Corporate Strategy
Corporate Strategy
Real Collaboration Is Rare
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We challenge the way workplaces use “collaboration” and argue that most of it is just independent work with a shared deadline. We map out what real collaboration looks like, why it’s rare, and how to avoid meetings that waste time and strip teams of autonomy.
• production issues, missing audio, and why last week only lives as shorts
• a mini crusade against LinkedIn AI slop and the idea of reporting 10 posts a day
• the cheese ball obsession and why it somehow becomes a lifestyle
• “collaboration” versus task handoffs, plus the group project origin story
• doers, detractors, and the middle, and how to assign work without getting burned
• where collaboration actually happens, especially in code reviews, marketing reviews, and Scrum refinement
• the sev one mega call anti pattern where one person does the work and everyone else watches
• a practical filter for better sessions: right people, clear output, real decision power
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Elevator Music by Julian Avila
Promoted by MrSnooze
Don't forget ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ it helps!
Cold Open And Audio Chaos
SPEAKER_01Nah. Nah. Nah. I'm not feeling it.
SPEAKER_03I held my breath for such a long time. And you said nothing.
SPEAKER_01Nah. I'm Anthony.
SPEAKER_03And I'm Michael.
SPEAKER_01You're on mute.
SPEAKER_02Nah.
SPEAKER_03All right, we'll see you next week.
SPEAKER_02See you next week. That's what I that's what I have to say to you. See you next week.
SPEAKER_03That is. That's it. That's it.
SPEAKER_02Shortest pot ever. That's I think that's that's the energy I've got.
SPEAKER_03You're looking so relaxed right now.
SPEAKER_02I just came back from a massage.
SPEAKER_03Nice.
SPEAKER_02Like not even good. Yeah, no, I'm feeling good. My hair's a little uh a little up and up and at him, because you know I have my face in the thing.
SPEAKER_03It's all good.
SPEAKER_02I'm surviving. You know, I needed it. I needed it more than I've ever needed it.
SPEAKER_03I needed it. You're you know, I hate to tell you this. Your mic sounds weird. You did it. You did whatever you did, you did it wrong. And now we're doing this again where we can't get our production right for the third week in a row. We've done messed up.
SPEAKER_02No, I think you're wrong. Oh, now it's perfect. I I think uh I think the mic was fine. I think Discord did a funky.
SPEAKER_03I don't think. I hear like it you turn to a robot for like a millisecond every time you talk.
SPEAKER_02Oh, just a millisecond?
SPEAKER_03I don't know if just one? It could be a me problem.
SPEAKER_02I think it is a you problem. I think it is a you problem. Yeah, it's gonna find out.
SPEAKER_03We're gonna find out together.
SPEAKER_02I think it's a you problem. Uh no one's in the chat. Can't ask him. Can't ask him. Wouldn't you ask him if I could ask him? Let me check.
SPEAKER_03Well, this is good. I I know I know listens. I know everybody that listens to our podcast actually loves when we just go through production issues right at the beginning. And obviously, our editor just decides to leave it in because they think it's hilarious. But yes, we pay for a professional editor thousands of dollars a month, and yeah, you know, they just decide to leave this all in.
SPEAKER_02I couldn't even salvage last week's episode. It was unsalvageable.
SPEAKER_03Did you even post it?
SPEAKER_02No, no. If you want to no, no, there's nothing to share. You know, there's nothing to share.
SPEAKER_03You know, our shorts went live.
SPEAKER_02Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_03The shorts were there. There's just no episode tied to them, they're just out there in the ether.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's no volume in the episode. So those are good, those are great. That's great. It's me talking to you nothing because you're ghost-like the entire episode.
SPEAKER_03Yikes, yeah, yikes. The shorts, locally, the shorts platform actually cleans up your voice. Cleans up my voice, sorry, and actually makes it audible. So the shorts fix it all. The shorts fix it all. You just don't get an episode. So follow us on YouTube. If you're not on YouTube, you got nothing.
SPEAKER_02I don't believe that. I don't believe that because I tried to normalize the audio and like there's no saving it. There's no saving.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, they're probably using some proprietary AI nonsense, and that's whatever. Whatever.
SPEAKER_03Oh, so what you're saying is last episode is actually exclusively only on shorts. That is put on our YouTube, it's put on our Instagram, it's posted on our locked on. So if you're on locked
The LinkedIn AI Slop Cleanup Pledge
SPEAKER_03on, it's there too. So if you want the tips from our last episode, that's the only way to get them. Follow along.
SPEAKER_02I I uh I can't I can't use longed on anymore. I just can't do it. That platform sucks, which means I'm not using any platforms uh these days. I have no platforms that I access, but geez, like every time I had to go on there recently for like a work thing, it is just the dumbest, like most nothing posts. People just go on LinkedIn and post nothing, and that's all they do. That's all they do. There's no insight, there's no like it's all self-backpatting, self-congratulatory nothingness, and it's not even good. It's not even good that. It's terrible.
SPEAKER_03You know, I'm just looking to see if I can find anything fun to read out to you. Hey, I can I pass my certified Scrum product owner exam. Congrats! Who cares? Let's see what other nonsense is on here. Who cares? I just get ads, I just get ads after ad after ad. Uh it's not great. You know that what if the career you never planned for turns out to be exactly where you're meant to be?
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh, please don't don't locked on for you, folks. Don't say that kind of stuff out loud. You'll you will get this show canceled for just the utter stupidity.
SPEAKER_03Actually, you know what? This is how you get into the algorithm. This is this will be our master plan. What we do is we just go on LinkedIn, and every single episode we just read the top headlines, and that's the whole episode. And then we make it in the algorithm, boom, instant success, growth, hockey stick to the moon.
SPEAKER_02Uh, in our chat, uh Alexander Jojo says that now there is a report AI slot button on LinkedIn. Oh, which that could bring me back. That could bring me back because I will just report everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that'll be a good hobby for me.
SPEAKER_02Instead of playing, you know, like Pac-Man where you eat all the pellets. I'm just gonna go on LinkedIn and report literally every post, whether it's AI Slop or not, and get the platform shut down. I think it's a good goal. I think it's a good goal.
SPEAKER_03I love that. Yeah, I think every day we should all go on and report at least 10. We should do our civil duties. Ooh, I like that. It's like cleaning LinkedIn. In the world, you pick up pollution. You know, you find a wrapper, uh bag or something, a piece of paper on the road. What do you do? You pick it up. You be a good steward, you clean up your world. We need to do this for the digital space too. Every day we go in and we report 10 slop AI nonsense posts on locked on. And if we all do that every single day in a year, it might be better.
SPEAKER_02You know, this is actually, I think like zooming out broader scope, this is a really good idea. Uh what you what you just suggested. Like, if we started a campaign that was like, hey, in your day, find 10 pieces of crap on the internet and purge them. Report them, purge them, whether it's toxic behavior, AI slop, like if if every person went and found 10 things to purge from the internet. Yep, I think that would lead to a better society writ large.
SPEAKER_03A better internet. I don't want to be on the internet.
SPEAKER_02Well, the society is the internet, so ergo visit me concordedly.
SPEAKER_03All right, do your civil duty. Everyone remember. Do it, go in. Clean it up. 10 slot posts a day. I will take the pledge.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I take the pledge. I take it too. I pledge.
SPEAKER_03Take the pledge?
SPEAKER_02I pledge.
SPEAKER_03Girl Scouts?
SPEAKER_02Girl Scouts.
The Cheese Ball Confession
SPEAKER_02Um how you doing? How you doing?
SPEAKER_03Good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I actually I said good. It's actually bad.
SPEAKER_02That's a weird, that's that's a weird reaction. Oh, I'm doing good, but not really.
SPEAKER_03You'll understand when I tell you. I have I have a problem, Anthony.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you don't have to tell me.
SPEAKER_03It's a problem you don't know about.
SPEAKER_02Oh no. Is it is it appropriate for you two? You're not gonna show pictures, are you?
SPEAKER_03No, no, feet, no feet picks this episode.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03I uh I have been obsessively eating cheese balls, and I can't stop.
SPEAKER_02Are they are they like organic or are they just like gas station cheese balls?
SPEAKER_03No, no, they're not the really crappy orange bag. My wife and I went to we went to Costco, and there's this brand, Lesser Evil. You've probably heard of them. They make the Himalayan sea salt kettle. Oh, those are so good. Yeah, and those are so good. But so good. My dentist actually banned me. My dentist told me you can't eat popcorn anymore. It's bad for your teeth, it gets stuck in your gums, it's not good for you. So don't eat popcorn. So I said, Okay, I need another snack. So my wife and I who is there for at Costco, I was looking around at Costco and I said, Let me find another snack. I want a snack. And they were these cheese balls by this company. And let me tell you, it's a Costco-sized bag, and I can eat the whole thing in one snack. Yeah, they are so dang good, and the ingredients are not bad. It's got like six ingredients, which is really hard to find for cheese balls.
SPEAKER_02I like how I like how your definition of like, I have a confession, I'm gonna tell you something really bad and heinous. You come on and say the most normal freaking thing a human being can say into the microphone, like, oh, I ate a bag of cheese balls. Dude, who hasn't? Find me a person on the planet that hasn't eaten a bag of cheese balls in one sitting this week. I've done it like three times. It's it's just it's part of being alive. You can't sit on a couch and not eat a bag of cheese balls. That's that's physical. I'd be more impressed if you said I didn't eat the bag. Then I'd be like, okay, that's weird. I that's weird.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're a freak if you have self-control. But yeah, it's it's been a problem. I've been eating them obsessively. And because like they're such a good high-volume, low-calorie snack that it's a problem because you can just eat so much, yeah, and you can just keep on eating and you don't feel terrible about yourself. It's fantastic. I love it. What's the problem? What is the problem? Where is it? It's just show me on the chart. My fingers are covered in cheese all the time, they smell like cheese balls. My stomach is filled with cheese balls all day, every day. It's a great.
SPEAKER_02This is not a problem. This is a solution. This is the best thing that could possibly happen to you. Fingers covered in cheese dust? That's the extra snack right there. Just shove those things right in your mouth hole.
SPEAKER_03Something for a little later. Yeah. A little snack for later.
SPEAKER_02That's a snack for later.
SPEAKER_03That's been my week. I got nothing else going on. Just cheese.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm glad. Uh uh I don't even want to think about my week. I don't want to think about it. It's just gonna make me upset. It's gonna be it's gonna make me hurt inside. And I feel good right now.
SPEAKER_03Okay, we won't go there. You had the day off, didn't you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Good. Yeah. What was it? What'd you do?
SPEAKER_02I took an emergency day off. Uh, because that's how that's how things are going for me right now.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, it's been good so far. It's been good. Yeah, it's
Florida Merch And Coffee Shop Rage
SPEAKER_00been good.
SPEAKER_03Well, I can't wait to just bring you right back into corporate on your. Oh, also, uh, this has become a weekly tradition that people actually want to ask you about. What's on your shirt? Can you can I see the shirt? Let me let me see the Florida. What is this?
SPEAKER_02What do you mean there's a trend?
SPEAKER_03Who's asking? Who cares? Like everyone, everyone. Are you not paying attention? No, Florida Wrestling Club. Come on, fam, lift with your legs. They're wrestling a bunch of alligators in the swamp. Mmm, gator jerky. Nice. I like that.
SPEAKER_02It's freehand goods.
SPEAKER_03I like that.
SPEAKER_02It's freehand goods. I like it's the same company that made my uh teenage gopher ninja tortoise, Florida gopher. Really? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I gotta get in on this. I need some of that merch.
SPEAKER_02They uh there's a there's a secret spot in central Florida, Orlando, that uh good food, good handcrafted goods, very millennial. It's like the most millennial spot you've ever been to. In fact, you have to show a card uh that says I am a millennial to go there. So they you know, they might not let you in. You might be a little too young. You know, you don't pass.
SPEAKER_03I literally, some of these places that I go to now, like I go to a coffee shop and I instantly feel old. I look around and I'm just like, this is such a hipster like coffee spot, and there's only young people here. I feel so old. They're all doing school stuff, must be college students. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Are you I feel old now? Are you referring to the CNC coffee shop? Are you is that what you're referring to?
SPEAKER_03Uh coffee for the soul is one of them that's been hot.
SPEAKER_02That that place in my students are I hate that place.
SPEAKER_03It's it's not the worst place I've been to, but it's not the best.
SPEAKER_02It is. I'd rather give Starbucks money. Well, one, they I mean, the worst part is is they charge you just like an arm and a leg for the most mid-coffee. It's like, you know, at least Starbucks, like Starbucks is an evil corporation that actually, you know, probably wants human slavery, but you know, the coffee tastes good, right? So at least at least the the good you are paying for with your money doesn't taste bad, but it's like, yeah, you're paying, you know, five, six dollars for a coffee. You go to CFS, you're paying like nine dollars for coffee that's not as good as Starbucks. Like, what are we doing here? What's the what is the idea behind this place? Like, I hate that place. Oh, the worst. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's tough, it's tough.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, everybody's sucks, too.
SPEAKER_03I I don't need at coffee shops, it's a rule, actually. You just don't, you just don't.
SPEAKER_02What I it's always bad. You know what? No, no, you're going, you're going to the worst coffee shops.
SPEAKER_03Go for the coffee.
SPEAKER_02You're going to the worst coffee shops. My goodness.
SPEAKER_03All right, all right. After this, I'm gonna text you. We're gonna figure out this place that you're getting this merch, and I'm gonna go there.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean, they don't. I mean, okay, all right, okay, all right.
SPEAKER_03You'll give me a secret sauce later. I'll give you a secret sauce. Maybe in the Discord, maybe in the Discord.
SPEAKER_02No, I can't do it. Patreon's only patrons only.
SPEAKER_03Patreon. Okay, that's what you're holding.
SPEAKER_02You want to know the secret spots in Orlando? You gotta be part of our patron. That's the way it is.
SPEAKER_03That's the that's the rule.
Paying For AI Tools And Hating It
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can't give this stuff up for free. People pay for the Michelin guide. I'm you know, I like the Michelin guide, but cheaper.
SPEAKER_03You know, inside of our because our episode last last week just disappeared, Jojo was kind enough to say in the comments, seemed to be a lot of anger in last week's episode. So you're really holding out on the people. There was a lot of anger, outragedness.
SPEAKER_02I don't know how to fix your audio, so I can't I can't make it work. I mean, if you want to take the your your little AI utilities and you know have them go fix it. Let me see. Give me a file.
SPEAKER_03I'll see what I can do. Give me a file, I'll give you a file. Give me a file, give you a WAV, maybe an MP4. I'll give you a file. If you it's maybe a WAF.
SPEAKER_02If you can do it, I will upload it.
SPEAKER_03All right, let me see what I can do.
SPEAKER_02I cannot fix it with the tool sets my hand has access to, which is manual tools, because I don't use AI, except for our stupid awful icons on YouTube.
SPEAKER_03Those are pretty good for me anyway. You are unaiable. I am very AIable.
SPEAKER_02You you would not believe how many times it takes for me to get something even usable with with Jim and I. It's it's like, please use the hosts from the episode, and then it goes and grabs like a host from like Joe Rogan experience. I'm like, that is not the hosts on this episode. Never show me those faces. I don't ever want to see any of those faces ever again. And then it like doesn't show a face at all. And I'm I'm just who's paying? Well, I mean, you did see that like everything went down yesterday, which was just a joyful moment for me. Uh, it's the beginning of the end, but I just want to I just want to know who's paying for these services because they're so bad. It's so bad.
SPEAKER_03I use a lot of them. I pay for only like one now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Just because I've tried, I've dabbled, and they're just not there yet.
SPEAKER_02Which one you pay for?
SPEAKER_03You're gonna hate this. I use Chat GPT codecs for like all my development stuff, and it's really good. I never hit my limits. I had use it a crazy amount, like crazy amounts of tokens are leaving my computer every day. Never hit my limits, it's great.
SPEAKER_02It's great. I'm glad you're supporting literally the worst one. Thanks, Michael. It's great.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's it's the product. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02Sam Hutton literally wants people to be slaves, but you know, I'm glad you're giving him money. That's that's good.
SPEAKER_03Wait, did we did we talk about the tweet that he had the other day?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03Uh on this episode.
SPEAKER_02Well, the one about how to raise children.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02How how you should make a podcast of how your children are good instead of actually talking to them. No, we love Sam Altman. Let's give him more money. Thanks, Michael.
SPEAKER_03That was such a good tweet, and I just love like every time I need something to make me chuckle a little bit these days. That's the thing I go to to be like, man, cool fact. You can use our product create podcast for your kids to go into their insights and talk to them about their day. First, the first response that got all the replies. You know, you could just like talk to your kids. It's crazy. It's crazy. I loved it so much. I'm so I loved it.
SPEAKER_02There is gonna come a day, hypothetically, hypothetically, for all the lawyers, there's gonna be a day, fictionally, a fictional day in the future, where I am running at one of these buildings with a lit Molotov cocktail, and you're running the opposite way with like a barrel full of cash. And that's that's gonna be where we cross paths, like fox and the hound. Uh, and I'm gonna be like, what happened? What happened to you, Copper? You used to be a good hound, and now you're a bad hound.
SPEAKER_03Oh good times.
SPEAKER_02Good times, great times.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I
What Collaboration Really Means
SPEAKER_03got something to talk to you about.
SPEAKER_02Give it to me.
SPEAKER_03Something that something that we do all the time. No way.
SPEAKER_02We don't do we don't do anything all the time.
SPEAKER_03I'm turning down my my light because it's getting a little darker, so I don't want to blast you with my my light on.
SPEAKER_02I have I have screen dimming. You're good.
SPEAKER_03Oh, so you're good either way. Okay.
SPEAKER_02The viewers don't care. Promise you, they want to be washed out.
SPEAKER_03We we do this all the time. This is gonna be your favorite topic to talk about. Uh, what are what would you say we're doing right now? Not podcasting, but like what is the thing that we're doing together right now?
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Making fun of each other's weird tendencies and quirks. Yes, yes, but we're also creating something, we're having ideas, we're working together. Some would say collaborating. Are we collaborating? Is that what this is? Would you say that this is this is a collab? Is that what we're doing together?
SPEAKER_02Is this is this a like, are we is did my lawyer sign off on this? Like, I don't think that's legal. I don't think we should be collaborating. I don't think we should be right now. I don't think it's okay for us to collab.
SPEAKER_03No, your your brand, Anthony, my brand, Michael, we're collabbing right now to create the podcast that is corporate strategy, the podcast that could have been an email.
SPEAKER_02All right, I follow so far.
SPEAKER_03So I wanted to talk about what collaboration looks like. What how do you collaborate? How do I collaborate? How should people collaborate? Because I've been on I've been on some interesting, I'm putting in quotes for everyone who can't see me, collaboration meetings recently. And it's weird. It's weird the more you think about it. Like the more you think about what happened during this meeting and what was expected of me. Was it a collaboration or did I just get bulldozed? I've been in some weird, weird collaborations as of late. And so I thought we'd tell the people what do we do to collaborate? What is an effective collaboration in Anthony's mind? Where does it go right? Where does it go wrong? When does it feel good, bad, ugly?
SPEAKER_02I think typical collaboration all stems back to that moment in college when you're first put in a group project and you realize whether you are the doer or the don'ter.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's you set in stone, there's no changing you. You are who you are. Like you either helped that project or you didn't, and you got the grade anyway, because the people who were gonna do the work were gonna do it, the 80-20 rule, right? Like principle, yeah, earliest collaboration, right? Like you can be like, Oh, yeah, but I played in a sports team, or I, you know, I was in theater, I was in course, but like you have someone who's kind of guiding the collaboration in those instances. It's your coach, it's your teacher, it's whatever. It's once you get that first independent group project where there is no adult in the room, it is just you and your fellow students. That is the most viscerally real collaboration that you are going to experience for the rest of your life. Just either disappointment and distress over the fact that you are the only one capable of doing the job, or the realization that, hey, I don't have to work, other people will do the job for me. Life is great. Uh sadly, sadly, I think you and I fell in the former camp and we'll we'll die younger because of that. That. But you know, there's a lot of people out there that are just reaping the benefits of all that we do. But I don't believe in collaboration. I don't think it's real. That was uh that was my roundabout way of getting there to say I don't think it's real. We're not collaborating right now. We're we're working independently together.
SPEAKER_03I love where you're starting with this because that is it's so funny to think about. It's a group project is different than playing in sports because it's when you're on a sports team, one, you're usually collaborating collaborating, you're usually competing. Yeah, collaborating, yeah, competing against other people. And you have a coach or you have like a super, you have a supervisor in that sentence, in that in that context, you know. But when you're in a group project, it's you and a bunch of people around you, and it's totally up to you guys to figure out when are we meeting? What are the objectives? Who's gonna take on what? Let's go figure this out together. And it's an individual grade for all of you based on how you do that together. And there's not a lot of supervision, which is like a really interesting way to look at that. Is how corporate is, and that's the most that's the that's probably the youngest. A lot of people get a taste of that type of experience.
SPEAKER_02Well, you think even about like professional sports, NFL, MLB, whatever, right? Like there are still owners of the team, there are coaches, you will get cut if your performance isn't good enough. Like, I would argue that's not real collaboration, that's forced collaboration. And there is they're all eyes on you, the player, basically. To if I mess this up, I'm gonna be on ESPN, they're gonna be making fun of me, and then I'm gonna lose my job and lose my million-dollar paycheck. But like, you don't have that in the office. Literally, you know, Gary can go hide in his cubicle and say, I've been working on this project for the last six months. It's just taking a really long time to get it done. And Gary has not done anything. Gary has literally been playing Minesweeper all day, gets a new high score every day, goes to lunch, comes back, does it again. Like that's that's Gary's entire MO, and he will do that for years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I go back to those projects. Unfortunately, I wasn't a I'm not very academic. I'm not, I wasn't a great student.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I wanted to help the people that I worked with. So like I felt bad not doing anything. So I would do better in group projects because like I didn't want to like let them down and like be that person that they're all like, dude, like you got to do something. I could never like that, never sat well with me. But like individually, academics, I'm more of a hands-on learner, not theoretical learner, so that didn't work well for me. But the group project is really like the group project
Doers Detractors And The Middle
SPEAKER_03is a great example. So, okay, let's break this down. What type of people do you have in the group project? You've got the drivers, options that are like, all right, guys, we're gonna do this, this, this. Let's meet on Thursday night, Friday night. And then you have the people who don't care and they're just sitting there, like, I'm good, sorry, I'm booked that night. I got practice, I got this thing going on. I'm not doing that on Saturday morning. Yeah, the detractors that are just like, it's instantly like segregated between the two groups of like, this group isn't gonna do anything, and this group is gonna do it, do something. And then you have those people who like want to be involved, but then you don't want them to be involved, if you know what I mean. Like that one person you're just like, oh man, we got Anthony in our group. Shoot, this is gonna be terrible.
SPEAKER_02And I think that middle group is really where that's where the opportunity for collaboration to occur is because the doers need to be able to look at I don't know, the middlers. I don't know what we're gonna call that group. There's the doers, the detractors, and the middlers, right? Like they just they ride that middle. They could be a detractor, they could be a doer. You have to be able to identify what is their strength, what can you task them on that you can take one less thing off your plate and put it on theirs. And then I think you might have the seed of collaboration. But I would still argue it's still working independently together. Like, I think collaboration is very, very rare.
SPEAKER_03You think so?
SPEAKER_02I do.
SPEAKER_03Imagine, okay, you've got to make a paper mache volcano. You're working together, you're collaborating, you're you're putting the the mache on the paper. I don't actually know. I haven't paper mache in so long.
SPEAKER_02You mache the paper.
SPEAKER_03You're putting the mache, you're macheing the paper, you're handing the paper to me. I'm slapping it on the volcano structure. Is that not collaboration?
SPEAKER_02I don't think it is. I don't think it is. No, no, I think I'm we have macheing the paper, and that's all I do. And if if I were to fall to the wayside, you'd be like, that's not my job. I'm not doing that.
SPEAKER_03And I just stopped, the project wouldn't complete.
SPEAKER_02For me, collaboration is when you are lifting a boulder, and you cannot lift that boulder alone. You need someone else to lift and do the same activity with you. That is real collaboration, right? Like, I cannot do this without the other person. Now we're collaborating.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Ants build ant hills in a very collaborative manner.
SPEAKER_03Bugs life. We already know that story. We've talked about it a lot on this podcast. We do very relatable to real life.
SPEAKER_02The bugs will eat the billionaires. It's a guaranteed fact.
SPEAKER_03That's that will be our future. No, but that is interesting to think about like, is it truly collaboration if you're just like dividing tasks and doing them completely separately? Or is it collaboration? I guess does it count if you have a one working goal that you're working towards and you have a deadline and you're like, there's no way I can do this by myself. I need help. I have a code review, Anthony. I need you to review my code to make sure that it abides by our standards and I didn't miss something. Is that collaboration?
SPEAKER_02According to Google, collaboration is the process of two or more people, groups or organizations working together to complete a task, share knowledge, or achieve a shared goal. I don't I don't feel like sharing knowledge is collaboration, though. That's teaching, isn't it? Isn't that teaching?
SPEAKER_03That's educating. It's teaching, it's share learning, it's educating each other. So I guess when it's a two-way instead of a one-way, it's different.
SPEAKER_02Jobs where you collaborate. Um whaling.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, give me a few.
SPEAKER_02When you're when you're on the when you're on the whaling ship and you are actively working with relatable. Yeah, when you're actively working with your harpooning companion to you know throw that harpoon so you can dig the whale oil out of that sperm whale's head uh to power your lamps because you're too dumb to know that you could get oil from the ground. Uh, that I think is a truly collaborative effort.
SPEAKER_03Maybe lobstering. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02You know, I mean, I think I think you might be honest on things, like big catch fishing, where it's the you have the big nets. That's collaboration right there. Because you can't you can't do it on your own.
SPEAKER_03You can never do it on your own. It's gotta be collaboration. Yeah. I do think I think programming is actually like building a program, writing code, working on the same app is actually really close to productive collaboration.
SPEAKER_02Here's my county. I would say okay, give me why.
SPEAKER_03Give me why. I'll I'll give I'll give you why. You're working on building a product together, and so you have to kind of like write your piece. Now, pair programming to me has never like really worked. I don't know if you have a different perspective. Like, to me, my brain doesn't work well when I'm like deep writing code and like someone is next to me, like asking questions. Like it's really hard to write productive code when like you're constantly being distracted or you're trying to explain stuff to people. You're just not gonna get a lot done. So, like pair programming to me actually never made any sense. But I do see that when you submit your code and you're like, hey, I worked on this, I just wanted to get your thoughts, Anthony. Could you do a review for me? And then you review my code, like that is collaboration because you're like, hey, could have done this a little better. Actually, you know, let's reorganize this function to fit in this class and like we can abstract it from the beginning solution. Like you're creating something together.
SPEAKER_02I could see that. I like I think that the code review portion is the collaboration, but I think the independent content creation, when you're saying, hey, you're gonna go build, you're gonna go build the home page, and I'm gonna go build the database crawler. That's not collaboration. Like, yeah, you're working on the same, like you're working towards the same outcome, like doing the front end, you're doing the back end, but like you're doing it your way, I'm doing it my way. That's not collaboration. I do think your point code review, right? When you're actually sitting down telling someone like to the education, right? And it's like, hey, I think you could do it this way because you'd get a little bit uh more optimal functionality, or this will, you know, uh reduce the amount of overall lines you have
Code Reviews Marketing Reviews And Reality
SPEAKER_02to execute. And then taking that knowledge and applying it, that I think that that fits my definition of collaboration, but I think that's rare. I think that's rare. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03In your role now, where do you collaborate? What is it? What does a role as a marketing director collaboration look like for you?
SPEAKER_02For me, it really is in the review phase, just like with coding. Yeah, um, I would say that's the most collaboration. Because so much of, especially with my team, all my team are specialists, they all do their own thing, and I let them do their own thing because they're good at it. Uh, the review phase is really where the collaboration happens. It's either me saying, Hey, I just went and built this message house. Let's let's read through it together and uh shout opinions at each other and we'll you know improve it that way.
SPEAKER_03Or you know, wait, how do you do that? You've got to talk people through like what where are you putting this? Where are you? Are you just doing it over chats? Are you doing it in a meeting? Are you doing a silent read over the material?
SPEAKER_02Uh, because you'll no one will ever hear last week's episode. Hell no. Um, that's insane, uh, which is still my point. But usually I'll send out a document uh in OneDrive and notify them, say, hey, read through this. Feel free to leave comments. Um, sometimes, rarely, I will get on a Teams call and we can go through the document together and talk through it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, that's that's sort of the maximum collaboration.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So they they give you comments, they give you red lines, you go in, kind of iterate on that and keep on building it out. And you're like, hey, hey, Sam, this is uh what I would advise you to tweet next time instead of what you tweeted today.
SPEAKER_02Well, in marketing is very handoff oriented, right? Like, yeah, sure. Example, we need to create more leads for sales. So we have a demand gen sort of person who's like, you know what is working really well right now? Webinars. So but then we, you know, webinar person. I need you to go research and find the top agencies to partner and pair and do webinars with. Found some, go talk to finance. Can I get budget so I can, you know, pay for these webinars? Cool. I need talent for the webinar. Anthony, can you be on the webinar? Yes. But like it's it's very much just machine handoffs every step of the journey. There's no collaboration that's happening there. Like, no one's working together towards the goal. Everyone's working independently towards the goal. And I think that's that's my point is like collaboration just doesn't, I don't think it happens often because one, you have to be really good at being a person. And I think most people suck at being people, right? Like, you know, actually, I think you joked in the beginning, we're doing it right now. We do. I think you and I collaborate really well. That's why we've got like 400 episodes of a podcast and you know, 10 years of long loving friendship. But it's it's because we can disagree, we can be in the same room, working on an idea together at the same time, and not want to strangle each other at the end or be like, man, I can't stand working with Michael. I'd be so much faster if he wasn't in the room. But that's work. Work is actively avoiding having to work with other people because you know they're gonna slow you down. Where true collaboration, that's the rare sort of beautiful thing that occurs on corporate strategy, the podcast. It could have been an email. I'm Anthony.
SPEAKER_03And I'm Michael.
SPEAKER_02And I don't think you get that many places.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, I was trying to think, and you kind of got to the crux of where my head went when I thought about this topic because it's hard to collaborate well. And you see it all day, I see it all day of like, hey Anthony, we're doing this brainstorming, like, come in and like help us out. And like, you know, you just dread it because you're just like, it's it's exactly to your point. It's people that I just know, like, we're not gonna be productive. There's people that are coming in with brand new ideas that we've explored before over the years, talking to be her. Yeah, talking to be her, like everyone's just like being shummy and wasting time. It's like, guys, like just go, just have the person who's good at this continue being good at it and do it without us, and we'll be good at our parts of taking the next step from there. But like, my role and and something that I've done for years is product ownership on a scrum development team. And I think the refinement portion of the Scrum agile process is truly collaborative because you're coming in as the product owner and you're saying, This is what we need to build, this is why we need to build it, this is I'm Sally, I want to do this so that I can get that. And you're kind of going through and talking through this is how it should function, this is how it should behave when you hate these situations. And then the team kind of comes in and they're like, Oh, but wait a second, like, what about this situation or that situation? So you're kind of defining creating like what this thing should be together, that there's no way me as the product person could know what's going on in the code to inform that kind of strategy or have that type of knowledge. And so, like, a lot of that is how I look at the main collaboration for like a product owner. Yeah, but the reality is, is like I also see a lot of bad parts where it's like, hey, you also have to help with uh product strategy and road mapping. And it's like, okay, that sounds great. And then you get into a room, you start talking about ideas, and it's like, oh, but uh, our leaders got goals, and we actually have to abide by their role, their goals, not what you're thinking about now. It's like, okay, can we like get those goals? And like that can be the boundaries for our brainstorming collaboration. It's like, okay, we got the goals, but actually they want to do like these six things in each one of the goals uh to achieve whatever the objectives are. And it's like, okay, like why do we brainstorm for six hours this week when we could have just said, hey, these are the things we're doing for next year. Why are we wasting our time talking about it?
SPEAKER_02I I think actually your your example is a really it it almost produces a math formula for like what is collaboration. Collaboration is basically when the number of people you have in the room can be divided either by by organization or by individual, and there is a 50-50% shared ownership of whatever the task at hand requires to complete together. So in the case of your example, like product manager is 50%, and then the rest of the room is 50%. And as long as there is an equal back and forth conversation between group and product manager agreeing on story points, you know, priority, value, that's collaboration because it's a shared task that you're working on together. But the second like that room splits up and the product manager starts going working on strategy for the next release, and the developers start going and working on the actual individual functionality, collaboration has ended. It's over. Yeah. There's a beautiful moment in time, but now it's dead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's true. That I like that formula a lot. It's yeah, groups of people that are building a shared output together.
SPEAKER_02Equally.
SPEAKER_03And it has to be.
SPEAKER_02It's got to be equal, right? When you're building a house, yeah. I mean, think about like building a house, right? Like that's a very collaborative effort because you cannot build a house by yourself. You have to have a team of builders, right? You have to have someone who holds the thing up while someone nails the things in. Like it is it is an all hands-on-the-problem effort. Ergo
The Sev One Call That Solves Nothing
SPEAKER_02vis-a-vis vis concordedly, it's collaborative.
SPEAKER_03Yep. I think the the worst thing that I've seen that correlates to collaboration, or what people would say this is collaboration. You've been on these too. You have a seven issue pop up, you have a sev one issue pop up in your product, it's crashing for all these customers, they're losing money, everybody's mad. And what happens? Blame product boss boss. You get that is one option one, blame product management. But if that fails, the boss, boss, boss calls in all his leaders. He's like, Hey, what are we doing about this? We need to get on a call for it. And so all those leaders call their leaders, who call their leaders, who call their leaders, and eventually you get the individual contributors on this 300-person call being like, How are we solving the issue? And what does it turn into every single time? It comes in, it turns into this person right here. Anthony's working on the issue. Everyone just sits and is quiet as Anthony's working on the issue. And it's awkward, it's pointless. Everybody starts dropping because it's like, okay, the guy who actually does the work here is the one doing it. But I would say they rally around that. I've seen this happen time and time again in corporations where they're just like everybody rallies around, that was such a good collaboration. We solved the issue in record time. That was incredible. And Anthony's sitting there like, I did all of this. I literally did everything.
SPEAKER_02I did all of this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So that's the thing in corporate. Like it always comes to mind for me when I think about collaboration. It's like all the things that are collaboration are so rarely actually collaboration, yes, where it's useful.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think that's what you've made me realize. And in going to this topic, and it's always good when I walk away with something. I'm gonna really appreciate the moments of collaboration in the future because it's so rare when you think about it. Like you so rarely get the opportunity to collaborate with people. And when it happens, I think we need to look at that moment and be like, wow, this is great. If only there was a way to do more things like this. Because I I do truly sincerely believe when you can collaborate with a person uh equally and actually do the collaboration together, it will always be better than when you do it independently. I believe that. I believe that in my jellies, because it's it's the it's the multi-threading, right? Like when you take a processor and you're able to multi-thread it multiple, you know, threads working on multiple tasks, you're getting more done. Um, I think very, very rarely is single threading ever, I mean, in gaming. Okay, a lot of times in gaming, single threading is better, but that's because they're poorly built games. But in real life, I think single threading is rarely as good as being able to multi-thread. And it just doesn't happen, sadly, because it's very hard to do well. And I think it does require a little bit of a personality type too. Like you can't be a grumpus and be a collaborator, it's just not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And I'd say the ingredients I make up a good opportunity for collaboration is when you have one, I guess, an objective and a tangible output with that. So it can't just be like this overarching, we're gonna plan the strategy for next year. It's like, okay, well, what does that mean? And I relate it back to like the product management aspect of it because when you go into like a refinement with your scrum team, you typically are working on an epic or a user story or a feature, whatever you whatever you call it in your project management terms. And you're defining a set of functionality, and out of that, you're going to get a user story that a developer can then go work on. And so when you think about collaboration, try to look for those opportunities where you have an objective, you have the right people in the room that can help put the pieces together to make this objective and output possible. And then you have the wherewithal and the privilege to be able to make the right decisions in that moment without running it up the ladder. If you think you are going to a collaboration and you don't have all the information, or you can't actually make a decision, it's not a collaboration. Like you are just going to be talking in a room for no point, no reason, no point, because you don't have the information you need. You don't have the leadership of privilege to say, hey, you have full decision power, Anthony. You have this budget, go figure out how to make it happen. If you're not in that position, you can't do that, don't collaborate. There's no point.
SPEAKER_02I just had like the weirdest mental image, which is just like a vehicle, like a car or truck, a vehicle, right? Like the the tires collaborate because the tires are all on the ground working together. And then you have the axle and the wheel, which also collaborate, but in a different way. Like they're helping turn the tires. But then you have like the engine, which is like this solo thing bringing power. Like, the is the engine really collaborating, or is it just doing its own thing? Kind of providing, I don't know, like, I don't know. I don't know. But then you get to be like the air conditioning, right? Like no collaboration, anything else. The air conditioning is serving its own purpose. It is part of the driving experience, but it is not collaborating with the rest of the vehicle to bring about motion, right? It's not helping achieve its primary function, it's a secondary function that it's doing. Radio, same thing, right? Like Sky Lamp, not necessary whatsoever, but we pay them because Gary has been here for 20 years. Uh it just it's I think it's an interesting way to think about it, is like, what are the components working together to make progress? And what stands on its own. And I I think if you know, challenge to to y'all out there, if you could figure out how to make organizations more collaborative and how to make working more collaborative, you would be rich. Because I think it does improve the overall productivity process and quality of the material.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. But that's I think that's the the conundrum.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03People that do the work aren't given the decision power to be able to make those calls to make something productive. They have to say, oh, sorry guys, like I'd love to do that. I got to run it up to the boss and like see what Anthony thinks about this before I can actually make a call. And that kills all collaboration right there because you just took the power away from the team. And I think that's that's like the nature of it. Like no one's telling the tires to go. Well, I guess, I guess you are telling the tires to go, but when they're going, they're going. They make the decision, they have the output, right? And so you have to have the decision power, you have to have the autonomy, and you have to have the right people in the room that are actually going to be sharing on the output. Because if someone just comes in and they're like, Cool, that's a strategy, you guys go figure it out. It's like they're not collaborating, they're just telling people what to do. Right. Collaboration is going to happen of the people actually doing the work, and that person actually did nothing.
SPEAKER_02If the tires are all spinning different directions, the car's not going. Yeah, car's not moving. It's certainly not moving in a direction you want it to.
SPEAKER_03So I think that's like that's what it comes down to. And I've learned a few of those lately where we've been trying to collaborate and then like we get halfway through the meeting, it's like, oh, well, the boss actually doesn't want to do that. It's like, why didn't why don't we start with that? Like, do we have the ability to make that decision? And maybe that's the question to ask. Like, if you're starting a session and being like, okay, before we get started, do we have the right people in the room? Who's actually going to be working on this thing? Second, do we have the decision power or the decision maker here to actually make the calls we need to be able to move forward on the requirements or how this functions or our go-to-market strategy? And like if those answers are all yes, you're probably going to have a pretty productive session. But if you have a bunch of people that are like, none of these people actually work on this thing, it's just Anthony who works on it. Uh, we also don't have any decision power. We got to run this whole plan up by the boss, it's like, it's kind of pointless. You might as well get those people in the room and do it with you because it'd be much, much more effective.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I think collaboration really does start with identifying who you're working with, as opposed to just
Autonomy Lessons From Lord Of The Flies
SPEAKER_02craps.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yep. And that goes back all the way back to grade school where you have that project and you quickly realize what camp you sit in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Are you going to be the person who's the doer or are you going to be the person who's just sitting to the side doing nothing, the don't her, or you're going to be a middler sitting in the middle, or are you going to be the person that's in the middle hoping someone else will drive? And then once they start driving, you're like, this is really stupid. And then you take over and be like, We're actually, I'm just out of spite leading this project because I don't want them to lead it.
SPEAKER_00Been there. Been there.
SPEAKER_03Many a time where I'm just like, you know what? I feel like I have to play a part in this because this is going south real quick.
SPEAKER_02We uh one of my favorite memories uh in high school, we did uh are you familiar with the story Lord of the Flies, the book?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So we read Lord of the Flies.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I read it.
SPEAKER_02Same. We had to read it. And um part of the the like fun English class activity was they actually like let the class be sort of the the teacher, like lead simulate Lord of the Flies in the class. And I remember like day one, we had some activities we had to kind of like sketch out and figure out who was gonna hold the conch, who was gonna, you know, be the gatherer, who was gonna be the forager. And then like day two, it was very clear that we didn't have the food or resources in the simulation to live. And I'm just like, all right, y'all, I'm gonna take the conch because this is not working, and just change the path. And like we, I remember like it was they we in the debrief, like when we after we finished reading the book, we finished the simulation, like at the end of the week, they're like, you know, had Anthony not stepped up and kind of pivoted, you all would have died. But it just, you know, someone someone else came in as leader and basically said, like, this isn't working, we have to pivot. We need to rethink about how we're handling this survival scenario. Change the outcome. I did that. That was me. That was me. I Lord of the Flies. I didn't even have to kill I didn't have to kill anybody. That was the best part. No one dies in my scenario. Everyone lives. Look at you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I think that's that's where you were given you were given the autonomy to do this and be like, you can take this over, you can make the calls, and like that's what made it successful. And a hero's journey.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I was gonna do that.
SPEAKER_03I just wanted to say that because you were you were called upon. This is what you always talk about. I thought
Patreon Discord Sharing And Closing
SPEAKER_03I'd I thought I'd say it. You know, the hero's journey.
SPEAKER_02You know where you can hear about the hero's journey? Where can you? Uh not on our Patreon because I haven't recorded it yet. But very soon on our Patreon, there will be a storytelling. We've said this for months now. You know, I'm off I'm off for like four days. I will record it and get it up this weekend. Um, there will be a join our Patreon for a dollar or ten dollars a month. You get access to exclusive features that are old and brand new features like the storytelling uh presentation. How to how did storytell and present and do things like we do? It's a it's a good class. I've taught many people with it, and I'm gonna teach you how to do it. So if it's not for our Patreon, you'll get access to that. It's 30 minutes, good content. Uh, you can also join our Discord. How do you do that, Michael?
SPEAKER_03Uh, there's many ways to join the Discord, but the best way is scroll down just wherever you are. I don't know where you are. Scroll on your computer, if you're on YouTube, if you're on your phone, what do you do? Scroll. You just scroll. Just remember those thumbs to work. Scroll. Don't scroll too far though. Hit the little description button, and in there, there's going to be a link tree. And it looks like a link, it's highlighted. You click on it, and it says join our Discord. And guess what? It's free. And I'll tell you what, there's a lot of collaboration happening inside of that chat. Now, is there any productive output? Sometimes. That's all I'll say. Sometimes we have seen people get jobs, we have seen people get promotions, we have seen people decide to leave their company many years and start something completely new. I would say that's collaboration for the betterment of us all.
SPEAKER_02I would disagree, but you know, that's that's what makes it great, is we're allowed to fight each other.
SPEAKER_03This and all.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes get it, get it in our Discord. That's where that's where all the good stuff happens. Um, hey, if you can't give us money and you can't join our Discord, the least you can do is share this with your friends, share the YouTube, share your podcasts, share a funny joke that we said, steal it. Take take a joke that we said on the podcast and tell it as if you told it yourself and then attribute it to us weeks later. Be like, hey, you know where I thought of that funny joke? Actually, I stole it from the corporate strategists podcast. It could have been an email. Do that for us, please. We would appreciate you forever if you did.
SPEAKER_03I think that's it. I think that's all share, subscribe. You can listen to us, you can watch us, you can follow us on Instagram. You can collaborate with us all inside of our social channels and on the Discord.
SPEAKER_02You can't collaborate with us, it's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. Per my definition, it won't happen.
SPEAKER_03Uh, and I think that is collaborations. Sometimes we game, sometimes we game on YouTube. So if you're not on YouTube, subscribe. Sometimes we play video games. I'd say that's collaboration.
SPEAKER_02That is definitely collaboration. That new roller coaster tycoon game, can't wait. Cannot wait.
SPEAKER_03I'm so pumped.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna absolutely stream that. I think it's roller coaster tycoon, like wondered something when it comes out. It looks phenomenal. Uh, we will be streaming that. And we need to just we need to get back to Michael. We need to stream again. We need to do more Patreon content where we just tell people things that we would never say on the podcast itself. We need to do all of those things, but uh, we won't do them while we're doing this because it's impossible to do two things at the same time. So we're gonna get to it. Uh, and please get out there and do the bare minimum. Give us money. Uh, but until you do that, my name's Anthony. And I'm Michael, and you're on mute. We will see.
