah. I've I've really liked that. And I think the best manager that I've had has been that way as well. Worst managers I have had have been that way. So it's really interesting to think about. Yeah, like some of my best managers know enough where they could step in and do my job, do the projects. Like they would be able to figure it out. They're very capable. But also, I've had managers who can't let go and they're constantly in your crap and in your business, and they won't just let you do your job because they're just stuck. And they're like, I still can show I'm valuable by doing your job too. And it's like, well, what why am I here? Why did you hire me to do this? And it's funny, I actually have had a manager that did both. They were both the best because they could step in, but also the worst because they stepped in. So it's such a strange two.

SPEAKER_00: 20:40

Yeah, isn't that strange? But you know what that tells me though? Like it's it kind of indicates that they're not capable of doing their current job.

SPEAKER_02: 20:47

Yeah, that or they don't know what their current job is or how to be successful in it. I agree. Right. Yeah. That that's what I kind of look at. And I think it's natural when you get promoted out of your individual contributor role and then into a manager role where you're maybe maybe hiring your replacement, right? Like you're hiring somebody to take over what you were doing prior. It's natural to like not want to let go. Yeah. And like want to be involved. And you feel like you know all the contacts. You're like, well, I could do it faster because I know X, Y, and Z, so I'm just gonna do it. And wrong answer. Like, that is not how you need to approach the situation. I've also inherited teams where I frankly didn't know anything about the projects they were working on. And I think you could go about that in good ways, and I've had managers go about that in good ways, and then you could go about it in bad ways. For me, what's always been successful is just listening, asking questions, and trying to understand. Don't go in and say, well, this is wrong, and I've done this. This is wrong, like we should definitely do it this way instead, when you don't have all the context. It's like the people in the role are going to be able to give you the information you need, and you should sit there, understand, and before you just go in, you know, swinging, try to understand the context and the lay of the land before you start changing things.

SPEAKER_00: 22:04

Yeah, I I truly think the best manager you can be, and I have no science to back this up, but this is just based on my own experience of really good managers, is they could do your job if they needed to, but they trust you enough that they will allow you to figure out how to do your job and only offer advice when you come to them for it. Because they know part of the learning experience is the affriction you experience in learning how to do this job. Right. And you know, they only jump in when they know this is about to be a cataclysmic problem that could negatively impact both you and me. So I have to step in here and help. But that's been like my favorite manager was my last one, and that was him to a T. Like so good at if I I was like, I don't really know, like what's what am I supposed to do here? You know, he would give me something to kind of lean on and work for and and work through, but then step away. He's like, I've given you what you need, right? You can now go learn how to do this. And I did, and that helped me so, so much at becoming the the the world's best marketer that I am. And uh I attribute that to his management style, and he could do my he could do my job better than I could with his eyes closed, but he knew by letting me do it it would make me into a better marketer than I was. You said something that's really important.

SPEAKER_02: 23:26

Like you came to him, and I don't want to gloss over this because I think it's actually worth diving into. You came to him for advice on something, but why did you feel comfortable doing that? Like, I think that's really important because if a manager just comes in swinging and they want to change everything, and they they always tell you, like, no, you should be doing this instead and not like trusting you, you're probably not gonna come to them with problems. Like, you're probably gonna stop doing that because they're just gonna take over and tell you exactly what to do, even though it's not relevant. So, how what behaviors did they do to make you feel comfortable enough to come to them and say, hey, I'm trying to figure this out? Like, can I get your advice?

SPEAKER_00: 24:09

This individual, let's just refer to him as the Hawaiian. Uh, actually, this this behavior started before I even worked for it. Is this a pizza order? Yeah, I'll take number eight, the Hawaiian. The Hawaiian. So the Hawaiian actually approached me when I was in my previous role and said, Hey, you have the skill set you need to be very successful doing what my team does. Okay. That's really cool. I never thought about that before. I always thought your team didn't do jack shit. So please tell me more. And uh, like, you know, we we kind of joke back and forth, but I said, Look, you know, marketing is super interesting to me because I don't understand it. And I do think my skill set could help you in some ways, but I I can do the thought work, but I don't understand the procedure and the process. And he's like, Oh, that I can teach you. If you ever feel stuck on that, you just ask me and I'll tell you whatever you need to know. And like, that was before we even interviewed, before I even like he was giving me assurance from the I think you should come work for me pitch. And then when I started working for him, there was no hesitation, right? Like, if I was gonna go build something based on my knowledge, it was easy, I would go build it. But then when he asked me to do something that was, you know, I need you to go build a message map. I'm like, what the hell is a message map? Like, I don't know what that is. He's like, Oh, here, here's an example of a previous one I've done. Let me know if you need any help understanding. I was like, oh, okay, I'm learning here, I'm figuring this out, and I can kind of fit these pieces together. Like, that was the best manager I've ever had because his style was so, when you need it, I will give it to you. Approachable.

SPEAKER_02: 25:39

Yep. Yeah, I I take away like three things from that. One, they acknowledged your potential and your skill set. And like a good manager should observe and recognize that. Be like, okay, there's some good qualities here. Like, let me let me make sure I call those out because those are you know gonna be critical to them being successful in the role, which builds trust with you to be like, oh, they're they see me. Like they acknowledge me, they see me, they understand that I'm good at what I do. They offered you support. So, like, hey, I'm not gonna tell you what to do, but I'm here for you. Like, if you get stuck, come to me. I'm approachable, like come to me with your problems as you run into them. And then the third thing is they they let you do the job. Like they said, hey, you know, they took you into the team, they gave you stuff and said, hey, this is what I need you to do. So they told you this is what success looks like, here's what I need you to do, and come to me, you know, when you run into issues. But they didn't tell you exactly what to do to get there. Now they might tell you like a specific strategy to be like, hey, part of the process. In process and procedure, you can train anybody. You just got to find somebody that's capable and smart and willing to do it. So, like they acknowledge, like, hey, here's the process, here's the procedure. If you get stuck, again, approach me. And then they set the example. And like, that's what I love about that is here's how I do it. Here's an example. Go use that as your reference, go build it, and I'll give you feedback. Like, that's the best way to do it as a manager, because then moving forward, you're always going to come back and be like, I know this is an open door, I know they know what I can and what I can't do, and I can approach them comfortably.

SPEAKER_00: 27:11

The the most amazing thing about this story, too, is excuse my clock. Uh, this man was 12 hours behind me because he did live in Hawaii. Yeah. And to be able to like train and to nurture and foster me and turn me into the world's greatest marketer, that's that's one thing. But it's another thing to do it with a 12-hour time difference every single day. And, you know, it's just it's a testament to how good of a manager he was, even though we usually only had like three hours of overlap every day. Like we were able to make that much progress over the course of I think three years I was in marketing at Big Corp with him and like set me on the path for success of where I am today.

SPEAKER_02: 27:50

That's awesome. Yeah, you know, a little story time from my side. I I've had this happen too, where my team was growing and my manager wanted to give another team to me, even though I really didn't know about what they did. And I made the mistake as a young manager to be like, okay, that's fine. I mean, I know how to do product management. Like, I'll I'll just step in and you know, I'll listen for a little while, but then I'll help kind of write the ship because it was a little bit of a problem area. And so I stepped in and I immediately kind of started stepping on toes. And like stepping in with the teams, helping guide backlog refinements. And even though it seemed effective, it actually turns out everything I was doing was counterproductive because behind the scenes, like in a backlog refinement, right? The whole point is to go through and create stories for tangible work so that you can complete it within a sprint cycle, whether it's a week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, whatever. And so you want to be able to take big projects and break it down into small tasks that you can complete within that time period. And so, like, we breeze through the refinement. Like, I don't understand why you can only get through one story in a refinement. We just got through eight today. Like, that's that's this is how you do it. And like, I hope that that works. And it turns out everybody was just being complicit because I was the big swinger in the room. And they were looking at me like, exactly, I don't feel comfortable fighting with you. And like, I'm just gonna, if if it gets tension tension, if tension grows, man, I can't speak today. If tension grows, then I'm gonna basically back off the situation and just say yes and be complicit. And in reality, what I eventually figured out is someone came to me like, hey, I know you think you got through eight stories. We spent eight more hours going through all of that afterwards, after you left, because there were still so many things we had to figure out together. And so it may have felt productive, it was actually very counterproductive to what we were trying to do. And now everybody's kind of scared of you coming in and trying to do this again.

SPEAKER_00: 29:42

So, so I want to go back. I want to go back to something you said. Yeah, you've never had an HR manager manage you before, correct? That's correct. They've all been pretty hands-on. This is exactly why you had this problem. Because you know my team. We've talked about them. You know, I I run a team that is much larger than just marketing. Like one of the two of the dudes on my team were focused on community and partner relations, which I know nothing about. And I got ahead of this when they came on and said, listen, you're the expert. I'm just the I'm the budget guy. Like you do what you know is best, tell me why it's best. And if you ever get friction, I will defend you with my life because you're smarter than me in every way in this regard. And I trust you implicitly. If you're gonna sandbag me, make it look good, but uh I will fight for you whatever it takes. I just can't, I don't want to learn your job, I don't want to know anything about your job, I want you to be successful, and that's it at the end of the day. But that's because of what I talked about. My previous manager experience pissed me off so much because he didn't know what I did. He didn't like, and yes, I don't really want to know what these individuals do, but I know they're smart, I know they're talented, and I just want to make sure I represent them as best I can. So I did the opposite, which is basically I'm gonna trust you that you are the amazing person you are, and and make you shine any way that I can, versus try and correct, course, teach, enable, because that would just be a waste of my time and it would make them dislike me. Yeah. It's because I had that experience and you didn't have that.

SPEAKER_02: 31:16

It's true. Yeah, and when I inherited the team, it was because they were behind on projects. And like when you really boil it down, it's because they couldn't maintain and build a strong backlog of work to do. So they would run dry all the time. And it's like, well, what are we working on? Now we got to spend a whole week just refining work instead of actually working. And so my first objective was like, oh, product management one-on-one. That's what we control, the backlog. Like, we will build the backlog. And so I was like, yeah, we should be able to do this. Like, let's push through this and we can do it. And I definitely went in just gunslinging, and that was the wrong approach. And I learned that the hard way after it was very counterproductive.

SPEAKER_00: 31:52

I I love how retrospective you've been about this. In in hindsight, what would you do differently if you could go back and do it again?

SPEAKER_02: 32:00

I think I would have spent more time observing and asking questions. And I don't think I understood enough of the context. And we talk about this a lot, but the people are the hardest part of work. Like understanding the people involved. Like, process is fine, technology is not that hard. It's managing people that are building those things and growing and scaling teams. Like, that is way harder because of the intricacies of being a human. And so I think I would have definitely spent more time with my product owner, my product manager, just saying, like, hey, just let me observe for a while. I'm just gonna listen in and like afterwards, you know, you tell me what you think worked, but didn't work, and I can give you some feedback, but I'm gonna let you continue to be the driver. And I will be there just silently supporting and trying to give you tips on how we can improve and make things better. And I think that's where I definitely learned for another team in the future, a couple years later, that I took on that I was like, I'm not stepping in, I'm not gonna get into the weeds of what you're doing, but I'll be there to observe. And it was just stark contrast between what happened before because then they start coming to me with problems. They were like, hey, I'm running into this, you know, I appreciate the feedback you gave me last time. What would you do in this situation? And I was much more impactful through that.

SPEAKER_00: 33:15

You you've got me thinking because it's so funny. When we start a job, you go through the 3060-90, which we've done an entire web series, podcast series on in the past. I think that was pretty good. Go listen to it if you haven't. But you know, as a new person, you go through a 3060-90, but when you're already established in a company, we're moving you to a different department. We're adding more uh team to your workload, we're doing all that. It is like ready, set, go. You need to be doing immediately. When I think the proper procedure would actually be to do another 30, 60, 90 on this new department, this new team, this new individual that's coming. Like it is the same for you as it is for them, as it is for a new person. Like you have to learn to work with the people because the people are the hardest part. And if both sides are going through that 30, 60, 90, I think that will find a gel and solve the friction that likely occurs versus coming in with a hammer and saying, I know how to fix your problem. You're just too damn slow. And uh like that's never gonna happen, you know? Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 34:19

And especially when you're a manager of people, like you set the weather. And so, like I had a VP who came in, and that that was his his exact approach. Basically, it was like a quiet, a quiet just observer. And all he did was ask questions for a good 90 days, and it was like, I'm not contributing, but I'm trying to understand so I can help. And so there was a lot of trust there in. You know what you're doing, do your job, but I'm gonna be really annoying because I need to understand what you're doing, what's working, what's not working, and I'm gonna have a list of a million things I need from you just to understand the context of what's happening. But I really appreciated that approach because over time, since they were never butting in and trying to offer you know all this helps, all this help and this tips, and they were just there to support, like I found myself going to them with problems just to be like, hey, I know you had experience that you told me doing this. I actually could see how you know we could do better if we were to incorporate that practice here. You know, how did that work? You know, how would it work with our teams and what are you observing? And I was much more apt to go and talk to that person because they were letting me continue to do what I was doing. But I think that's the right way to approach it. And I definitely think even if you're transferring, especially in a big company, like there has to be a 30, 60, 90 period. And I think that's where a lot of companies get it wrong, is they're just like, they're a software developer, just switch them to another team. They can just get in there and start working. It's like they don't know the people, they don't understand the people. I mean you've never developed software before, you know? Yeah, exactly. And it's like they will take 90 days to even understand the code base and try to be a little productive in fixing maybe some bugs that have come up that are really, really super easy to fix. They're not going to just be able to switch swap between teams and maintain that context. And so, yeah, I 100% agree with you. When you switch teams, there is at least a 90-day learning period to be a little bit productive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:08

And it's just companies would benefit so much from slowing down. And it's funny, I feel like that's such a that's probably the most offensive statement you could say to like a McKinsey consultant, right? Because their whole thing is fire, fire 40%, rehire, go faster. And by slowing down, observing, evaluating, and then making informed decisions, fixing the actual problems, what you do is you speed up gradually, but then you maintain momentum versus go fast, stop, go fast, stop, go fast, stop, which is not actually going fast at all. It's just stopping. You know, it's the what is it? What's it called in traffic when you speed up just to slow down again and it causes a bigger shockwave? You know, that's like effect. There's a word for that. I don't know what it is, but I didn't know what it is, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:00

Yeah, I 100% agree with you. Yeah, I think like the pros of an HR manager in a functional role that requires like decades of experience. Like I think like maybe maybe being a lawyer, being someone, you know, in the first responder categoryslash medical category, it's like in those cases, having someone who's just functionally good at that, but they don't know the context of what you're doing, it's they're they're a knowledge expert, right? It's just like a teacher. It's like you go to the teacher so you can learn. Like, and if you're in that kind of role, I think that works. But at least in software and most dynamic businesses where it's so project oriented, unless you have the context, I don't think you can be a super productive manager. Like you have to be able to get your hands dirty, understand the context, so you can be relevant in helping your team.

SPEAKER_00: 37:58

We've talked, you know, we had um Keelan on uh a few years ago. I was literally talking about this earlier today with my wife. But like, you know, she talked about the benefits and some of the challenges with unions. And I think in that situation where you have a union rep who is likely you, but also you looking out for your interests, you can get by with just an HR manager. Right. Because you have someone who's advocating for you and your skill set and your team skill set as the union representative. And then you might just have the HR rep who manages your payroll. Man, you know, you send your request for time off. Like they're a systems manager, basically. Right. They're a systems and grievances manager versus someone who knows your work intimately, but you have that union representative who knows you and your work. So I think you can bifurcate these things and get away with it that way. And I think firefighters is another great example, right? Like the man, you have the fire chief who is kind of leading the team, but you also probably have an HR manager who's managing payroll, managing, you know, benefits and healthcare, like time, like doing the schedules for who's on and who's off. Yeah. There are absolutely instances where having sort of mixed leadership management works fantastically. I do think it breaks down in enterprise tech and things like that, where it is so hard to quantify what it is. Firefighter puts out a fire or goes help someone who's experiencing you know an overdose or something like that. Like their job is visual. I can tell a good firefighter from a bad one because the good one's fighting the fire and the bad one's over in the corner picking his nose. When you're looking at software engineers, the one picking his nose might be doing the most work. Like there is no telling from an observational view who is good or bad at their job. So you need a either a union or a direct manager who is experienced in that work to be able to understand like, is this person doing good? Are they bad? Do they need a pay raise? Do they need a pip? Like, you can't get that information from HR. You have to have the domain knowledge. So I think. I think that's kind of the spectrum. Uh, on one end, you have your software engineer, at the other end, your firefighter. And you can there are various levels of HR involvement there. But I I think that's the split, really.

unknown: 40:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:11

Good example. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great example.

SPEAKER_02: 40:14

Yeah. And I think, you know, most of my managers, and the the one that I think about is the one that's good and bad for being able to do your job is yeah, they just step on your toes all the time. I think that's like the downside, is like if they're way too in the weeds, then they kind of turn into a micromanager. And though those are the toxic traits you have to one, avoid if you are a manager, let people do their jobs. I think is one of the biggest takeaways. We need to do a takeaway section, by the way. Self-reminder for us to do takeaways. Outcomes. Outcomes, yes. So yeah, I think that's like it's great because that manager could jump in and do the work. Like if I was gone and be like, okay, everything's fine. Like they've got it covered, but it also suck because I had no autonomy and they would just jump into everything and be like, okay, can I do my job? Why am I even here?

SPEAKER_00: 40:58

An outcome of a manager like that is when you don't let someone fail and you don't let them get their hands dirty, they're never going to learn and get better. You're you're basically prohibiting them from becoming what they should become. So you cannot micromanage, you cannot block every bad decision that you foresee. Because sometimes bad decisions aren't bad decisions, they're actually brilliant ideas, and you're you're stifling growth.

SPEAKER_02: 41:25

Right. Yeah, and I think that's that's the biggest thing is there are learning opportunities that you have to afford your team as a manager. And that sometimes means allowing them to fail because they don't understand the consequences of something that they're so passionate about. It's like, yeah, yeah, you should do it. Give it a shot. And you know, we can keep on having conversations about it. And sometimes you have to let that happen for them to either get it out of their system or understand because it's just not getting through their head. So I think that's a really good takeaway. I also think, you know, from an HR manager perspective, what's really great about that is if your role is functionally heavy, like you talked about, like then it's super great because obviously you need like a teacher, you need a mentor to kind of guide you through it. Um, and it also has a separation of concern to be like, okay, I get you have these projects and you're working with these people, but you're not seeing the bigger picture of what you do and where you could go. And that's what I'm here to help you do. And so I like that approach of separating the two because they're not so deep in the work that they're outside of the work and they can focus on you developing as an individual. And I think that's that's the nice thing about having something like that is it's disconnected from work and they're trying to help you progress in your career. And I think that's a huge pro we didn't really touch on, but all my functional managers have been so focused on doing the work because that's what they know how to do. A lot of the times the career stuff kind of falls to the wayside.

SPEAKER_00: 42:52

Well, uh, something we didn't talk about, and I think this fits perfectly in the outcome section, is sales and sales managers specifically. Every sales manager was previously a sales representative. And you have to have that because they're the ones who are sniffing out your pipeline, looking at your deals, seeing, is Janet actually going to close$2 million this quarter or is Janet sandbag and hardcore? Because I got to report this to my district manager or my direct manager who's managing the re like it is absolute experience the entire way up to the top. When you look at sales organizations, the the the chief revenue officer was a sales rep or a sales engineer at one point in their life. Have to be. They have to be, and they have to have that level of expertise. Otherwise, you are going to have no sales. Like it's it's drive from the top to the bottom, and it is a must-have of that organization. So a good thing, a good outcome of having experience is you can easily sniff out good workers versus bad ones, right? Yeah, especially in like quota-driven organizations. Yep, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:56

I'm trying to think of a I think another outcome from this is it depends a lot on how big your company is. Like I think if your company's smaller, you're gonna have managers that have to be able to do the work if somebody else is gone. Like if you're a team of two, it's like, okay, this person's gone, like I gotta do it. And so there's less redundancy and there's less individual career growth. It's just like, hey, we gotta do whatever we gotta do to keep our company alive. But in a big company, and if you're going into a megacorp, you should be thinking about what does that career path look like? And so when you're interviewing and trying to find a team that you can succeed on and you're meeting with the manager, like you've got to ask probing questions around what this team's gonna be like, what they're gonna be like as a manager. And I think it's important to ask certain questions, like as we were talking about this, a few came to mind around, hey, tell me a little bit about your involvement with the team, like the projects you work on, how hands-on are you? And just try to ask those questions of just understanding are they super hands-on in the work and are they actually like diving in when there's a problem, or are they saying, hey, listen, I'm a manager at the end of the day. I'm gonna support you because I'm hiring you, because you're going to be the expert in this. And so I want you to come in, I want you to share your expertise, and I want you to be able to do this job, and I'm here to support you if you get stuck. And like that's the answer you're looking for to know this is gonna be a good place for me to be. If they're like, yeah, we're all in it together, I'm gonna dive in if you get stuck and be able to do it with you. It's like that could potentially be a red flag because then it's like they're always gonna be in your crap and not give you any autonomy.

SPEAKER_00: 45:36

Right. I mean, this a manager needs to be able to answer your question because if they don't, you immediately lose confidence in their ability to manage you, right? Like it this is like the one time I managed a Chuck E. Cheese for a while, and you know, the manager told me, like, well, when you're here at night, you have to turn off the lights to save power. But the animatronics do come to life and wander, and that's fine. That's okay. They're allowed to wander. Just, you know, if they come near the security office, make sure you turn the lights on because they don't like that, and then they'll go away. I'm like, well, why do I need to turn the lights on when they come near the security office? And it's like, oh, because they will eat you. And I'm like, well, why would they eat me? And he's like, oh, because actually, if you look into their history, um, they're possessed by the spirit of a man who ate like 14 children. And I thought that was really weird that it was so specific and and deep in the lore. But let me tell you, it saved my life. I flipped those lights so quick when I saw them peek their heads to the door. And uh, you know, he saved my life. If I didn't ask those questions, I'd be dead today.

SPEAKER_02: 46:31

I think your tenure is pretty short, like five nights, right? I think, yeah, and it was it was just about a week.

SPEAKER_01: 46:42

Remember that. Chuck e cheese, great place to be. Oh, well, those were great outcomes. It was fun.

SPEAKER_00: 46:53

Did you believe it at least for like a second?

SPEAKER_02: 46:55

Well, yeah. I mean, at first I was like, okay, I didn't know about managing a woodworking place. Now I don't know about the chuck. And then you said you said what you said, and like I I just knew immediately this was going somewhere.

SPEAKER_01: 47:07

I don't know what you said, but in my head, it's your fault.

SPEAKER_02: 47:10

I blame you. Yeah, I'm sorry. That's what happens. But no, I think those are I think those are good takeaways. I appreciate you playing my hypothetical because I was thinking about that earlier today. Yeah, it's just fun, it's interesting to kind of go through it. And I think you're gonna see a mix of that in throughout your career of you're gonna see like long career paths where you're gonna have just functional HR managers and you're gonna see some that are like direct hands-on. But if you're a smaller company, likely they're jumping in with you and you guys are doing whatever it takes to get the job done. So just set the right expectations, act ask the right questions, depending where you're going into, to know you're getting into a place that's going to be productive, whatever your goals are.

unknown: 47:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:46

And uh, you know, it's it's funny because I totally forgot I had an HR manager. So thank you for reminding me of that period in my life. I it's perfect for the time.

SPEAKER_03: 47:56

You look back on it.

SPEAKER_00: 47:57

You look back on it so fondly. So I just wanted to bring it up so you could relive that. Well, it you know, if anything, it's made me grateful that in the last decade, every manager I've had has been an expert at the role that I was in and was able to mentor me in some way, shape, or form. Yeah. Yeah. Super thankful for that. Uh and uh yeah, I mean, I just it's a testament to good managers should be able to do the job, especially when it is a very, you know, knowledge-based work. 100%. Yeah, I think we did it. Yeah, another one in the bag. Hey, you know, if if you, the listener, are feeling like you need a little more management in your life, and maybe you don't know if you have a good manager, you want to figure out, hey, what should I look for when I'm interviewing for a manager? Sound like you know, Bruce had an interesting story where his manager was telling him the truth before he even worked there. You have those questions. There's a place you can go to get answers. We might not be your boss, but we would love to hear your stories and offer some insights. Where do you go to do that, Clark? There's this awesome resource.

SPEAKER_02: 48:57

It's completely free. Bunch of great people. And also, you know, it's crazy too. You can learn the tips and tricks to know if pictures are AI or not, which is the most recent challenge we're doing. It's in our Discord, it's with a bunch of great people in there. Community is always growing. We always want to welcome new people who are looking for tips and tricks. Uh, but yeah, it's popping off of the few different games that we have. And yeah, it's completely free to join. So you just scroll down your in your your notes, in your your show notes, you hit the little Discord button and you just one click away. One click away. You can be completely anonymous. You can just lurk. That's totally okay.

SPEAKER_00: 49:31

A lot of people do it. Get in there. And if you want to support the show, you can do that by buying us a coffee. There's a buy us a coffee link in that link tree as well. You can also buy some swag, which we desperately need to update. And uh yeah, you know, the the most important thing you can do, and we we do mean this from the bottom of our heart, is to share this with others, right? This is a a word of mouth marketed show, and we do get quite a few listens, but not as many as we'd like. So if you could share this with your coworkers, your friends, your family, your neighbors, anyone who might get benefit from it, we would be thankful for you. And uh, we'd love you for it. So thanks for listening, and please share it broadly. Is there anything else we we need to cover today, Clark? No, but that's it. Okay, all right. Well, thank you, Clark, for bringing a banger of a topic per usual. It's a good one. I wasn't ready for this. Thank you. Always well, you're the best. We love you. Um, we are gonna have to go through a 360 review of you next week, though, because it's that time of the year, and I don't really know what you do, but I know that you're not getting paid because we're giving that money to someone up above you. So uh just just giving you a little sneak peek of uh your your performance review. So sorry about that, but uh keep your chin up maybe next year. Uh but until then, I'm Bruce. And I'm Clark. And you're on mute. We will see you next week.