Cold Open And Name Chaos

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Welcome back to Corporate Strategy podcast that comes in an email. I'm Razor Ramon.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

I just held my breath for so long. Why did you take so long to do that? I'm like, I can do it. I can hold my breath.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

It was like, it was like a good like 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Okay, okay. Firstly, you're supposed to say I'm big hoss. So you ruined it. You ruined it. I almost died. I almost just I was gassing it. You can hold your breath. I just said don't make a sound. Don't breathe. I mean, like, don't breathe, obviously, don't breathe, but like, don't make sounds of what I was going for.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

You know, you think like holding your breath isn't that hard, like as you think about it. But if you don't do it ever, which I never do it, and then you try to do it for a long period of time, you suck at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Sometimes I'll just hold my breath. Sometimes I'll just hold it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Oh, oh, I'm Big Hoss. Hey. Thank you. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me, Razor Ramon.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

I was waiting. I was waiting for it. Hey, um Big Hoss, vibe check.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

We're gonna confuse everybody. We've only ever revealed our names like three episodes. And now we're renaming ourselves Razor Ramon and Big Hoss.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Welcome to the Corporate Strategy Show. We need we need like leather jackets. You know, maybe some uh different types of haircuts. You know, maybe we like buzz the sides a little bit. We could get we could get pretty pretty, you know, biker gang with it if we wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

I I like the idea of you and me getting matching haircuts. Maybe we grow the same facial hair pattern, uh a handlebar with a little devil's touch in the middle, you know? Just a little alternatively, we just do just just the chin and the neck. So it's straight up hair, neck to chin. That's it. Nothing else.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

And not like the whole neck, like just a strip.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Like it's almost a diamond. It's a diamond of neck-chin hair. I think that's the look for the corporate strategist moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

That's disgusting. I never want to think about that again. Well, I'll be honest, you grow a way better mustache than I do, so I don't know if I can keep up.

Why Pokemon Pokopia Feels Magical

SPEAKER_02 2:38

I mean, I you know, I think it's I don't know if I grow it better that I just know you and I have like the same sort of facial hair structure pattern. I think you could probably grow it the same as me. It's just a matter of like the trimming, the the trimming, and then also the mustache will always look more impressive the less hair you have around it. This is true. This is very true. A scene. I like that. A dark art scene growers clan. Well, I always go first. Why don't you go first for vibe check for once? Vibration check. How am I doing? Uh, you know, uh I'm gonna take I'm gonna yield my vibe check time to instead uh talk about the most magical thing that has been happening in my life. Nintendo has released this game called Pokemon Pokopia. And uh you've probably never heard of it. Yeah. Well, let you're about to. I I'm yielding my vibe check to talk about this game. This game is magical. Like, let me tell you, if you have access to a Nintendo device, you need to go buy Pokemon Pokopia right away. And I will start by saying I am not a Pokemon person. Um I've I grew up with the blue cartridge for the Game Boy, and I played Silver for the Game Boy, and I played Pokemon Snap. And that was it. Uh that oh good, we got the reactions going, people can finally see them. I really didn't engage with the franchise much. I did Pokemon Go, obviously, when that was a whole craze. I tried some of the ones on the DS and the 3DS, but like I never got far. Like, I could not tell you what they were called. I couldn't tell you with a Pokemon in them. Like, I really fell off the franchise hard. But this game has been in my periphery for a while. Huge fan of management sim building games and also Viva Pinata. Uh completely just overlooked, underrated game for the Xbox, where you are building environments for these pinatas to show up, uh, only so that you can feed those pinatas to bigger pinatas so you can get the best pinatas in your place and you get all the candy when you're choked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that. Okay. Pokemon Pokemon is the Minecraft education of Viva Pinata with Pokemon. But Michael, let me tell you something. This game reaches into your soul and gives a massage. Everything you know, everything you know about Pokemon is in here, and like it is it is unlocking childhood memories for me that I'm like, damn girl, you didn't have to go that hard with your Pokemon. Like, I was not ready to have an emotional experience uh alongside just the most addictive game I've played in, I don't know, a decade. Like, I I literally I get off work and then I go play Pokemon Pocopia until it's midnight, and then I dream about it, and then I wake up the next day and I go to work and then I play Pokemon Pocopia again. So the quick the quick and dirty of what this is, you are you are a ditto. Uh you play as a ditto that looks like the trainer that used to own the ditto, so you get to customize it, but it's got the little ditto face. And the whole thing, like you start off, you're the only Pokemon on the planet. And you you meet this weird tangla thing with a disc on his head, and he looks like a stand user, and he's all like, hey, let's rebuild stuff. So you start to build these habitats and environments to court Pokemon to come back. So you might put like a bunch of bushes together, and a little Bulbasaur pops out, and he's like, Oh blah blah. Um, and then Bulbasaur is gonna help you plant leaves. And when you plant leaves, then a Charmander might show up, and Charmander can light things on fire. And Squirtle shows up, and with Squirtle, he teaches you how to vomit water everywhere so you can grow things, and every single thing you do unlocks something more for you to do. Um, and what starts as just a I'm building these tiny little things turns into I'm building entire cities for my Pokemon to live and thrive and survive in. And there is a backstory to this game that is a gut punch. It's one of the most depressing things I think I've ever read in a children's game, and it it breaks me to my core. I love this. I am so surprised, just top to bottom, by everything this game accomplishes. Like, I I could literally talk about this game for hours. That's how deep and good it is. The last thing I'll say the music is all the music from the Game Boy game, but it's like slowed down to the point that it's just this soft piano ambience that just plays in the background as you're building your little environments for your Pokemon to come back. But as you grow your city, it becomes more and more like full and instrumental. Oh my god, like it Michael, Michael, I'm doing great. I'm doing great because I have Pokemon Pokopia in my life. That's my vibe check.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

I I have so many thoughts. One, you are meant to be in marketing because you just marketed the hell out of Pocopia in the world. A game that does not need it. Uh it does not need it. I bet people listening. Like, I I've I've never seen it, but now you're convincing me, like, I want to play it. Two, how good is it when you work in the corporate world to like have something that you look forward to and crave so that way when you're done with work, you can just go do that thing. Dude, like, isn't it the best feeling to like look forward to that? Like, I can't wait to be done so I can go play.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Yeah, it is like I shut the lid, I run downstairs, I help my wife take care of the dogs, and I'm like, I'm playing Pokemon. It's like I'm seven again. It's wild.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yeah, when I was really little, I played the gold version of Pokemon so much that I killed the internal battery. It was a brand new game. Yeah, I killed the internal battery, and then I looked it up like later in life, I don't remember how long, 15 years ago. And it was like, yeah, it's usually around 132 hours, is when you kill the internal battery. And I'm like, I played that game for that long, but I love Pokemon as a kid. Like the game was just so awesome. I actually credit my ability, my reading skills, my reading level when that uh when I was that age to Pokemon. Because all you were doing was reading the little props, trying to figure out what you're doing next. Like it was such a cornerstone of my childhood. I love that. I might have to give it a shot. You you absolutely must.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

And it just came out. I demand it. Just came out. Um, I am an addict. I I think I'm near the end because I've played it pretty much nonstop every night for the last five, no, seven nights. Uh so I also had two weekend days where I just played it the entire weekend. But I think I'm close to the end. But the great thing is, is I'm not done. Oh, I've got plans. I've got a few more to do. Like, there are things in this game, Michael, that you're gonna see them and you're gonna be like, oh my gosh, it's that thing. And now you're gonna be like, I have to rebuild that thing because that is a core part of my childhood emotional state. So I will now I have a project which is go build this thing that is meaningful for my childhood. Uh, if you played Gold and Silver, you are gonna be like freaking out. That's all I'll say. You'll just freak out. Okay. All right, you sold me. I gotta do it, I gotta go do it. You gotta go play.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

You gotta play. And then I gotta give you my review.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

It ain't, you know, it's it's just relaxing. It's a relaxing game. Like, what better than after work to go and build something that everyone appreciates, everyone finds meaning in it. It's beautiful. You're like, hey, I accomplished something today in Pokemon. In real life, no, sorry, you don't get those opportunities in corporate, but in Pokemon, boy howdy, did I do some good. So Pikachu is like, I love you, Anthony. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Last week we talked about CAC culture autonomy challenge compensation. We never that always comes to are you like, are you living to work? Are you working to live? Is it a combo of both? We never even factored. Are you working to play Pokemon? Yeah, I mean that's a whole different realm. We never even thought about.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

If I was Ditto in real life and that was my actual job, my CAC would be just perfect 100%.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Everything is exactly where I need it. And who cares about compensation?

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Well, no, they compensate me well. They're like, hey, if you pick up 10 sticks, I'll give you 100 coins. I'm like, bet. I'm gonna go pick up a hundred sticks because I need that to go build a log cabin. So give him a hundred coins, and here is your building. I hope you enjoy it. I am satisfied.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yeah. Okay, you gotta answer one question for me because I I said this on this podcast. I can't do games that require me to grind anymore. I don't like the grind. I don't like having to spend hours doing pointless, meaningless stuff to get up another level just to go do the thing. Is this a grind or no? It is not a grind.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

I would actually say it's the opposite of a grind. The game is so good at giving you something new every time you do something that it's like, how did they do this without like if I had to make one complaint, it's that it uses a real-time clock, like Gold and Silver did. Oh, yeah. You you can build environments for certain Pokemons that they you need to be during the daytime, and I'm playing mostly at night. So it's like I'm having to like sneak my switch on during the day and like go visit this environment and build it. Like, hey, come here, join me. Okay, turn it off. All right, I'm back.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, like that's lunch break.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

You gotta go, you gotta go catch some Pokemon, right? But I mean, the nighttime, I got all the nighttime Pokemons. I've got them all. Yeah, I caught them all. That's hilarious. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Good for you, man. I'm excited. I'm I'm excited for you. I'm just happy that you're having a good time.

New Role Whiplash And No Feedback

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Oh, I'm having a great nothing better. I'm feeling I'm feeling fly. How are you doing? Vibe check. Vibe check.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

How am I doing? This we've got a good start. It just it just kind of flew by. Like, I'm doing so much. There's so many things happening.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

And like, I I just I don't know how to feel about it. It's just it's so different from what I and I haven't, I'm I'm not gonna delve into what exactly I'm up to, but I will. I will soon enough because everyone knows I'm no longer a universal. It's it's so different than what I was doing that it's almost like days are weird because you're doing all these things you're not used to doing, and you like end the day and you're like, I don't know if I did well today or if I didn't do well today, but you're tired. You're like, my brain is tired because like I had to learn all these new things and do this new stuff, and it's just it's different, man. It's different. I'm not acclimated to it.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

I feel you, I feel it's kind of fun. I mean, that feeling is the feeling you get in marketing all the time. Yeah, you just you don't know if you did a good job because there's no way to know.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Right. There's no like validation, there's no feedback loop of yeah, am I doing the right thing? It's it's like in product management, you know. I mean, you build a product, you put it out there, people use it, you get the data back, and you're like, am I progressing towards my end goal and my KPIs or am I not? Like it's it's still like it's still not black and white of okay, if you're aiming for 20% and you got 10%, is that good? Is that bad? But either way, you're getting the validation that like it's being used. You know what I mean? Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah, we don't get bad marketing until like you know, long after you finish the thing and you're working on the next thing, and then you find, oh, that thing you get sucked. Um, but it's never real time, which I think you're you're more used to the real-time customer-based feedback where I'm I'm living the long tail feedback cycle. It's it's a weird state. I think it affects it affects me a lot. Like what you're describing, that brain funk you're in, that's how I am a lot of time. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, it's just it's a strange feeling. And it's like you know you did something, so you're like, well, that's good. Yeah, but you don't see an immediate result. And it's just it's yeah, it's a strange feeling. I know that feeling well. So yeah, but but it hasn't been bad. I mean, I had a lot of good conversations this week with a lot of interesting people, and like that's always fun. Like, I I'm always just genuinely curious, so I'd love to meet people and talk to people and you know see what makes them tick and what they're interested in. And so that's been fun. I've been enjoying that, meeting a lot of new people. That's awesome. I love that. So it's been good, man.

unknown 15:20

Good.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, good. I guess it's been good. I I guess that's what I have to say in retrospect.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Good.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Friday came by like this.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I'm glad we talked to it. I'm glad you're feeling better.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

You started that so like well, it's kind of like like when you've been doing something for so long, and then you step into doing something different, it's just such a weird feeling because you're like, okay, well, how do I how do I get fulfillment now? You know, what are those things that I should be doing when you you're not doing the exact same thing you were doing before? Yeah, it's just such like uh it's a little bit of like an identity crisis because like I don't miss the work that I was doing every day. I miss the team that I had and the people I worked around. And the new stuff is exciting and new, but yeah, it's that weird feeling of, are you doing the right things? And that's just that's new. That's new to me. I haven't really ever had to deal with that.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Do you want me to just uh you know tell you you're doing well? Would that help you?

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah, yeah, please. I need some uh some verbal uh, you know, what's the right word? Uh verbal validation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll hear.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Uh Michael, I was uh I was taking a look at your reports today, and I saw some of the work that you were doing. I just want to tell you, you're on the right path, bud. You're really crushing it.

TikTok Prompts For Workplace Reactions

SPEAKER_01 16:28

That's what I needed. Thank you. I've been looking for that. I've been waiting for someone to tell me that it's going really, really well. Great. Uh pizza's on the way. Oh man, I can't wait. Do I get a paycheck too? No. But there will be pizza. Everyone loves pizza. So it's funny you say this because I have something fun we're gonna do today, and you kind of just went right into it. No way. Without even knowing. You just stepped right right into the hornet's nest and you had no idea. How is that possible? What did I what did I do? Was it the P word? It was not the P word. So I I got into this rabbit hole. You know, we used to go this this week, well, prior episodes, we used to go to what we liked to lovingly and affectionately call the the watering well, the watering hole, of blind or Reddit for corporate things happening on in the world, and then we'd bring them to the show and we would talk about like either how ridiculous they are or what we would do differently. I found myself on TikTok. No, why would you do that? Not on the app. Um I was looking up something and I found the desktop version, which they just let you use for free. And I just started like going, I didn't sign up, no, none of my information was out there, but I just started like hitting random like corporate situation TikToks. One, they were pretty funny. I really enjoyed it. I spent a good like 20 minutes laughing at different situations and what people were doing. But I thought what might be fun for today's episode, because it is a Friday, fun Friday. I want to get some genuine Anthony reactions to some things that are said in the workplace in certain contexts.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Why has it got to be a genuine Anthony reaction? Are you saying your reaction's not good enough? Is that what you're saying? I'm saying about my reaction that's funny. Am I a clown to you?

SPEAKER_01 18:18

See, I am happy to give my feedback after, but these are a surprise to you, they're not a surprise to me. So I've had time to think about them. You, on the other hand, have not, which makes this much more interesting. So I got on the fly react. Great. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

This is a reaction video now for YouTube. Fantastic. Thanks, Michael. We made it, what, four episodes live before we had to give in to cheap tactics. Oh, by the way, while we're on while in the cheap tactics, please hit that bell. Uh, thought I'd never have to say this with uh any honesty. But if you if you are listening, if you're watching, if you subscribe to our YouTube channel, apparently you gotta hit the bell. Otherwise, you'll never know when we go live or when we release new content. So thanks, YouTube. Subscription means nothing. Bells are the thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

So yeah. I've had quite a few people like tell me they they can't, they're like, I'm Googling it or I'm YouTubing it, but I can't I can't find it. And I think it's just because we don't have enough content out yet. I think eventually that'll improve. But I don't know, it's still weird.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

So if you're gonna hit the bell, please leave a comment. Uh, you know, it doesn't have to be anything. You'd be like, hey, I like your fiddle fern. Like, literally just leave a comment on every video. Um, that doesn't have like like I said, just stupid. Just it just helps. It just helps. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

You'll be doing us a solid. All right, you ready? You ready to react? I'm ready. And then we can put like clickbait in the title, like, I quit my job because my manager said this. That's what's coming next.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Good, great, fantastic.

Fast-Paced Environment Red Flags

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Okay, I'm gonna paint a picture for you. Okay, paint. I am going to I'm going to say some specific words, and I want to get your thoughts on what you think about when I say those words. Okay. What comes to mind? All right, you ready? Ready. All right, I've got a couple that are in this context, so it'll be good for you. Okay. You're going into an interview, and as we're talking about the job, they say, the interviewer says to you, the interviewee, this is a fast-paced environment. What comes to mind for you? What are you what are you thinking when they say those words?

SPEAKER_02 20:21

When they say fast-paced environment, I assume it means I'm working more than eight hours a day. Yep. It means I'm working more than eight hours a day. It means they're understaffed. I gotta quit doing the thumbs up because it's just gonna react over time. They're understaffed, they're gonna make me work longer hours, they're probably gonna pay me less, but the experience I'm gonna get is going to be just the best. It's gonna be golden. I'm gonna be able to put this place on my resume and I'll get hired anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Well, Anthony, I'm so happy you talked about the experience you would gain because also this job gives you the ability to explore many different projects and different things to work on.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Yeah, they're incredibly understaffed. Incredibly understaffed. Uh they have no idea how to actually hire, project manage, or plan. They're looking for someone who's willing to basically give their soul to fill in all of the gaps at this place that uh they don't know how to fill themselves.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

I'm right there with you. Like those are those are red, usually red flags. The redest of flags. Or maybe like if you're into that and you're like, this is a startup, I'm passionate about what they're doing as a company. I just want to work my tail off no matter what it takes. If that's your thing, if you're young and you have no nothing else but work and that's all you want to do, like sure, this might be a good environment for you. But same for me. I'm like red flag central of like something ain't right. Either you guys are working way more than 40 hours a week because you don't really have good direction, or you're understaffed, like critically. Those were the things that come to mind for me. I hear those words.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Absolutely agree. It's a danger zone, if I had to sum it up into two words.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yep. Yeah. And my favorite is like when they're talking about the responsibilities of the job. You know, they might be like, Yeah, you're responsible for putting together our marketing campaigns and for monitoring the sentiment of our customers and other duties as required. Other duties as required.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Biggest red flag on a job application uh template you could ever find. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

I would love to just like poke into that and be like, so like what? Like what's what are the these other duties? And I think that's honestly what you should probably ask immediately after that is being like, oh, really? Like what other duties? Because they're probably gonna say things like, you're gonna be responsible for onboarding and training members of our team. You're gonna be responsible for updating documentation and just start unloading the barrel of other things you have to do. Why do you keep describing my current job?

SPEAKER_02 22:58

You are at a startup. That's true. That's true. It's very true.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

And I mean This probably was at the bottom of your job description.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Do you think there was when I when I joined, I was employee number four. There weren't no job description. Uh it was my friend description. Come work here, please. I need you to do something.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

That's what we need.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

That is really it. And they're like, and and maybe a little bit of sales engineering, a little bit of enablement, and a little bit of janitorial services. And I'm like, hey, I can scrub a toilet, so let's go. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah, it's it is interesting. I've actually had some jobs that like have that at the bottom of the of the job description itself. And it feels, I don't know if this is true. Is this like an HR catch-all to like get out of any HRE issues if someone complains about their job responsibilities? It's gotta be, right? Because I feel like it's at a ton of the bottoms. And if someone comes back and they say, Well, this isn't my job, I'm suing the company because they laid me off for not doing that thing, it's like, nope, we've got that nice little asterisk sitting at the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

The I I do think it is there for that reason, but I also genuinely think it's there because they really need the kind of person that can say, I can do anything. They they they need you and I. Uh, because when I see that, like, yeah, I I do 100% believe it means long hours, it means a lot of work, it means they're not properly staffed. But part of that excites me because that means that I can really come in and and do my thing. And my thing's pretty good, so I'm happy to do it. Yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Honestly, that's a positive way to look at it. It's like, it's almost like in those situations you have more autonomy to choose what you do and bring value where you can. That's actually a really positive way to look at it. It's like this could be, if you're looking to kind of make it your own, a good opportunity for you. Sometimes I'm a really positive person, you know? Like sometimes. This Pokemon has changed you. You're a different person. I like this.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

I like this positivity. Let's just end this one early. You come over and we'll play together. Come on, let's just play Pokemon and we'll stream it for our subs. Oh, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

That's a really good idea.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

We could totally do that.

Replacing Multiple Roles With One

SPEAKER_01 25:16

We should totally do that. All right, I got another one for you. All right, let's go. So we're trying to get someone to take this role because we lost a few people on the team, so we're hiring one person to replace them. Oh no.

unknown 25:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

The previous one. It was so good.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

The previous one, like, there's a silver lining if you're if you're like us. This one is a run the hell away. Uh, I mean, maybe this is probably sadly, this is probably more recurrent now because of AI. And the expectation, like, right below that, is you need to be able to uh either manage, monitor, review uh an AI agentic something or other because we're replacing them, and we need someone who can basically kind of manage what they used to do, now being done by a robot. That's a big red flag. And I mean, maybe, maybe it was actually a big red flag, and now I think it's just the the norm, sadly. Right. I think it's gonna be the expectation a lot moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah, yeah, I I don't disagree with you, but I uh I do think it is a massive red flag because it's telling you a few things. Like when you hear that, okay, okay, first of all, why are the people leaving? Like, that's my first follow-up question. Like, okay, so why did those people leave? Like, I want to know, as someone who might work here. The second question is wait, you lost multiple people and you're hiring one position? Well, okay. Did they lose them?

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Did did they lose them? Because you know, I've lost the TV remote. Uh I find it.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Did they actually lose the people? Or are you interfering for like the mafia? Right. Yeah, the people left. We don't know where they went.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Just one day, our entire writing team was gone. Where'd they go?

SPEAKER_01 27:09

I'm so stupid. Nobody really liked them. Nobody really liked them anyway, but you know, they're gone.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

They didn't really, you know, all they did was just use AI generated content anyway. No, they're gone. Where'd they go?

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah, so obviously we need to replace them because it's been enough time where, you know, we need them or somebody to do that job.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

I mean, I just as a just as a quick aside on this one, I hate one of my biggest like corporate hates is when someone says, oh, they left the company. Oh, we lost them. Oh, they took a leave. Like, just be real. Let's be real. Because all the all the lack of information does is actually make people nervous. Like, it really does make people nervous, or you eat you reach my level of jadedness where you're just like, they got fired. Like, they didn't get fired. Well, nah, they got fired. Come on now, be real. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

If you're not gonna fired it and they never said goodbye, their profile was just deactivated.

unknown 28:10

Fine.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

That's that's the thing, is like I'm to the point now, whenever I hear that kind of language, I just assume they were fired. And I've been told, like, oh no, no, they weren't fired. They, you know, they just took time for themselves. Like, but they were really fired though, weren't they? Like, and I mean, that's what happens though, is when you use this kind of language, like we lost them. Um, and and many times you're like, well, I kind of know what they did to get lost. So yeah, that kind of makes sense that they would get lost in that way. I I really wish we could get away from that and be just more honest and say, hey, you know, Joseph left the company to go to a competitor and we had to terminate their contract because that's the way it works. Or we decided to let go of Joseph. They did not do uh what was uh you know explained to them explicitly in their contract. They were disgust around this, they went through a pip, they chose not to improve the situation, therefore we let them go. One, I think that would really help people on a motivational side of things. Be like, hey, I'm doing better than Joseph. At least I'm, you know, I'm not worried about myself, or like, oh, they got rid of Joseph for that. Maybe I need to step up my game, right? Like, yeah, I think the honesty can actually bring a little bit of encouragement or motivation. And if it's a layoff, like, hey, budgetary reasons, we cut 25%. Uh, it was pretty much a random picking. Uh, we kind of looked at salaries and what could fit. These people are gone because of that reason. Hey, right, I survived, that's all that matters, right? Like, but knowing this is so much better than yes, we lost them to the fire, they're gone. We have their ashes now to spread amongst the desk furniture.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

I I like that too because it's nice to know that a company's willing, at least for me, willing to fire people who are not performing. Absolutely. Yes, because we and like that sounds harsh, like if you haven't been in the corporate world for a while, but the longer you're in the corporate world, you're going to realize not everybody performs. And usually you're just dragging along the dead weight because the company is not willing to hold people accountable to do their jobs, and so they just shuffle them around. And that happens at big companies all the time. And so, do you really want to be at a company that it's like they're not letting people do their jobs or they're not making people do their jobs and holding them accountable? So that means you're gonna have to do more work to help that person. Like, that's not fair to you.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

That's not a great place to be, and and you know, thinking about the human side of this conversation, right? Like the person who got fired, it's not great for them. You know, yes, we want to be respectful of this person, this individual, they have been, you know, removed from the company, but they're no longer here, right? Like at the end of the day, they're gone, I'm not. So who's more important to protect at this point? Because if it doesn't make sense, and I'm just thinking, am I next? I don't know what Joseph did. Right. Like, why are they gone? Did they get fired? And it's like, oh no, actually, Joseph just you know had a family emergency, they're moving back to Switzerland. That's a thing. Like, right.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

That's that's the rumor mill starts. Right, right. Yeah, the rumor mill starts and everybody starts speculating, and that's way, way worse. I 100% agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah, I I would love more transparency in that regard, but uh yeah, it's funny, like that's what I glommed on to in that little clip. And sadly, I think that's gonna be the norm moving forward is we lost a bunch of people, we're filling you in to take this on just because of AI. That's that's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Oh, you just use this AI tool. Yeah, we don't need this person anymore. Like, we're just gonna use AI tools. It's like, have you used AI to do what we do? Like, no. That's really interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting angle because to your point, I think it's already happening. Like, I think it's happening all around us because the expectation of AI is so high when the reality is like very, very mid, very mid right now. There's some really good things AI can help with, but it's not without human in the loop.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah.

Restructuring Messages And Reorg Reality

SPEAKER_01 32:16

All right, HR, HR conversation with you, Anthony. Oh, you get a note from HR or your manager that says, we're restructuring. That's it. That's it. This says, hey, we're restructuring.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

We need to have a conversation. Why is HR sending me this note? Is my initial reaction is like, oh no. Is my is my boss fired? Like, what happened here? Um, I mean, this one is panic. This is panic in the back of my mind because it's HR. That's the thing that worries me here. Is usually when there's a restructuring, and I I actually like restructurings. I think restructurings are generally the result of management or some kind of external firm looking in and saying, you could be more optimal if you operate in this way. And usually they go through a lot of thinking and and building and experimenting before they just pull the plug and say, Hey, we're doing it this way now. Here's your new team. But if it's coming from HR, I mean that that all bets are off, right? Like, what the hell does that mean, in all honesty? HR is not qualified to tell me about the restructuring of my team, let alone the organization, let alone even their own organization. So big red flags there.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah. It's you actually have a different view than I do on the outside firms looking in and helping your teams become more optimal. Well, I guess it depends, like what kind of business and an industry you're in, but like I've I've had a lot of outside firms come and do that, and like they'll the the leaders will want to change, and then once they actually get into the details, like, oh wait, this isn't gonna work for reason X, Y, or Z. And the reality is they didn't really understand what everybody was doing and how the organization actually worked from the bottom up. Maybe this is just at really big orgs, but like that's that's the gap that I always see is like, hey, we're making this big change, you know, this outside firm that came and consulted with us, and they think we need to readjust to be more optimal. And then you like really start getting it forced on you as someone who's actually doing the work, and you realize, okay, this is really stupid. Like it's just gonna crash and burn at this point.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

I mean, you and I went through a big restructuring when Big Corp went from waterfall to agile, and that was all externally led. And I think it worked really well for most people. I think there were some Klingons who stayed true to the old ways and they did not make things better for themselves or others around them. But that was an external re-org that I think turned out really well. I mean, yeah, uh that company doesn't exist anymore, and the products failed terribly, but it was better than what it was. Like, I do genuinely believe what we built under Agile was still better than the old way, and we were producing product that benefited from that process.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah, you know, I think in that sense we were adopting a new way of working, but we had some autonomy for how the teams were gonna be. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I think that's the difference, is I've been a part of these, you know, the big consulting firms coming in and like restructuring teams where it's being basically you know demanded that teams go in this way and people with this skill set go to this team. When you don't give the autonomy to the people working to say, hey, we're restructuring, these are your core pillars. You guys are going to be working on these products. Figure out how you want to work. Like that's what happened at the company we were at. It's like we got to have the autonomy to say, hey, I like working with these people, or you could leave the team and join a different team if you didn't like working with those people. And that I think worked really, really well. I think the ones that I've seen have been drastically different. Really?

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Yeah, I mean, I I left the team I was on and joined another team. It's true three times. And you know what I learned? Right, right, right. What's that? I hate people.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yep. I mean, eventually everyone gets to that realization.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah, yeah. It's just, you know, I think it's a lot of people. Right. Yeah. Right. But I mean, it's it's a good point you raise. Um, I've not been on the negative. I mean, like, when even when they restructured us, it meant you and I weren't working together anymore. Right. Um, and it was because, like, hey, you're talented, you're going on project A, you're talented, you're going on project B. We need you in these respective places. So, like, it kind of took away our that was the end of the golden years for us, but it it was the beginning of our career growth development phase. Right. And 100% paid more money. So, yeah, we the fun times, goodbye, the paid times, hello.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Uh, you know, yeah, those things never happened. We would have been laid off so fast. So fast.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

We would have if we were on our golden years team, we would have been done. It would have canned us in a month.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

But you know what? We you and I could have gone and joined a weapons contractor and developed satellites that nuke people from space, and I think we would have had a pretty good time. You know, I I think we would have enjoyed it. You know, the the thought in the back of our mind that, you know, hey, we're building things that indiscriminately kill people. I think that would have been fun for us.

The Weird Things Coworkers Admit

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Going way, way back to the beginning when you mentioned your release is going and playing Pokemon after work. You just reminded me of something our coworker told us a long, long time. He's like, you know what, Anthony and Michael? There's nothing better than after a hard day's work, you get to go home, pull up the Xbox, throw in Grand Theft Auto, and just mow people down. I remember this, and I remember thinking this was said to us in a workplace.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

I I'm a huge, I'm a huge gamer. I mean, if you just look. If you're if you're on the audio podcast, tune in, look at one of the physical ones and see my background. It's a taste of gonna have to go to YouTube and you would immediately understand. There's been so much research proving that video games have zero correlation with actual physical violence. And those that commit violence and are often blamed for video games were already violent people or needed mental help or therapy. But when that individual said that, I was like, is the data wrong? Am I should I be scared right now?

SPEAKER_01 38:42

It's just the three of you, and you're sitting there like, like, how do you respond to that? Just be like, Yeah, video games are fun.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yeah, I mean, and I love Grand Theft Auto, but at the same time, like I am, I go out of my way to never strike an innocent in those games. Yeah, sometimes there's collateral damage when you when you bust at the rocket launcher, it's unavoidable.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

When you get five stars and you need to blow up the police.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

When the tanks are coming for you, what can you do? But like, I never mow down people. I'm like, no, they're these are not my enemy. My enemy is capitalism, and I need to rob it of its glory and and rise to riches by doing so. Uh, yeah, that that concerned me just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yeah. Just a little bit. That was a giant red flag.

unknown 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Yeah.

Covering Leave Without Extra Headcount

SPEAKER_01 39:26

All right. I got one more for you. You ready? Hit me. All right. Hey, uh, Anthony. Uh, Jordan's going on leave uh for the next six months, and we're gonna need to spread their responsibilities across our team. Uh you know, make sure that we're all working together, you know, and getting the work done.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

I like that you're using our and all and we because you are a part of this responsibility shared matrix, correct? Boss? Yeah. No, no, actually, I have other responsibilities. So you're gonna. Oh, so your responsibility isn't changing. It's me and my team that get to take the brunt of this loss. Uh, will they be recouping the headcount? Will we be able to get a contracted, a subcontracted worker to fill in while they're gone?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

No. Sorry, budget cuts. We're gonna just need to take on the load. And until they're back, we're gonna need to take those responsibilities among ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Given that we're all operating maybe even 120% over our sprint team capacity, uh, I would potentially uh recommend you go up to management and say we don't have the ability to carry on without this individual, and another team needs to pick up their Slack, one that has more velocity available to them.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

I love these responses. And actually, the TikTok rabbit hole I went down like had some pretty good responses to these of like my workload is currently at max. So unless you can take other responsibilities, yeah, I'm overcapacity, unless you can take some responsibilities off of my plate, I'm not gonna be able to take any more on. And like that's the right answer. And yeah, if as a team you're asked to do it, it's like, okay, you know, that all sounds great, but you know, I'm I'm only working 40 hours a week. Are we gonna be compensated for overtime if we need to work extra? Like you can ask the compensation game, yeah, or you can do what you did and say, hey, our team is already, you know, over capacity. Losing somebody means we're gonna be even further over capacity. Like we're gonna have to have another team take this on, or you can start doing trade-offs and being like, I just don't think we're gonna be able to get all of our work done by the release date. We're gonna have to push it back if this is the case, unless we can get some temporary help. It's all just trade-offs that are valid reasons.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Exactly it. Yeah, no, and I think um being able to negotiate in that way. Again, we've talked about this on the audio pod a lot. So check out our previous episodes on just negotiations and time and management. But being able to manage up and bring data to this conversation, basically saying, hey, if you look at our sprint capacities for the last two years, we have notoriously been over-allocated and underable to deliver on time. This loss is going to be huge for us. Us filling in for them means that our releases are now even further behind than they were before. We are all even more over-allocated. So something comes off the stack, like Michael, that was a great point you made. Or we need to pick uh pivot this to a different team and they need to be able to take on this workload. Uh, I'm sure there are some other teams out there that have a little extra bandwidth than we do at the moment.

Negotiate Capacity Data And Pay

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Right. Yeah, all great points. And you know, as I think about like Aldi's, I think something to remember, maybe the biggest outcome is you took this job with an agreement of responsibilities, of expected time that you're supposed to work, and then expected pay. And you don't owe them, they're paying you to do a job. Yeah, like I think people forget that sometimes. They're like, I'm just so they're like, I'm so lucky to like have this job in this company. No, no, no, they don't operate without you. Like, I think lucky to have you, yeah. And like you need to remember, like, it is not awkward to ask for extra compensation if you're asked to do more work. And you should be willing to have those conversations because they are paying you for a service, and if you're doing more, they should pay you more. And so, like, that's the thing like I would take away for all these is don't just take whatever's told to you by HR, by manager, or whatever. Like, ask the right questions, think about it for a minute. Think about what changes for you. And does it violate your work requirements agreement and the hours you're putting in? And uh, do you need to be compensated if you have to do extra work? Like, just remember, those are all things that you're doing as a service for the company. So don't just accept them. Be prepared to negotiate, ask the right questions. And you know, even if it's you know beyond that, then probably go to HR and be like, this is not reasonable, this is not what I signed up for.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

There is a little bit of bulletproofing that occurs in all of these things you've had me react to. So in the first one, uh expected to perform any additional assignments as necessary. The second one, uh, you know, we lost this individual. Uh wait, was it was it the second one? What was the second one?

SPEAKER_01 44:16

I don't know if that was the second one. We jumped a little bit all over the place. Looking for people that go above and beyond fast-paced environments. Fast paced environment, uh-huh. Uh, we lost somebody. We lost somebody, yeah. We need to fill in lost two people when we fill in that role.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

Yeah. So all of these bring a little bit of bulletproofing to you. And and what I mean by that is when you take that job, or when someone comes to you and tells you these things, you survived, which now means that your stock is a little bit higher than it was before. Because the expectation is you will be able to carry the torch onward that this person wasn't able to, or that you are able to do more than our other employees are able to. You are a little bit bulletproof in these scenarios, and I think people forget that, right? Like when you survive a layoff, they are expecting you to do the job now, right? Like, you need to fill in the gaps, they don't want you to leave, they do not want you to leave. The layoff was getting rid of those folks that they thought were acceptable to get rid of. You are deemed necessary. Yeah, that gives you negotiating power. They need you, they need you now more than ever. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

A hundred percent. Yeah, and I I think like as I was watching these, I think that's like the overarching message is you are a survivor, you're the one they need to keep on operating. You were deemed as the one they need, and they're not just gonna fire you on the spot for asking questions. Either they're gonna get afraid and be like, okay, I'm not gonna ask this person to do this, or they're gonna be like, dang, you're right. Like, we do need to compensate you because you're gonna have to work 10 extra hours a week to make up this person's hours. And so I think those are all fair things. I I've mentioned on this podcast before, and I've had employees come to me where like we're challenging them. I wanted to grow this person, and they're like, hey, I know you want me to take on these additional projects, and I want to, but that means I would have to put in extra time. So I'd like to be compensated for those extra responsibilities. And that was a totally fair conversation. I didn't even think about it as being a bad manager, but I didn't even think about it. But that's a totally fair expectation and the reality of how those conversations should go.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Yeah, I love that. I I think these are the these are the points to negotiate on when you can do that level of negotiation.

Shorts Algorithms And Platform Fatigue

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Right, 100%. So yeah, it was fun. It was an interesting rabbit hole to get down. It was fun hearing your reactions. What is a lot of right answers?

SPEAKER_02 46:34

You found these on TikTok, you know. Well, I mean, here's the thing. I I don't really hate TikTok content. I hate TikTok the platform. So difference, right? The good people, the good content creators who post on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, whatever the hell. Yeah, they're just doing their thing. They're being creative, they're doing what we're doing. We're on YouTube. I'm not, I'm not bad mouthing. I'm just that platform. Ooh. Yeah. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, it's well, actual spyware, you know, like I don't use social media. And what I realize, like going on TikTok for five seconds, it's the same thing as Instagram reels, YouTube shorts, LinkedIn has their own thing. I'm like, this is all the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Just on different platforms, right? Am I am I missing something or is that real?

SPEAKER_02 47:18

No, it is it is all the same thing, it is all on different platforms. Uh most most content creators, see, we're we're the dumb ones because we literally had an audio podcast for five years, and we, you know, we had it spread across all the audio platforms. Yeah, but now that we're on YouTube, we could be doing shorts, we could be doing um cross posts to all the social platforms, but I'm too stupid to do it, and that's the problem. You can't claim stupidity, you're the smart one. Everyone knows you're the smart one. You cannot claim stupidity. In every good podcast, buddy cop relationship, Ghostbusters, there is the dumb one who is funny, and then there's the smart one that gets things done. I am Bill Murray. You are Harold Ramus. What we need is a Dan Akyroid to really round things out. We need the weird conspiracy theorists as our third wheel to kind of come in and be like, oh, but you know, the real truth behind all of this is we don't actually fire anybody. Uh, they cut the bodies and and and feed them into a tube and they just work that back into the food you eat, so they're not really lost, they're gained as a part of your system. See, that's what we're missing on this podcast. Yeah, we need that third opinion. It really would. That would bring such an interesting angle that everyone would want to hear. So we're recruiting uh for a third podcast host, unpaid, by the way. You're you're not going to make money from this. You do you do this for the love of the game. Why do you do you see this? Like, why is why is my mouse on your face? Look at this. It's like a little fly. I I don't I don't think I see it. You're moments behind. Don't worry. Oh no, now it's on me. It's on my nose. I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

I don't I don't see it.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

One more thing for me to look into and fix before the next one.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Um no, I actually do see it. Yeah, I see it on the YouTube. This is good. We're doing great.

Subscribe Patreon And Closing

SPEAKER_02 49:18

This is good content for our audio-only listeners. Hey, so you know, I think, I think, good job. Good job, Michael, as always. Keeping us on track, keeping it real. Good good on you. For those of you who are audio-only listeners, we still love you and we appreciate you. Um, I do want to ask, check out our YouTube channel. If you haven't taken a look at uh our faces yet, you're missing out. One of us is handsome, one of us is not. Uh you will quickly determine the uh order of operations on that one. One of us is smart, one of us is not. You'll I mean, we already went over that. So it's all not me. Michael is batting a hundred right now. Check out our YouTube channel. Uh, it would be great if you like, comment, and subscribe. And I say that with all seriousness. I've made fun of it my entire life, but it turns out like all of this stuff really matters for the YouTube algorithm. And getting discovered on YouTube is a hard uphill battle, and it only happens with your help. So if you're not sharing the audio pod, that's fine. We forgive you. Go on YouTube, please subscribe, check out our video. If you've listened to it already, just leave a comment, just say, like, hey, I was here, and that's that's good enough for us. It's engagement for the algorithm, and we will all worship the algorithm. Uh hey, if you want to check out the rest of the stuff we're doing, you want to support the show monetarily, um, you can do so by clicking the link in the show notes. It's in both YouTube as well as the podcast audio. We have a Patreon. Uh, we've got our first official non-public Patreon content. So it's for paid members only. We gave a little sneak peek in our Discord last week of what that looked like. It's actually really fun for Michael and I to do. There's gonna be a lot more of that in the future. So if you want to get that more personal, invasive in our lives content, if you want to really feel like you're in a parasocial relationship with us and be our friends, sign up for the Patreon. Uh, it's a dollar or ten dollars a month, depending on how much you want to contribute, but it does help us help the show be better.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

It was a lot of fun. Yeah, you're missing out. We're gonna do some, we might play Popopia. You heard you every if you were here and you listened to this, you heard about 20 minutes of Pacopia talk. We might have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

It's gonna be a great time. I'm sad that I rambled for 20 straight minutes, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

You should have cut me off at like five. It was a good amount.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Oh, and uh Michael has been lost to the internet, gremlins. You are now out of okay, you're back. You're back. Cool. So hey, we know that's a sign, if any, that I think it's time we gotta go shut this thing down. Oh no, the mouse is back. Oh no, it's it's kidding you, it's going for you. Uh thanks as always, Michael, for your your constant support, affection, and attention on this pod. I really appreciate you bringing the topics. Thanks to you, our listeners and our audience and our viewers for joining in, bringing the chats, bringing the heat, bringing the views. We thank you for your patronage. If you are one of our fine Patreon supporters, and until next time, I'm Anthony. And I'm Michael, and you are on mute. We will see you next week.