Corporate Strategy
Corporate Strategy
Working With People You Cannot Stand Part 1
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We trade stories about the coworkers who make progress feel impossible, from perfection-first gatekeepers to senior dependencies who weaponize silence. We walk through practical ways to escalate without drama, protect delivery, and recognize when leadership is the real problem.
• breaking down why some weeks feel like nonstop Wednesday
• defining levels of “can’t stand working with them” from annoying to unbearable
• sharing an MVP vs perfection conflict that nearly turns physical
• explaining why leadership often protects toxic high performers
• escalating with facts, notes, and low-emotion framing
• using managers as “heavy guns” to force decisions
• handling adjacent-team dependencies who outrank your chain
• spotting culture red flags that signal it is time to leave
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Cold Open And Mic Chaos
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to Clark Strategy, the podcast that could have been an email. I'm Bruce.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Michael.
SPEAKER_02It's great to be here. It didn't work. What didn't work? I said I'm Bruce, and you said your real name. Oh no.
SPEAKER_01I'm just stuck. Clark's dead. Clark is dead. I really thought that would have got you. Clark is no longer alive. It could also just be I don't listen to you.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I mean that. Alright, well, let's hold on.
SPEAKER_01Okay, this is foreshadowing. Are you just starting? Alright, now I'm listening. Now I'm listening. I'm listening. No, I'm here. I'm listening. Yep.
SPEAKER_02It's a good theme song. Welcome back to Corporate Strategy, the podcast. It could have been an email. I'm Michael.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Clark. Gosh dang it. You know, this goes right into the topic, but I'm not going to tell you what it is. But this is foreshadowing. Oh, really? This is foreshadowing.
SPEAKER_02I'm good at that. I'm great at that.
SPEAKER_01I don't know how we just did that and coordinated it, but I'll take it. It's going to be awesome. You're going to love it once we get there. You're welcome. Also, by the way, I'm checking the live stream and we are in fact live. Oh, that's good. For once. Yeah, for once we got it right.
SPEAKER_02We got it right. We got it right.
SPEAKER_01The people in the chat will have to let us know. If you can't hear us, if the volume's wrong, just let us know. Just let us know. We think we got it.
SPEAKER_02I'm still a little loud. You're still a little quiet. So I'm just going to take a proactive effort here. And always be louder.
SPEAKER_01If I'm screaming in your eardrums right now and you're listening to this, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything. You know, I think uh hold on. Let's get it's just. Yeah, yeah. Point it towards me. But you that's great.
SPEAKER_02Just make it your friend.
SPEAKER_01It's like I've done, like we should have done this, you know, 200 plus times, and like we'd be pros at this point, and we're just the worst. Make it your friend. I will. I'll move in nice close. Never look at me when you're a podcast.
SPEAKER_02I will only look over here. When uh actually you've got to learn the podcast lean. So this is this is next level, right? Towards you or towards me? So this is the uh for our our YouTube audience only, audio, audio people are gonna miss out on a pro tip. Because I'm giving away so many of these on the Patreon and on the streams. Really are. When you when you want to talk to your podcast co-host, you lean so the microphone can still oh hello there, Michael. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01What if I lean so far that I go out of frame of the video? Don't do that. So far away. Well, he's he's gone.
SPEAKER_02He lost his head.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I'm full of them.
Why Wednesday Breaks Everyone
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, well, how's your week gone? A little vibe check to start this off.
SPEAKER_02Uh vibe checkula week is uh oh my god, it's just uh never ending. Never ends. Yeah. It like it truly feels like every day could be Wednesday.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Which is the worst day of the week, by the way. You think so? I think so. Why do you think Wednesday's the worst and not a Monday? Wednesday's the worst. Well, Monday Monday you have the luxury of people who are recovering from the weekend. They might have been hung over Sunday night. So at least Monday mornings are pretty calm, pretty, pretty rational. People are getting started, they're they're getting things done, they're they're planning their weeks. Monday's good. I think the only problem with Monday is it it's you know the day after Sunday. And you've got the Sunday scaries, but I feel like Monday's a pretty good day. Tuesday is usually, for me at least, I have all my one-on-ones with people I have one-on-ones with on Tuesday.
SPEAKER_01One-on-one Tuesday.
SPEAKER_02One-on-one Tuesday. And it is the day where you start to get like, hey, there's there's a hot item we got to address this week. Yeah. Tuesday's the day you're fine, but those hot items. But Wednesday is the cumulation of everything, right? It's one-on-ones, it's team meetings, it's hot items, it's emergencies, it's fire drills. You're not getting anything done Wednesday. Yeah. But you need to get everything done on Wednesday. Thursday is the realization that you're not going to get anything done this week. And the depression sits in. And Friday is I give up. Yeah. I give up.
SPEAKER_01It's Friday. I love this synopsis of the week. I I also look at it as managing my energy. On Mondays, I'm high energy. The week is just getting started. My energy is at its peak. I'm not worn out yet. I'm recovered from the weekend. Yeah. And so Mondays always feel a little bit better because there's opportunity and hope for the week. But I do agree, once you get to Wednesday, it starts to be like, oh shit. I got 500 things due and it's already halfway through the week, and I was supposed to get all this done by Friday. I'm in trouble. But then you know it's funny because today's Thursday. It's end of day Thursday. I have a meeting after this podcast, actually. But it's end of day Thursday, and I kind of feel a sense of release, of release, relief, because Friday's tomorrow. And at this point, like I've already accepted that I'm not going to get half the things done I was hoping to. It's good acceptance. Do you feel that on Thursday? Do you feel relief that it's like, uh, tomorrow's Friday. No one's really going to be doing anything tomorrow anyway.
SPEAKER_02Well, let's step back to what I said a moment ago. I I described a normal week. Yeah. It's not normal by any means. It's it's nightmarish and I should probably be medicated.
SPEAKER_01I would say that's a normal week. I would wager for most people that's how the week goes. Whether they've analyzed it or not, you let us know.
SPEAKER_02I'm pointing at you. I'm talking to you through the microphone, you, the listener, the viewer. That's your week. My week is Wednesday every day.
SPEAKER_01Every day is Wednesday. That's brutal.
SPEAKER_02It's like every time you think a project's coming off the stack, a new project's going on the stack. It's a new nightmare. Unlocking. Every day. That's my week. Wednesday, Wednesday, Wednesday, Wednesday.
SPEAKER_01Like I'm looking at the clock. It's Wednesday, my dudes. You know, it's kind of funny. My wife and I were talking. We both had the days mixed up. She thought it was Tuesday on Tuesday. She thought it was Tuesday today. I thought it was Thursday on Tuesday. And so we just both were skipping Wednesday.
SPEAKER_02Wasn't that great for you?
SPEAKER_01We just didn't want Wednesday to happen. We knew it was happening, but I think our subconscious was like, don't process Wednesday because it's going to be the worst.
SPEAKER_02You're just in a state in your life where you don't have to deal with Wednesday anymore. Isn't that great? Isn't that wonderful?
SPEAKER_01This is like, you know, the stage the stages of grief once you get to acceptance that, you know, Wednesday doesn't really exist. Wednesday is every day. Every day is Wednesday. I don't feel that though. I think in my weeks I feel the Monday peak. Once I get to Wednesday, I feel awful. And then Thursday afternoon, I'm like, it's fine. You just said it.
SPEAKER_02Once you hit Wednesday, you're awful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I feel awful.
SPEAKER_02Every day of the week. I wake up in the morning, awful. I open a laptop. Wow. Somehow worse. Oh no. What's worse than awful? Atrocious. Read the first email. Oh my god. What's worse than atrocious? This this roller coaster is it's not a roller coaster. It's just a broken elevator.
SPEAKER_01For those of you who have been watching this show for a while when we played Roller Coaster Tycoon, this is kaboom. This is kaboom. This is kaboom before we tweaked the settings. And luckily, there were no fatalities in that incident. But yeah, it kind of went off the rails and we lost the vehicle that time. So that's how you feel every day. That's how I feel every day. That's how I feel every day. Okay. Well, good for you. Also, I kind of stink, I'm sorry. I don't smell anything, so you're fine. Okay. Could be me. Don't come calling. That's why I'm leaning the opposite way. The podcast lien is on purpose to get away from you. The podcast lien is to avoid the stuff. It's just to avoid the stink.
SPEAKER_02You can see the stink line. If you're watching the YouTube stream, you can see the stink lines coming off me.
Theme Park Smells And Banana Breath
SPEAKER_02I'm like picking up. How do we not have smeller vision yet? Dude. How does that not exist? Because we haven't invented it and sold it.
SPEAKER_01We have AI, but we can't smell what they're smelling in a video? No. It's really disappointing. No. If they can do it on what's that ride at Disney? If they can do it on that ride at Disney. If they can make the banana fart smell from the fart gun and the minions ride at Universal, why can't we smell it their video yet? You know, it was even before that. You know, Universal.
SPEAKER_02Here's some trivia for you, Mr. Universal. What was the first smell-based ride at Universal Studios?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_02It was a huge deal. It even made it into the advertisements. And I know, I know some of y'all know this, but let's see if Mr. Universal over here gets it.
SPEAKER_01Was it where the Minions Ride is now before Jimmy Neutron? Was it where the Minions Ride is now? The new Minions Ride. No, the old Minions Ride. That was Jimmy Neutron. You know when it went to that? No, it was not. It was not there. No.
SPEAKER_02This is a marketed feature.
SPEAKER_01Really? Yes. And the ride is no, it no longer exists.
SPEAKER_02The ride has been gone for over 10 years, at least. More than that, probably 20 years.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'm trying to think through the rides. In fact, many of their early rides had smell, believe it or not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it was a pretty it's a pretty cool feature. I mean, ET has a natural smell to it. Yes, which was invented for that ride. Was it really? Yeah. So I actually didn't know it was invented. I thought that was just the musk of the building. Steven Spielberg, why do I know all of this? You were a job.
SPEAKER_00You worked there.
SPEAKER_02I was there for almost a decade. You want to give me a job there? Uh Steven Spielberg wanted to make the forest smell like, what was it, Seattle, where that movie takes place? Yeah. So they actually created that smell and they pipe it through the vents. That's incredible. It's supposed to be pine. But it's not actually is E.T. smell.
SPEAKER_01It smells like a Macy's that's had water damage for about two decades.
SPEAKER_02It smells like E.T. And I think what I think what happened was the original, if I had to guess, because I don't know this for a fact, the original scent was probably created by a scent maker who was like, yeah, this smells like Seattle Pines. Yeah. And maybe, maybe the Seattle Pines do smell this way. I've never been. We needed someone from Seattle to go on the E.T. ride while it still exists and confirm or deny whether or not that smell is accurate. But as time went on, and smells obviously are better. You can go to the you know store and buy a pine-scented candle and you can smell pine. Uh I don't I don't know if the rock I think they like this this is nostalgic in a way. Oh yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Smell of E.T. 100% takes you back. I have friends who have tried to buy candles for this smell and have failed. They said it doesn't smell like it. Right. They've made I've seen them and it doesn't smell like it.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that crazy? It is.
SPEAKER_01It's such a unique smell.
SPEAKER_02So, okay, back to the question. Well, I mean, ET was an opener for what was the marketed feature?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Back to the Future was there. That doesn't have smell. Jaws.
SPEAKER_02Jaws has smell.
SPEAKER_01Twister.
SPEAKER_02Jaws actually has smell.
SPEAKER_01Does it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02From what scene? When the uh when the shotgun grenade launcher, the fish, and he comes up, it smells like roasting fish. Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01That's a smell. I don't remember that one. That's not the marketed smell. How am I still missing this? I'm trying to think what was there. Terminator was there, which is no longer there.
SPEAKER_02That was this is before Terminator. Yeah, before Terminator is there. Opening it up. Opening ride at Universal Studios. I can't remember. The big ticket item. I'm just blanking. You've never been on it. How do you I mean? Because I don't think you were alive. I think you were not an idea yet. Or it hit me. What is it? It's King Kong. The banana breath. Oh. Big marketed feature. They're like, you get so close, you can smell his banana breath. It was on the commercials, it was on like the marquees. It was a huge thing. And it's like, true. When you were on that uh in the original Universal Studios King Confrontation, great name, by the way. That is a great name. You you rode through what's it? Um the Safari or the The Rainforest? No, you're riding through a it's a suspended gondola? Gondola. Yes, thank you. If you're on a suspended gondola going through New York City as King Kong ravages it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Ginormous animatronic ape is visible at multiple parts of the ride. There's one part where you get and I mean this is Big Kong. Yeah right? This is Big Kong. Have you ridden the New Kong ride, by the way? I have ridden the New Kong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that giant one that's right in your face.
SPEAKER_02They should have brought. Oh, really? This is bad. That one's massive. I mean, that one, that's Peter Jackson King Kong, who is smaller. We're talking 1980s, I forget the director, King Kong. They're going for Big Kong, like the one who fights Godzilla now. Yeah. That's the big so his face is literally the size of a room. And he's like, and you smell bananas, and it's the funniest thing I remember. That's also clear. The banana breath. It was marketed. That's incredible. Yeah. And that's your Universal Studios fun fact from someone who never worked there. Meanwhile. Great job. Meanwhile, I was there for a decade. I had no idea.
SPEAKER_01No idea. Just you know, living the theme. You know, contrary to what you would think, I was there for almost a decade, and I'm not a big theme park person. I think I was burnt out as a kid. I went to SeaWorld all the time, went to Universe all the time. And like I think I was burnt out from having to be there like all day long. Yeah. Because we didn't have a lot of money. So like when we went, it was an event. And we were there from like opening all the way till close. And I think it just burnt me out. And so when I worked there, it was awesome working there, but like I didn't want to go for hours at a time. Like, I'll go for like three hours. Yeah. And then I'm done with the theme park for a while.
SPEAKER_02I think, and this is not an insult to you or the parks, and uh again, Universal hired me. Um, I think that sadly, as Universal became, because Universal was kind of the anti-Disney early days. It was very much the Rolling Stones of the Beatles. Right. Right? Like Disney is for everyone. Universal is for movie fans. If you think about their original Ride the movies, ride the movies. That was their slogan. There was their tagline. And the original Universal experience, you had Ghostbusters, you had Back to the Future, Jaws, Earthquake. Yep, Earthquake was another one I was thinking of. Confrontation. You also had the Psycho House, the horror and makeup show. Like it was all a love letter to Universal Studios Pictures. Yeah. They had like all kinds of television and movies throughout the decades, and it really created a simulated backlot experience. Yeah. As you go through the different parts of the park, they're all like, hey, this is New York, this is Hollywood, this is the brown derby. Everyone knows the brown derby. But it was made for movie fans. Right. And Universal has become more of a I would say least or common denominator when it comes to what they're putting out there. Minions, Harry Potter, like it's it's much more chasing the child than the fan. Right? Like it's big fandoms versus movies. Yeah. Right? The magic of cinema, being able to ride the movies. Uh when I'm on the Harry Potter rides, they're very interesting and fun. Right. Because they're well-designed rides, but I don't feel like I'm riding a movie anymore. Yeah. It feels like I'm on Harry Potter. Yeah. You're in. You gave up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I never thought of it like that, but I I do agree because it did start as the backlot club. It's like really what it was. Like you go and you take the tram through the back lot, and that was started in Hollywood, and then it turned into a theme park over there, and then we brought it to Orlando. So yeah. Now it is much more you focus on the experience. Like you want to be integrated with the brand. Yeah. With whatever the movie is. It's not like this is how they shot it and this is the cinema behind it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think the mummy is probably the last like real Universal Studios ride because it is about filming a movie. Right. But the movie comes to life. Yeah. Same way Jaws, I don't know if you remember the Jaws. Oh, yeah, I remember Jaws. They're talking about, oh, this is where Chief Brody shot the shark 70 years ago. And they're like, you're part of the movie, as opposed to being part of the world the movie inhabits. Yeah. And it's like it's a trade-off, right? Like it clearly works. Yeah. Park makes tons of money. But it's just it's not for me anymore, which is sad. Fair enough. Disney's not for you either. Well, and I think that's what I love about Epic Universe's um monsters exhibit specifically, is it it feels very reverent to those 1950s black and white horror movies specifically and all of the hallmarks of that.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's a cool thing.
SPEAKER_01I have a great story for you for Jaws. Oh yeah? When I was younger, this is this is going to sound so privileged because it was. Back before Universal got really big, my friend's parents worked at a law firm and they rented out the park for an evening. And we got to go with like a small group of people and just ride whatever we wanted, like a hundred times. And his dad was a grumpy old man. And we rode the Jaws ride. And you don't get wet. You know this. No. You don't get wet on the Jaws, right? You get a little sprinkle from when he shoots the grenade launch in the water. It does a little splash. For whatever reason, I don't know if a wave hit or whatever. They shoot, they do take out the shotgun, the shark comes up, they shoot it. It just absolutely soaks him. This grumpy old man. And we're just sitting there dying laughing because you never get wet on this round. And the fact that the grumpy old man was so angrily, like just soaking wet, was the most incredible experience ever. What was his uh demeanor afterwards? Oh, he was so pissed. I bet. He just was so mad. He's like, You said we never get wet. He actually was like almost yelling at the person. He's like, I sat here. You said we weren't gonna get wet. We just got soaked. It was hilarious.
SPEAKER_02How hot was it?
SPEAKER_01That day was probably pretty hot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was gonna say, like, you get a little wet on the jaws. Like, it's it's the closest thing you get to air conditioning in Universal Studios, like, thank you. Thank you for the water.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm dying. It just was a thing of beauty that it just happened directly to this person. You're like, nothing could go better that day. And he was getting even more mad because we were laughing so hard at the situation. Some people just can't. It was amazing. I mean, sad, but some people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry to hear about your week. Oh, that's okay. Hey, you know what I think it's time for? Uh,
Japanese Kit Kats And Frosty Truths
SPEAKER_02what's that? Kit Kat break! Oh, it's a Kit Kat break. So uh my wife uh secured us some Nestle Kito Katos from Japan. Uh and we've got strawberry and machan.
SPEAKER_01These are great. Whenever I go to Japan, I always used to get these when I when I was working for Universal, would go to Japan relatively frequently, a couple times a year, and I would always bring back weird Kit Kats. And I've had both of these. I think the weirdest one I've had is wasabi. You can do it. Wasabi flavor. Yeah, yeah. I specifically got it for you because I knew you would enjoy it. I loved it. It was so weird. There's another really it's not as potent as you'd think it would be.
SPEAKER_02It keeps the flavor without like affecting the deliciousness of a Kit Kat mark.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there was peppermint. Uh, we also tried like sweet potato, which was pretty good. And then there was one that was really bad. It kind of tasted like soap. I can't remember which one it was. You want to see something psychotic? Yeah, let's see it. Don't you don't not on video. You just got canceled. We have to cancel the whole show now. Why would you do that? Okay, for everybody who's not watching, if you're not watching, get on YouTube and watch. He just bit the Kit Kat straight in half across the two. He didn't just break it in half to give me a break, give me a piece of that Kit Kat bar. He just bought bit both right down the middle. You savage. And that's what you get. This is karma coming back to you. Why would you do that? You're enjoying this way too much. You know what? You're not allowed to eat another one of these. I'm moving these away from you. You're canceled. Give me your your review of the strawberry Kit Kat.
SPEAKER_02Uh delicious. Better than um better than a real Kit Kat, in all honesty.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm not a biggest, I'm not the biggest chocolate fan.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's true. I once I went to Belgium and had Belgian chocolate, it kind of ruined everything for me. That's true too. I love Belgian chocolate. Did you know speaking of chocolate? We're never gonna get to the topic. Uh we have a hard stop. You uh with the choice. Did you know the Wendy's Frosty is not chocolate? What do you mean? The chocolate frosty isn't chocolate? It's not chocolate ice cream. Don't it's vanilla ice cream with chocolate fudge in it.
SPEAKER_01And they mix it. Doesn't that just make it chocolate ice cream?
SPEAKER_02No!
SPEAKER_01I mean it is different.
SPEAKER_02It is different.
SPEAKER_01That's weird.
SPEAKER_02That's the flavor profile. I mean, but it's still good. I I found this out because I went to Shake Shack. My whack. And they had this, they're like black and white milkshake. I'm like, that sounds kind of fun. It's a vanilla milkshake with chocolate fudge in it. Interesting. So we order it. I take a sip, I'm like, oh my gosh. I know exactly what this is. I give it to her. She's like, oh my gosh. It's a frosty. Both you guys looked at each other and you felt the same way. Instant recognition of the flavor profile. Wendy's frosties. Huh.
SPEAKER_01Great for dipping French fries. I was actually, I was gonna ask you, this is controversial. Not at all. I think at Wendy's it's actually appropriate. It's part of the meal. But dipping, taking the fries, getting the chocolate frosty, and dipping it in. It's so good. It's so good. Well, it's only a Wendy's thing. I don't think I do this anywhere else. I will say the fries gotta be salty. Yeah, they actually have to have the sweet and salty contrast.
SPEAKER_02If if the fries are salty, you need to salt it up. Yeah. Because sometimes, like I don't know why. Some of these fast food chains, like they have no consistency with their salt. Yeah, it is really weird. Even McDonald's. Yeah, sometimes you'll get a batch and you're just like, where's the salt? Yeah. It's just like fried potato. You know, I did not buy, I don't want I want the salt. The salt is like 90% of the experience. 100%. Yeah. So it's gotta be salty if you're gonna dunk it the chocolate. Yeah. Otherwise, it's just gonna taste like mush. Don't do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, and for whatever reason, like it only works at Wendy's, I'm telling you. You try it anywhere else, it just doesn't work. I've tried dipping in a milkshake someplace else. I'm like, nope, that ain't it. McDonald's fry and um ice cream or a milkshake? No. You're ruining two things at the same time. Yeah, pets. Right. Because both those things are things of beauty.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Separately. Separately. Separately. But not together. Not together. No. Ever. No. Unless you're at Wendy's. Agree. Alright, cool. Cool. You want to do uh topic today?
The Real Problem With Coworkers
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you want to talk about something? I've got beef to pick with you. What the heck, dude? You're just so difficult to work with sometimes. I know, but that's part of the that's part of the thrill. This is what I was thinking earlier today. We all have it. We all know it. We've all been there. You work with people you don't like. Oh bro, I've worked with everyone I don't like. I mean that's I have had straight up in-person, almost like physical altercations. And I'm a very like, I think people who know me would be shocked at this. Because I'm a very like okay, easygoing, not get heated. Like I've been commended by my team for like just being level-headed through everything.
SPEAKER_02No, I remember one time when you wrapped your hands around my neck and started to squeeze. And I said, Is this a joke? And then I couldn't breathe. And I woke up two hours later.
SPEAKER_01And that was it.
SPEAKER_02That was it.
SPEAKER_01You don't even know if you exist anymore. But sure. This might be heaven.
SPEAKER_02I was shocked.
SPEAKER_01I thought it was so easy going. But I have actually had an altercation with someone that almost turned like physical. Uh-huh. It was very, very crazy. And so today. Would you have beat him? Yeah, I would have beat him. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I was young and he was old. Well, that's so that I mean that helps.
SPEAKER_02Okay, let's not let's not have a ringing endorsement of confidence. Yeah, I could beat up an old guy.
SPEAKER_01I I don't know that I could anymore because I'm old now. But yeah, but back then, yes. So I wanted to talk about that with you. How do you work with people you don't like when you have to work with them? It's so hard because I I I'm not joking.
SPEAKER_02I hate everybody. And it it really is difficult. Um, especially because there's levels of hatred. Yeah, right? Like there is I don't want to work with you, but it's fine. And then there is I don't want to work with you and it's not fine. Yep. It actually pains me to have to work with you.
SPEAKER_01Are those the only two levels? I was thinking about that of like if you're forced to work with somebody, what are the different Levels of you do not like working with them. And there's one where it's like, I can't tolerate you. Yeah. But I have to work with you. And so how do you tackle that situation versus I can tolerate you, but I hate working with you? And the other one of like, I just don't want to work with you because, and I don't know if this is any different, but it's that person like you just have to work with, but they don't actually do anything. So you don't really care. Even though you don't like working with them, it's like whatever. I don't actually have to do anything with you. You're just there. You exist.
SPEAKER_02There's actually it's so interesting you asked that question. Oh boy. Because there's a before and after. The before, when I was when I was lower on the totem pole, and there is the I don't like you, and I don't like working with you, and I don't want to work with you, and I'm gonna do everything to avoid it.
SPEAKER_01So this is the most extreme, the worst case.
SPEAKER_02The worst case scenario, there's nothing you can do. There's really nothing you can do. When you're on the bottom of the totem pole and you said you've got to work with that person, you've got to work with that person. That is your cross to bear. There's no getting around it. If you complain about it, they're gonna look at you and be like, Why is this person being difficult? Just go do it. I mean, the truth of the matter is that guy you don't like working with, and let's be real, it's probably a guy. Uh that guy you're working with, no one likes that guy. I promise you. You go into a room with one of your peers and say, Hey, do you like working with that guy? Like, they'll be like, Hell no. It's the worst. I thought about putting poison in his food in the fridge. No one likes that guy, but it's your turn to deal with it when you deal with it, sadly.
SPEAKER_01It's really tough. I've been in this situation a few times. And the reality is you are stuck working with them because you are tied together on a project, you're working on something similar, and they aren't going to move the person. Yeah. And I don't know if you've seen this too. In this scenario where it is somebody that's critical that you have to work with, usually the person is pretty intelligent. Yes. And they're usually good at what they do, but they just suck as a person.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's, I think part of the difficulty is also gonna come from the fact that, and this has just been my experience, these kind of people, generally, you will ask them for something and they will not give it to you. Yeah. Even though they're intelligent, they can't do it, right? So, hey, can you give me these requirements in writing? Can you email me these requirements? And what they're gonna do is they're gonna show up to your office, they're gonna get on a Teams call, and they're gonna talk about anything except those requirements until you want to strangle yourself. You want to wrap your own hands around your neck and squeeze until the life leaves your eyes. And that's the frustration is these people make work difficult or impossible. Yeah. So you end up taking, we talked about this last week in the the college project, you end up taking on to work and responsibility yourself because this person's insufferable to work with. Yep.
SPEAKER_01I this actually brings me to
MVP Versus Perfection Storytime
SPEAKER_01that story. Let's go to story time. Story time. Let's take it years ago, back to probably 2016, so 10 years ago. That's crazy. No, it might have been earlier. No, it was earlier. It was 2015, 2016, so over 10 years ago. Beginning of the end, yeah. I was working in a capacity where this person was like the design lead, and I was the engineering lead on a project. And we had to work together. There was no ifs, ands, or buts. Like they were the design lead, I was the engineering lead. So we were forced to work together. And we just didn't see eye to eye on MVP and getting value out to customers. He had a strong belief that we have to build something that's perfect, that's gonna hit it right on the head for the customers. They're gonna love it out the gate. I was of the belief, let's just get it out, see if they actually use it, see if they're valuable, because we will learn a lot just from that. Yeah. And we just didn't see eye to eye. And leadership was not willing to step in between this. They were just like, yeah, we'll let you guys figure it out. And that was one issue. I think leadership does have to intervene to set the direction if especially two of the critical cogs on the wheel need to be aligned. And so we would just get on the calls and I would be pushing to be like, hey, we're gonna wrap up engineering on this. Like, let's get it live, let's learn, let's build, test, learn, and we'll do this iteratively. And he was just like, no, no, no, we're not ready. Like we have to finish this design, we got to revamp this component of it so it actually matches the design system better. We have to redo this so that way, you know, it's not duplicate same components in the design system, it's just one sole component. And I was like, listen, none of that matters to the end user. So like, let's just push it out. And so it came to a head at some point, and I was visiting the office and I walk in, I got in early because I traveled in that morning. I walk into the office at 7 a.m. Guess who's sitting right there in the dark, all by themselves? In your office? It was in our like shared communal space. Right. But I was visiting this office and I figured no one would be there. I was just gonna get some work done. And it was just us two, and I was like, oh no, it's about to go down. And we just started getting into it. We're like, all right, I guess this is gonna hash. You know that moment when you just know we're gonna throw down everything and we're gonna figure this out right now. The adrenaline spikes. Yeah, the adrenaline spikes, you feel the heat coming off your head, you're just like, it's go time. Like, we have to do this. There's no sitting cordial in this room and figuring this out. And basically, we sat there for a good 30 minutes arguing about why one point was better than the other, and we agreed to disagree. And then we sat after 30 minutes for the next hour and a half before anybody got there, back to back, him at his desk, me at my desk, and we just didn't speak to each other after that. That's great. But it got to such a point that like I was like at one point, like one of us is gonna, you know, we're gonna punch, we're gonna do something. But fortunately, like we both were strained, we just were like, we're not gonna get anywhere. Like, stop, we're done. And we just turned around and that was it. And the only escape from that situation is this person ended up leaving the company about a month later because leadership decided to pick a side and they said, no, it's better we launch this than get it perfect. We need to launch. And that person saw that as even though they were they were really great at their job, by the way. I'll I'll state that. This person was actually brilliant. But leadership made a decision, they kind of sided with our side of just build, measure, learn, get it out there. It's more important than getting it perfect. And they didn't like that decision and they decided to leave the company. And that's a positive outcome. It is a very positive outcome that it didn't get no physical alquication, one, just a blessing, because that would have been bad.
SPEAKER_02You managed to remove someone who was likely a toxic employee because leadership got involved. Yep. Sadly, that's not a common occurrence.
Escalation Without Looking Emotional
SPEAKER_02No, not at all. Because generally, these people who are very toxic that you don't want to work with, like I said before, no one wants to work with these people. For whatever reason, leadership loves them. That does seem to be the case. Leadership loves them. Oddly.
SPEAKER_01Like, how does that happen? I don't understand that at all.
SPEAKER_02I think a lot of it's actually nepotism. I think a lot of them they hang around or they come from a previous relationship with leadership where they were successful in a previous role, and leadership only sees that that that's 20-something years ago. Oh, they they could never do wrong. They were so great 20-something years ago. It's like, yeah, that's before they had a drinking problem. Like, we're not in the same land anymore. Uh and sadly, it's I see it. It's so often, it's just it's that nepotism preserves bad people. They hang around and they cause other people to leave.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think that's that's the main takeaway, is unfortunately in this situation. Someone's gonna leave. Someone leaves. And you have a couple choices. You can sit there and just take it. You can quite quit, unfortunately. Like you just step away from the scenario and you just be like, whatever. Like you can give in. Unfortunately, this person doesn't give in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they always want their way, they have to see it their way. They're gonna fight you on everything. So you can give up, or you can try to, you know, fight the good fight and try to like go against this person, protect everyone else, which is the thing that I did because I'm like, no one else has the energy to do this. I'm gonna do this for the team. And but that is, it could go 50-50 because if they end up siding with that person, the leadership I mean by they, then you might be like, well, now I have to leave. I failed my mission, I failed my team, like I have no choice. And so it's a risk. But I think usually in those situations, if you are strong enough and willing enough to do it, I think you will be victorious and on the winning side. But it's 50-50.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you know, I talked about there's there's two sides of this earlier, right? There's the when you're low on the totem pole, yeah. There's nothing you can do, you just have to work with them. There is the alternative. When you are higher up in the totem pole, yeah, and you become a manager, a middle manager, executive manager, then you can decide, I'm not going to interface with this person. And you can get away with that. Yeah, right? You can delegate, or you can simply say, like, we don't need to work together.
SPEAKER_01Just don't put them in anything, don't include them, don't include them. Leave them out of all meetings.
SPEAKER_02You can lead them out, and then when they get mad and go complain, it's it comes back to you as like, hey, they're they're complaining. It's like, yeah, well, I gave them the opportunity and they chose not to. Like, when you start to have some influence, then you can push back and use a little bit of mental jujitsu to keep them at arm's length and keep them at bay. Um, there will still be conflicts and confrontations, but I have found my ability to deal with these kind of people has lessened or I don't I don't have to deal with them as much as I have moved into higher level roles just because of the nature of like even though they might be higher than me or at the same level as me, I I'm too important to deal with you right now. Right.
SPEAKER_01Like that's it's it sounds so arrogant, but it's true. Right. Unfortunately, it's true. Like there is a point where it's like you don't impact things enough, and I don't care enough to work with you. I'll work with someone who's half as fast as you because they're easy to work with rather than have to work with you and get this done faster.
SPEAKER_02The kind of business level deliverables I'm working on are far more important than whatever the nonsense you are talking to me about is right now. So I'm going to move on without you. And no one's going to tell me to stop. Right. And that's that's one of the advantages of getting further up. The problem is when you're lower the totem pole, you have none of those luxuries.
SPEAKER_01I think you can be viewed as insubordinate. Right. All you can do in this scenario, if you are on the same level as this person, is raise concerns in a in the least emotional way you possibly can. Bring facts, bring things that you're seeing and observations to your manager and let them know, hey, this person, I've had a really hard time working with them, and I've gotten some feedback from others. Like, how would you go to your manager and say, how would you interact with them? And how have you worked with them in the past? And that just puts it right back on them. And it shows you as I'm trying to be better. I've talked to them directly. I'm trying to get feedback on how I can improve. And then you come back to them and say, hey, I'm really trying to push this deliverable, but this person keeps on just stepping in and stopping. But you know, you and I are aligned on this, right? And like if they get on board, then they can help get that person on board as well. So that's the best way to do it.
SPEAKER_02There's another play as well, and it's not going to help you move up in the ladder, but it will help you deal with the solution, which is like I said earlier, chances are everyone hates working with this person. And you can you can go to your manager and say, Hey, I'm struggling to get a resolution on this. Would you mind uh having a conversation with this individual and uh getting a resolution just based on this information? It doesn't matter which way we go, I just can't get them to commit to anything. And I think they might listen to you instead of me. When you do that, I mean it doesn't really help your brand at all because it you look like a failure, which is fine. Sometimes we all are, but it does get it out of your box and into their box. And I promise you this, they don't want to do it. Yeah, they do not want to do it. Because I've had this happen to me, and I'm like, I don't want to do this, but now I've got to, and the resolution is probably gonna be we're just gonna move on. We're gonna we're gonna move on without them. Yeah, because no one likes working with these people at the end of the day. Yeah, so if you can level up the lob, lob it upwards, let someone else deal with it, they're probably gonna dance around it too, because these people are despised.
SPEAKER_01And I think the the plus one to that that idea too is just bringing it for them and be like, hey, I'm trying to make a decision on this. We're really just not seeing eye to eye. I could use your perspective. Do you mind joining the meeting? Typically, people that are toxic like this, once you invite the upper level person, they tone down and get on board real quick. They do. Like when there's facts presented, and they usually this person, it's an ego problem. Usually it's something that they want it their way and they're not willing to concede, even if all facts are saying you should do it another way, or they just don't like you. And for that reason, they're going to fight you. When you bring in a manager, that respect comes out and they're like, Oh, yeah, absolutely, I'm on board. And you're like, We've had 17 meeting meetings on this, Rick. How about we name drop? This actually was not the name of the person from my story. But you say, you know, we've had 17 meetings on this, and now you're on board. Awkward. Sometimes you do have to get your manager involved to see that, to be involved. The downside to doing this approach is now they look at you and they're like, why was that so hard? I've had this happen. And they're like, and I've I've had this uh one-on-one uh before with a leader of mine, and they're like, Hey, we joined the meeting and we got to the resolution. Why have you been struggling to make a decision on this for weeks? And that's where the honesty comes out to. And it's just like, hey, to be honest with you, I've had eight meetings on this. I'll show you the notes, I'll show you the transcripts. Like, this person is just making it really difficult. But the second you stepped in, we made a decision. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the best ways you can do it is bring in the heavy guns. And then once they see it firsthand, you get a chance to explain it, you get a chance to share your opinion. Now, what does the manager do? Typically, they'll go around and start asking all the other people on the team, hey, do you feel the same way about this person? So that that's my only plus one to yours is just tell your manager to join you. Also, if you're a manager, real talk. Oh, get this person off the team. Even if you're if your culture is not to fire people in your company, you have to move this person. If trusted people on your team are telling you we cannot work with this person, you will then lose all the trusted people you like and you built this team on because you invited a cancer to your team. You've got to get them off.
SPEAKER_02I and I mean I'm sure it happens. I I generally think these kind of toxic people are not on your team. They're usually on a team adjacent to you or a team you need to work with. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Because you have no direct control over them.
SPEAKER_02Just by nature of the way hiring works, and by nature of the way the teams work, generally your manager is gonna hire like-minded people. And yes, you could have a bad manager, like many of us have, and they could be like, ah, I'll just hire whoever I want. And you get like a good one and a bad one, and a great one and a terrible one. So, like, that's possible. But in my experience, most of the more toxic people I've worked with were not on my team, because at least my manager knew kind of the vibe and who to get, unless they were inherited, right? It was usually someone on an adjacent team, either in an adjacent org or upper level. Yeah. Coming down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's kind of the second scenario. Maybe this is the one we end on, and then we talk about the the third one on the next episode. We'll do some fun stuff too. Because we're we're short on time, but this is
When A Dependency Turns Toxic
SPEAKER_01an important one. How do you deal with that person that is someone that's a dependency? They're not a direct contribute contributor to you, but you rely on them for something. Right. And your team, your leader, has no jurisdiction over this person. Right. This is arguably way worse.
SPEAKER_02It is way worse.
SPEAKER_01Because they're not day-to-day causing you hell, but to get anything actually done, they're causing you hell, and there's nothing you can do about it.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, I've been going through product manager training, and one of the things that uh the pragmatic product management training I've been going through, I'll just give them a shout-out, why not? It's great training. Uh, they they you they use this four-box quadrant of level of importance, level of impact. Yes. LOE versus L O I. Right. Yeah. And you know, there is if they're highly important but low impact, keep informed, right? You just, hey, here's what the project's up to. Just giving you an email update. But if they're high importance, high impact, manage closely, right? Like keep them involved in the process. The worst possible situation. High importance, high impact, sucky human beings. Yeah. Like that is, because now you have to manage them closely. And good lord, you are going to want to quit your job every day, and there's very little you can do about it because they are probably higher than you, or they're in a more respected position than you. Yep. And it is your job to manage this maniac.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Been there too.
SPEAKER_02Uh I like.
SPEAKER_01I sound like a controversial person, but but I do have another story for this.
SPEAKER_02But please, I might enjoy another Kit Kat.
SPEAKER_01No, you do. Take care. I eat it like a normal human being, please. Do not bite it down the middle. If you do that again, people are gonna have a problem. People in the chat are gonna are gonna they're gonna cancel you. I don't know what they're gonna do. It's not good. I want to hear your story.
SPEAKER_02I want to hear it. I want to hear your story.
SPEAKER_01I can't look at you when you do this. So to lay the context of this, we were working on a project. Again, it was it's actually the same project, just different, different time periods. And this sounds so problematic. Don't you do it. Stop. Oh, that's the worst. Why would you ever watching this is wondering why are you the way that you are?
SPEAKER_02I'm that toxic employee.
SPEAKER_01You really are. This is the worst kind of person. It's me. If I was your manager, I'd move you off this team right now.
SPEAKER_02And then you should fire me too.
SPEAKER_01So it was actually a very the same project, but uh we were trying to push something forward, and this person, I was setting up meetings, I was having like lunch and learns to explain the product to everybody, and they emailed me and they just said stop. That's all I got. This person's a senior principal architect, and there's like stop. And I was like, What? And they're like, Don't schedule this meeting. And I'm like, why? This was in front of everybody, like everybody in the Slack channel, everybody. And I was like, why? And they were like, You're going about it the wrong way. We're gonna do it differently. And I was just like, excuse me, and but but it was the worst because I was highly dependent on them to guide some of the integrating pieces of this project, and they were so more, so much more senior than I was. They were there for 25 years, and they basically just stepped in and said that. And there was nothing I could do. Even my manager was outranked by this person, and so it was just like, all right, well, I guess I'm stopping. And so the only thing I could do in that situation is try to meet with them and understand like what the situation was. Like, let's talk about this. Did you? But they wouldn't give me the time of day to actually do it. And so, like, I my manager saw this. I'm like, I don't know what to do in this situation. My blood is actively starting to boil. I literally was like, I went to my manager and they were just like, Yeah, I'm sorry about that. That's that, that's this person. And I was like, What do you mean that's this person? And like that, that was the telling sign to me, like right there culturally, we had something wrong with this. Thanks, thanks for that. That's that's what you get. That's karma. Hearing this story. Like, just think about how toxic that is for everybody who just witnessed that. Like, someone that's high performing, and I'm not trying to toot my horn, but this was what I was told in the path that I was on. It's like someone that's high performing, trying to do the right thing, trying to get people figured out, and for someone that senior just to come in and be like, stop in front of everybody, that's demotivating. It looks like uh, you know, an attack from up top to the whole team who's now scared to do anything like this in the future. It made me want to just stop. Like, why am I even bothering? So, man, this it was tough.
SPEAKER_02This one is tough because this individual, I don't know who I don't I don't know who you're referring to. I never met that. That's what you're after.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you've absolutely met this person. Oh, good. Um there was never a confrontation. We never had you weren't allowed to. Yeah, exactly. You couldn't even meet with them. Like, I don't even know how that situation would go. It basically was just that that reaction just like stopped me on my track.
SPEAKER_02Do you feel that this person might be one of the reasons that this company no longer exists today? Ooh. I don't know if they're trying to come were they were they a compounding cut in the mini thousand paper cuts to why this company no longer exists, big corp.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, no, I don't think it was that critical. Okay. I think I know what you're talking about. I don't think it was that. Okay. But I'll tell you the math for you. Okay. All right.
SPEAKER_02Well, I it's I mean, even still, the to your point, the biggest problem is now everyone looks at this person's like, well, they're just a butthole. Yeah, right. Just being a bully. Why? Well, I'm I'm demotivated. I'm not gonna work anymore. Because what's the point? Um you just you just killed the momentum, you killed the morale, and you killed the confidence and the the safety and security of the employees. Effectively, you've just ruined an entire batch of employees that you'll probably never get out of the mire as long as you are there. Yep. Right? Like, that is the worst possible thing someone can do. I 100% agree with you. And that's really it.
SPEAKER_01It was so frustrating. There's nothing you can do about it. And I was left, like, even my own manager was like, Yeah, I'm sorry, that's this person. And I'm like, and I didn't realize it because I was pretty naive back then, but now looking at it, I'm like, that is the worst answer you can give as a manager.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01As a manager, you should be stepping and be like, hey, hold on a second. Like, let's meet and talk about this. I think they're doing the right thing, I support them. If you're not on board, we'll have a meeting, we'll figure this out.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think that's the thing, right? When when these I don't even know what we gonna we're gonna call these people, but like it's it's beyond toxic, right? They're malicious. They are they're almost like malicious agitators, right? Like when you have a malicious agitator, someone who is actively trying to hurt the productive nature of the company, to stop productivity, but also to be mean about it, because they're like they're agitating you and the people around you in some way, shape, or form. Management needs to get involved. Yeah, and it needs to continue to escalate until it is above them coming down from the top. Yep. And you need to bring in clear data. And if your management can't do that, or if the top decides we're not going to get invested in that, you gotta get out of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's an exit. That's a that's an early indicator for that. Very clear exit. The company sucks. Yeah. That's that's the earliest indicator. If they're not willing to do anything to help you in that situation. Now, if you're wrong, truly, and this person is like, like you could be you could be Rick in this situation.
SPEAKER_02Well, you could be Rick.
SPEAKER_01You could be the worst person ever. You could. But they should still meet with you and tell you that you suck. They should absolutely meet with you and pull you aside and be like, hold on a second. Let's talk about this.
SPEAKER_02Most of the toxic people I've worked with were at least willing to get on the phone and make me feel bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, like they are willing to berate me and make me feel terrible and not want to work. Yeah. But hey, they got on the phone and did that. Right. Like this person saying no and ignoring you, that is insane.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's actually insane.
SPEAKER_01I immediately think I should revise what I just said because if I was the negative person in this scenario, still the way that they responded is wrong. Correct. If I'm Rick in this scenario, they still shouldn't have done that. No. And a reasonable human being wouldn't have done that. It's a coachable moment. Yeah, it's an absolute. If you're a manager, you could just pull them aside and be like, hey, how about we slow down in this meeting a little bit? Like, what exactly are you trying to get out of it? Like, let's talk about your objectives. What do you want? What's your motivations? And like, that would be much more productive than just in front of everybody saying stop.
SPEAKER_02I live for moments like these because I can come in and say, hey, we need to meet. Uh like on that meeting or in that Slack chat just now, when you said stop and then you refuse to meet afterwards, that's not acceptable. Yep. In fact, that's gonna get you in trouble. You need to not do that moving forward. And if you want someone to stop something, that's totally fine. You can say stop, provide a reason. Yep. One word answer is not an answer. It's just an it's an aggravated assault of language. Right. Uh provide reason and then meet with them afterwards and explain it. Like if I see this again, we're gonna have an issue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. This is a coachable moment. Absolutely. This is when you pull them aside and you say, Hey, this person's just trying to do the right thing. Yeah. They're young, they're trying to help. Like, you need to mentor this person if you are this high in the company. Like you've got to figure this out and you've got to sit with them. You've got to help mentor them.
SPEAKER_02I would also probably suggest, like, hey, you should go in that chat and apologize to everybody. Yeah, absolutely. Just make a quick apology. Say, hey, uh, sorry, I came off the wrong way. I didn't mean to. Yeah. Uh we'll we'll get on the call and I'll explain to you the logic behind everything, and it'll all make sense. I promise it'll be okay. 100%. But yeah, yeah. It was tough. If that doesn't happen, get the heck out of there.
SPEAKER_01You're gonna be in trouble. And that's why I ultimately left the company. One of the reasons. Right. Yeah, hey. Happens. Happens. Well, we're gonna have to do a part two because we're out
Patreon Plug And Closing Thoughts
SPEAKER_01of time. But I think we have two more kind of scenarios of the person that you hate, but you don't really have to interact with them at all. And then the person that you hate that you just kind of ignore and push to the side because they're not impactful. Yeah. And those might be interesting to talk about next.
SPEAKER_02Agree. Agree. Well, uh, sadly, Michael's got a hard stop. I wanted to stay and talk for another hour, but he's But it's my fault. It's it's really his fault exclusively, not mine. I'm definitely not going and seeing gorillas tonight, so that's not happening. Uh hey, thanks as always for the pod. I do want to give myself a shout-out, if you don't mind. No, please. Uh so uh I mentioned before our Patreon, we've got exclusive content, including me, yours truly, presenting to you, the fair patron, uh, who pays for our pays for our podcast to be produced and put online. I put out content. Uh it is a 30-plus minute how to speak publicly and tell stories seminar. And we got some feedback, and I just want to love this. It has actionable steps not covered in many books and courses I've taken over the years. Firstly, thank you for that delightful feedback. So really appreciate hearing that. I'd love to also hear what your experience is if you take any of those tips and apply them. If you learn something new, share it with me. But I mean, if you're not a Patreon, you gotta get in there. You're you're missing out.
SPEAKER_01You know, I'm literally gonna use this for a presentation I have next week. I'm so I'm so pumped to check it out, try it out, actually build my presentation from it.
SPEAKER_02Did you pay?
SPEAKER_01You gotta give. Of course I paid.
SPEAKER_02You get one. Okay. You gotta give. CalicoCutPants.com. Uh, if you're not a member of our Patreon, you can get access to it by going to the link right below you. In that same link, believe it or not, Michael. Believe it or not. What? Discord. Oh, I do believe it. We got a whole active community on Discord where there's a great conversation about folks that don't like agile. And I I so I so want to get involved. I just haven't had time because every day is Wednesday this week. But I see you, I see both of you. We're gonna have a talk. Um I've got opinions too. We have opinions, we're very pro-agile here. Join the Discord, join the conversation. It's a great place. It is. We love all of our Discordis, we love our Patreons, and we just love you if you're watching this or if you listen to this. Uh, please share it with your friends, family, neighbors, coworkers, especially the toxic ones. They hate us because they ain't us. So share it with them, make them feel bad. And thanks as always for being a good listener, viewer, audience, participant. All the things. Until next time. I'm Anthony.
SPEAKER_01I'm Michael.
